How can I refuel submarines at sea?

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HansBolter
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RE: How can I refuel submarines at sea?

Post by HansBolter »

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Any ship out of fuel moves one hex each turn.  Eventually it will reach port unless attacked.


Don't they also accumulate damage?

If that is so, then they make take sufficient damage to sink them before they reach port if the distance to cover is great.
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RE: How can I refuel submarines at sea?

Post by PaxMondo »

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Any ship out of fuel moves one hex each turn.  Eventually it will reach port unless attacked.


Don't they also accumulate damage?

If that is so, then they make take sufficient damage to sink them before they reach port if the distance to cover is great.
I don't think so. I've had ships run out of fuel near Koepang and make it all the way to Perth, the closest port with fuel. So if they accumulate damage, it isn't much because that was like 50 turns or so to make that trip.*

*It was a little AM I think that had only like 600 range ... trying to go from Batavia to Perth. [:D]
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RE: How can I refuel submarines at sea?

Post by Treetop64 »

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I know that historically submarine tenders did refuel and resupplied subs at sea, but I guess this is game engine limitation.

Not in the US Navy. The game is correct.


Only the Kriegsmarine did this, and only with a few other U-boats loaded with fuel, and this was done more out of desperation since their boats were eventually being sunk left and right, and were forced to keep what boats they had left out on patrols for longer periods to compensate. Sub tenders only tended to subs at port, usually where shore facilities weren't adequate for this.

Not a limitation of the game engine since TFs can be refuelled at sea. I suspect it's simply a deliberate design limitation to keep players from keeping their subs at sea forever.
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RE: How can I refuel submarines at sea?

Post by crsutton »

Here is a thought. Can you just send a few other subs out and combine them with the out of fuel sub into a TF and then click the replenish at sea button? A regular TF will result in the other ships sharing their fuel. Dunno if it will work for subs.
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RE: How can I refuel submarines at sea?

Post by obvert »

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ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Any ship out of fuel moves one hex each turn.  Eventually it will reach port unless attacked.


Don't they also accumulate damage?

If that is so, then they make take sufficient damage to sink them before they reach port if the distance to cover is great.
I don't think so. I've had ships run out of fuel near Koepang and make it all the way to Perth, the closest port with fuel. So if they accumulate damage, it isn't much because that was like 50 turns or so to make that trip.*

*It was a little AM I think that had only like 600 range ... trying to go from Batavia to Perth. [:D]

Subs do accumulate damage when out of fuel, and quite quickly. I had a midget sub delivery going and forgot about the mother ship. It sat for a few weeks in the same spot and ran out of fuel. It had some damage when I began moving it back from South of Fiji, and only made it to Ndeni because it travelled the last few hexes at 99 damage. (I've just now, probably over 6 months later, begun moving it to Truk, and it still is at 78 system damage).

I've had all kinds of ships run out of fuel and collect damage though. It definitely can sink the ship.
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RE: How can I refuel submarines at sea?

Post by Cap Mandrake »

I have one S boat that has been stuck on a little atoll south of the Marshalls for 16 months after they ran out of gas. I probably should have just sent them to Fiji and fixed the damage later but now I am curious to see if they can spend the whole war there.
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RE: How can I refuel submarines at sea?

Post by AirGriff »

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I have one S boat that has been stuck on a little atoll south of the Marshalls for 16 months after they ran out of gas. I probably should have just sent them to Fiji and fixed the damage later but now I am curious to see if they can spend the whole war there.


Ha! Give it a try. True story--One of my neighbor's dad was on a DD that was sunk in the PI. It was either a torpedo from a sub or a kamikaze, she can't remember, but that's what I gathered from the bits and pieces she told me. Anyway, her dad and the sad to say few survivors made it to one of the islands. They spent a leisurely month or two among the natives before they finally decided to look for "rescue". Sounded like they had a pretty nice time being shipwrecked. So, what the heck...let that sub of yours hang out!
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RE: How can I refuel submarines at sea?

Post by jmalter »

ughfortunately, the mortally-wounded Capt. Lawrence's shipmates were forced to 'give up the ship'. USS Chesapeake was decisively defeated by HMS Shannon after a furious 15-minute cannonade/boarding action (1 June 1813). the British buried him at Halifax w/ military honors.

Oliver Perry named his brig 'USS Lawrence' in memory of his dead friend, & fought her under the banner "Don't Give Up the Ship" at the battle of Lake Erie (10 September 1813). USS Lawrence was badly damaged, but Perry transferred to her sister, USS Niagara, & achieved a Nelsonian victory over the British squadron. his subsequent dispatch to headquarters provided another famous phrase to our young navy's history: "We have met the enemy and they are ours."
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RE: How can I refuel submarines at sea?

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

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ughfortunately, the mortally-wounded Capt. Lawrence's shipmates were forced to 'give up the ship'. USS Chesapeake was decisively defeated by HMS Shannon after a furious 15-minute cannonade/boarding action (1 June 1813). the British buried him at Halifax w/ military honors.

Oliver Perry named his brig 'USS Lawrence' in memory of his dead friend, & fought her under the banner "Don't Give Up the Ship" at the battle of Lake Erie (10 September 1813). USS Lawrence was badly damaged, but Perry transferred to her sister, USS Niagara, & achieved a Nelsonian victory over the British squadron. his subsequent dispatch to headquarters provided another famous phrase to our young navy's history: "We have met the enemy and they are ours."

All true.

This battle, which lasted at most fifteen minutes, is among the bloodiest in the history of ship-to-ship combat. It was also mentioned in Robert Heinlein's "Starship Troopers" wherein Chesapeake's third lieutenant--a billet not a rank--left his battlestation to help carry mortaly wounded Lawrence below. In the boarding melee the officers senior to him were killed and he became the commanding oficer while belowdecks. He was later court martialed for leaving his station without orders during battle and being absent while commanding officer.

Lawrence has had several USN ships named for him, the last being a guided missile cruiser I believe.
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RE: How can I refuel submarines at sea?

Post by AW1Steve »

US submarines refueled seaplanes, exchanged cargo , parts and passengers by rubber boat , and attempted to pull each other off rocks. What is so terribly impossible to imagine one US sub crew trying to help another in extremis? This is the same service that in the 1920's SAILED a sub back to PH that had run out of fuel. Frankly , I feel this is simply a limitation that was chosen by the developers to either limit the game or because of coding issues. Like the issue of NOT being able to use USMC Raiders in the purpose they were designed, (as sub borne raiders) while using USMC para's in the Raider role, we need to "suck it up" , adjust, and live with it. It is a fact of the game. No house rule can fix it.


The fact is , all but the most anal retentive will probably lose a sub or two. Maybe the JFB's will consider this and throw the occassional bone to the AFB in "gamey" discussions or house rule negoitiations. Game limitations will affect both sides. If looked at as single issues , one side or the other will scream "unfair". If you take all the issues and put them in a pot together , it pretty much comes out equal.

To me , this is just one more example of why people who truly love this game should consider a "shut up and play" attitude . [:D]
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RE: How can I refuel submarines at sea?

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

US submarines refueled seaplanes, exchanged cargo , parts and passengers by rubber boat , and attempted to pull each other off rocks. What is so terribly impossible to imagine one US sub crew trying to help another in extremis?


I'm not 100% certain, but pretty sure, that subs on patrol carried neither fuel hose nor tank fittings to refuel another. The fittings could have been in the ER, but hose would need to ride outside the pressure hull in free flood areas due to volume. And no matter how well you clean a fuel hose it leaves a sheen when immersed.

Subs often left their anchors and chain with the tender at Midway, as well as lifelines and stanchions, plus their torpedo loading skids, which also rode in the superstructure. Everything which could make noise or be knocked loose in a DC attack was cut away and left behind. Taking a hundred feet of fuel hose along on the chance a fellow boat would need a drink? Unlikely.

I will neither confirm nor deny that modern SSNs leaving on sensitive missions today engage in this same behavior. Unless you've ridden the boats you have no idea how much bubbleheads HATE stray own-ship noise.
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RE: How can I refuel submarines at sea?

Post by AW1Steve »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

US submarines refueled seaplanes, exchanged cargo , parts and passengers by rubber boat , and attempted to pull each other off rocks. What is so terribly impossible to imagine one US sub crew trying to help another in extremis?


I'm not 100% certain, but pretty sure, that subs on patrol carried neither fuel hose nor tank fittings to refuel another. The fittings could have been in the ER, but hose would need to ride outside the pressure hull in free flood areas due to volume. And no matter how well you clean a fuel hose it leaves a sheen when immersed.

Subs often left their anchors and chain with the tender at Midway, as well as lifelines and stanchions, plus their torpedo loading skids, which also rode in the superstructure. Everything which could make noise or be knocked loose in a DC attack was cut away and left behind. Taking a hundred feet of fuel hose along on the chance a fellow boat would need a drink? Unlikely.

I will neither confirm nor deny that modern SSNs leaving on sensitive missions today engage in this same behavior. Unless you've ridden the boats you have no idea how much bubbleheads HATE stray own-ship noise.


Having both talked with them on exchanges, and hunted them , I've got a pretty good idea and why. But todays Nuke submariners are a different breed than the diesel boat crews, by design and trying. Adm Flucky once told me that a modern sub sailor was generally horrified at some of the "stunts" he and his fellow wartime diesel boat skippers used to do.

My problem is that I cannot imagine any US sailor , especially with one of the submarine service, saying "too bad buddy , we don't have a hose. Guess you are just screwed". [X(]
I can imagine them doing above and beyond service trying to save them, up to and including running a rubber boat between the boats with five gallon cans, if that was all they had. [:(] I just don't see them giving up. This is a branch of the service that was legendary for comming up with innovated solutions to "impossible" problems. Sorry. I just can't visualize it. [:(]
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RE: How can I refuel submarines at sea?

Post by rms1pa »

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

US submarines refueled seaplanes, exchanged cargo , parts and passengers by rubber boat , and attempted to pull each other off rocks. What is so terribly impossible to imagine one US sub crew trying to help another in extremis? This is the same service that in the 1920's SAILED a sub back to PH that had run out of fuel. Frankly , I feel this is simply a limitation that was chosen by the developers to either limit the game or because of coding issues. Like the issue of NOT being able to use USMC Raiders in the purpose they were designed, (as sub borne raiders) while using USMC para's in the Raider role, we need to "suck it up" , adjust, and live with it. It is a fact of the game. No house rule can fix it.


The fact is , all but the most anal retentive will probably lose a sub or two. Maybe the JFB's will consider this and throw the occassional bone to the AFB in "gamey" discussions or house rule negoitiations. Game limitations will affect both sides. If looked at as single issues , one side or the other will scream "unfair". If you take all the issues and put them in a pot together , it pretty much comes out equal.

To me , this is just one more example of why people who truly love this game should consider a "shut up and play" attitude . [:D]
[&o][&o] this.

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RE: How can I refuel submarines at sea?

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

US submarines refueled seaplanes, exchanged cargo , parts and passengers by rubber boat , and attempted to pull each other off rocks. What is so terribly impossible to imagine one US sub crew trying to help another in extremis?


I'm not 100% certain, but pretty sure, that subs on patrol carried neither fuel hose nor tank fittings to refuel another. The fittings could have been in the ER, but hose would need to ride outside the pressure hull in free flood areas due to volume. And no matter how well you clean a fuel hose it leaves a sheen when immersed.

Subs often left their anchors and chain with the tender at Midway, as well as lifelines and stanchions, plus their torpedo loading skids, which also rode in the superstructure. Everything which could make noise or be knocked loose in a DC attack was cut away and left behind. Taking a hundred feet of fuel hose along on the chance a fellow boat would need a drink? Unlikely.

I will neither confirm nor deny that modern SSNs leaving on sensitive missions today engage in this same behavior. Unless you've ridden the boats you have no idea how much bubbleheads HATE stray own-ship noise.


Having both talked with them on exchanges, and hunted them , I've got a pretty good idea and why. But todays Nuke submariners are a different breed than the diesel boat crews, by design and trying. Adm Flucky once told me that a modern sub sailor was generally horrified at some of the "stunts" he and his fellow wartime diesel boat skippers used to do.

My problem is that I cannot imagine any US sailor , especially with one of the submarine service, saying "too bad buddy , we don't have a hose. Guess you are just screwed". [X(]
I can imagine them doing above and beyond service trying to save them, up to and including running a rubber boat between the boats with five gallon cans, if that was all they had. [:(] I just don't see them giving up. This is a branch of the service that was legendary for comming up with innovated solutions to "impossible" problems. Sorry. I just can't visualize it. [:(]

First they have to radio they're out of gas. That attracts attention. Then another boat has to be close enough to help. That's unlikely. Then there has to be land without enemy which the out-of-fuel-boat can get to. If they're adrift the rescuer never finds them. Then the rescuer has to have fuel to spare; unless they're in the first third of the patrol that's unlikely. Then both subs have to stay exposed, in shallow water or moored to an island, a long, long time to do a transfer without hoses. We're talking thousands and thousands of gallons to get back to Midway. Then, they don't have any five gallon cans. [:)]

Speculate all you want. It never happened.

Admiral Fluckey well knew the complexities of modern SSNs and the dangers of going off script with nuclear power. In a hot shooting war who knows? You might battleshort a reactor. But drive an SSN into water too shallow to dive? Nope.

He was a speaker at the commissioning of my boat BTW.
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RE: How can I refuel submarines at sea?

Post by AW1Steve »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58




I'm not 100% certain, but pretty sure, that subs on patrol carried neither fuel hose nor tank fittings to refuel another. The fittings could have been in the ER, but hose would need to ride outside the pressure hull in free flood areas due to volume. And no matter how well you clean a fuel hose it leaves a sheen when immersed.

Subs often left their anchors and chain with the tender at Midway, as well as lifelines and stanchions, plus their torpedo loading skids, which also rode in the superstructure. Everything which could make noise or be knocked loose in a DC attack was cut away and left behind. Taking a hundred feet of fuel hose along on the chance a fellow boat would need a drink? Unlikely.

I will neither confirm nor deny that modern SSNs leaving on sensitive missions today engage in this same behavior. Unless you've ridden the boats you have no idea how much bubbleheads HATE stray own-ship noise.


Having both talked with them on exchanges, and hunted them , I've got a pretty good idea and why. But todays Nuke submariners are a different breed than the diesel boat crews, by design and trying. Adm Flucky once told me that a modern sub sailor was generally horrified at some of the "stunts" he and his fellow wartime diesel boat skippers used to do.

My problem is that I cannot imagine any US sailor , especially with one of the submarine service, saying "too bad buddy , we don't have a hose. Guess you are just screwed". [X(]
I can imagine them doing above and beyond service trying to save them, up to and including running a rubber boat between the boats with five gallon cans, if that was all they had. [:(] I just don't see them giving up. This is a branch of the service that was legendary for comming up with innovated solutions to "impossible" problems. Sorry. I just can't visualize it. [:(]

First they have to radio they're out of gas. That attracts attention. Then another boat has to be close enough to help. That's unlikely. Then there has to be land without enemy which the out-of-fuel-boat can get to. If they're adrift the rescuer never finds them. Then the rescuer has to have fuel to spare; unless they're in the first third of the patrol that's unlikely. Then both subs have to stay exposed, in shallow water or moored to an island, a long, long time to do a transfer without hoses. We're talking thousands and thousands of galons to get back to Midway. Then, they don't have any five gallon cans. [:)]

Speculate all you want. It never happened.

Admiral Fluckey well knew the complexities of modern SSNs and the dangers of going off script with nuclear power. In a hot shooting war who knows? You might battleshort a reactor. But drive an SSN into water too shallow to dive? Nope.

He was a speaker at the commissioning of my boat BTW.

All perfectly true. And there was a reason WHY Rickhover allowed very few WW2 Sub skippers (Wilkenson and Beach are the only two that come to mind, but I'm sure there were others) because he didn't want a cowboy mentality. A SSN or SSBN is a VERY,VERY expensive ship, and a nuclear reactor extremely dangerous. A WW2 fleet boat on the other hand was pretty cheap. (Of course there is the human cost , but this is a war that had just written off hundreds of thousands during the fall of the PI, and when you are talking about the daily deaths of thousands , taking a risk with less then 100 men is easy. Cold, but true).

Sub crews today won't radio, but sub's were used in wolf packs in WW2. (OK, the USN ones only had 3-6 boats, but one carried a Commodore or Captain , and they didn't coordinate by telepathy). All I'm saying is that a justifyable risk might be taken. And to save a fellow sub crew? Absolutely. The Darter and Dace incident show this. So does the incident of trying to save that Dutch boat (I forget the number). Even though both these incidents were unsuccessful, attempts were made.


I'm glad you got to hear Gene Flucky. He was an amazing man and patriot. I was very lucky that I had several book signings with him when I was with the Navy Memmorial bookstore. While it's a pain for the authors, it's a great opportunity for staff to pick their brains (as the poor guy often had hours of standing or sitting around waiting for customers.) But I think Adm Flucky , like a great many of the WW2 boat drivers, felt that their boats were expendable , in a good cause. And even if a sub couldn't be refueled, I could imagine them trying to tow it. And of course if all else fails , take off the unfortunate crew and scuttle the boat.

I also can't imagine a boat crew that was said unfortunate crew, sitting there and saying "ok we're screwed lets sit here and die because we are afraid to use the radio." What did they have to lose? As the old saying goes, "if you fall off a building , you might as well try and learn how to fly". What have you got to lose? [:)]
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RE: How can I refuel submarines at sea?

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

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All perfectly true. And there was a reason WHY Rickhover allowed very few WW2 Sub skippers (Wilkenson and Beach are the only two that come to mind, but I'm sure there were others)

A lot of it was age. Most of the younger WWII COs were Reserve and didn't stay in. The Academy guys who were LCDRs in 1945 were O-6s by the mid-50s, or retired. Rickover didn't have the god-like powers over NR from the first day either. He was an O-6 with no combat experience. To some extent he took who they sent, although he always did the interviews.

Sub crews today won't radio, but sub's were used in wolf packs in WW2.

We usually didn't call them that. And they didn't start until 1944, really after mid-year. To a great extent they didn't communicate once in the patrol area. They had lines of operation to prevent blue-on-blue.

For the first two years a fleet boat leaving Midway headed west was utterly alone in a way no other operating unit in the war was. There was no help, there was no medevac, there was no fuel, there were no parts. I don't think players of the game fully grasp that.


(OK, the USN ones only had 3-6 boats, but one carried a Commodore or Captain , and they didn't coordinate by telepathy). All I'm saying is that a justifyable risk might be taken. And to save a fellow sub crew? Absolutely. The Darter and Dace incident show this. So does the incident of trying to save that Dutch boat (I forget the number). Even though both these incidents were unsuccessful, attempts were made.

Darter and Dace were operating in support of a fleet action. They weren't on a normal patrol. Also late war.

I'm glad you got to hear Gene Flucky.

Umm, no. I was six when my boat was commissioned. [:)] We had photos in the wardroom scrapbook.

He was an amazing man and patriot. I was very lucky that I had several book signings with him when I was with the Navy Memmorial bookstore. While it's a pain for the authors, it's a great opportunity for staff to pick their brains (as the poor guy often had hours of standing or sitting around waiting for customers.) But I think Adm Flucky , like a great many of the WW2 boat drivers, felt that their boats were expendable , in a good cause. And even if a sub couldn't be refueled, I could imagine them trying to tow it. And of course if all else fails , take off the unfortunate crew and scuttle the boat.

I also can't imagine a boat crew that was said unfortunate crew, sitting there and saying "ok we're screwed lets sit here and die because we are afraid to use the radio." What did they have to lose? As the old saying goes, "if you fall off a building , you might as well try and learn how to fly". What have you got to lose? [:)]

They would have radioed. But unlike in the game, a boat without fuel doens't make one hex a day. Adrift, nobody would have found them. You know how big the Pacific is.
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RE: How can I refuel submarines at sea?

Post by AirGriff »

If memory serves, the manual states the 1 hex a day move for a ship out of fuel simulates a ship in tow. So, in the game universe, the gaming gods said let it be and that's the way it is [&o]
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RE: How can I refuel submarines at sea?

Post by AW1Steve »

ORIGINAL: AirGriff

If memory serves, the manual states the 1 hex a day move for a ship out of fuel simulates a ship in tow. So, in the game universe, the gaming gods said let it be and that's the way it is [&o]


Excellent point. Again, the designers compromised for the sake of playability. Usually a ship (or sub) can't tow themselves. [:D]

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RE: How can I refuel submarines at sea?

Post by aphrochine »

Bottom line, route those retiring S-boats through Pearl with Full Refuel turned on for that waypoint. ;-)
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RE: How can I refuel submarines at sea?

Post by jmalter »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: jmalter

ughfortunately, the mortally-wounded Capt. Lawrence's shipmates were forced to 'give up the ship'. USS Chesapeake was decisively defeated by HMS Shannon after a furious 15-minute cannonade/boarding action (1 June 1813). the British buried him at Halifax w/ military honors.

Oliver Perry named his brig 'USS Lawrence' in memory of his dead friend, & fought her under the banner "Don't Give Up the Ship" at the battle of Lake Erie (10 September 1813). USS Lawrence was badly damaged, but Perry transferred to her sister, USS Niagara, & achieved a Nelsonian victory over the British squadron. his subsequent dispatch to headquarters provided another famous phrase to our young navy's history: "We have met the enemy and they are ours."

All true.

This battle, which lasted at most fifteen minutes, is among the bloodiest in the history of ship-to-ship combat. It was also mentioned in Robert Heinlein's "Starship Troopers" wherein Chesapeake's third lieutenant--a billet not a rank--left his battlestation to help carry mortaly wounded Lawrence below. In the boarding melee the officers senior to him were killed and he became the commanding oficer while belowdecks. He was later court martialed for leaving his station without orders during battle and being absent while commanding officer.

Lawrence has had several USN ships named for him, the last being a guided missile cruiser I believe.
hi Moose,
i'd totally forgot that Heinlein's 1959 book specifically mentioned this action, as an example of a 4th-dogsbody who suddenly became CO after the ship's officer corps was destroyed by Shannon's fire. Heinlein is out, though - he wrote, "This boy’s family tried for a century and a half to get his conviction reversed. No luck, of course. There was doubt about some circumstances but no doubt that he had left his post during battle without orders."

Midshipman William Cox had been appointed acting-lieutenant aboard USS Cheasapeake. after helping carry the wounded Capt. Lawrence to the surgeon's station, he was trapped below-decks by the British boarders.

"It fell on Cox’s descendants to pursue his vindication. His son, William Cox, was once expelled from Lafayette College for striking a professor who called his father a coward. When Theodore Roosevelt wrote in his book The Naval War of 1812 (1882) that Cox had acted “basely,” family members protested so vigorously that the future president apologized and corrected his account in later editions. Moreover, for the next 134 years they wrote Congress and the Navy Department seeking to overturn the conviction and have his rank restored. Finally, in 1952 E. D. Litchfield, Cox’s great grandson, succeeded in bringing the matter to the attention of the House Armed Services Committee. Rear Adm. John D. Heffernan then outlined the historical facts for the committee and recommended his reinstatement. On April 7, 1952, Congress passed legislation to that effect and, once signed by President Harry Truman, Cox was formally, if posthumously, restored to the rank of third lieutenant." http://books.google.com/books?id=-7Mwvw ... &q&f=false

i'm fathering this on a webpage: http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/ar ... 12922.html

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