Rout Behavior
Moderators: Panther Paul, Arjuna
RE: Rout Behavior
pacwar,
I agree that routing units moving through non routing friendly units should have a chance of being stopped but history is full of examples where not only were they not stopped but the formed unit actually was affected by the routers and it too routed off. So at best it should only be a chance not a certainty. I will see what we can do.
By way of example as to how this can affect even crack troops read Ridgway's account of the battles to secure the causeways in Normandy. There is one that I recall in which the initial assault line of troops routed back right through the formed up ready to assault second line. See Chapter V of "Ridgway's Paratroopers" by Clay Blair, Quill 1985. And by the way the second line was so focussed on going forward, that it let the routers flee past them. It went on to secure the far bank and saved the day. So the ability of formed troops to halt another routing unit depends a lot on what they are doing at the time. If they were just on defence then I reckon the probability would be higher than if they are moving, assaulting or reorging.
I agree that routing units moving through non routing friendly units should have a chance of being stopped but history is full of examples where not only were they not stopped but the formed unit actually was affected by the routers and it too routed off. So at best it should only be a chance not a certainty. I will see what we can do.
By way of example as to how this can affect even crack troops read Ridgway's account of the battles to secure the causeways in Normandy. There is one that I recall in which the initial assault line of troops routed back right through the formed up ready to assault second line. See Chapter V of "Ridgway's Paratroopers" by Clay Blair, Quill 1985. And by the way the second line was so focussed on going forward, that it let the routers flee past them. It went on to secure the far bank and saved the day. So the ability of formed troops to halt another routing unit depends a lot on what they are doing at the time. If they were just on defence then I reckon the probability would be higher than if they are moving, assaulting or reorging.
RE: Rout Behavior
I am not a programmer so you may be correct, but given all the other factors that appear to influence the direction and length of routing units it doesn't seem it would that problematic to include proximity to friendly units as another factor for impacting the severity of the rout.
RE: Rout Behavior
Dave,
You raise some interesting points...as a miniatures wargamer I completely understand the concept of a front line unit routing through one behind...it would be interesting to know how far behind the routing unit the paratroopers in your example were...of course if a gaggle of men come bursting into your lines from rather close proximity there's not much you could do to stop them, particularly if you're in the midst of planning an attack yourself...I think rout can be divided into two phases, the inital disorganization and terror...friendly troops cannot affect that, but as the unit continues to move the all encompassing need to get away is replaced by a desire for safety and I think that could be provided by friendly units, particularly if the routing unit has moved over 2 kilometers. Let's say the first kilometer is dominated my abject fear but beyond that some sense of relief should affect their behavior.
You raise some interesting points...as a miniatures wargamer I completely understand the concept of a front line unit routing through one behind...it would be interesting to know how far behind the routing unit the paratroopers in your example were...of course if a gaggle of men come bursting into your lines from rather close proximity there's not much you could do to stop them, particularly if you're in the midst of planning an attack yourself...I think rout can be divided into two phases, the inital disorganization and terror...friendly troops cannot affect that, but as the unit continues to move the all encompassing need to get away is replaced by a desire for safety and I think that could be provided by friendly units, particularly if the routing unit has moved over 2 kilometers. Let's say the first kilometer is dominated my abject fear but beyond that some sense of relief should affect their behavior.
RE: Rout Behavior
Maybe if they rout through HQ units or through units with high leadership (Within voice communication so the footprints will have to cross each other) they should have more chance to stop?
RE: Rout Behavior
Does the local situation affect decisions like routing and retreating,i.e. if a unit routs does that increase the liklihood of routing/retreating for a nearby unit?
RE: Rout Behavior
wdkruger raises a good question...in my game the hq unit that routed was adjacent to two subordinates and routed through elements of another battalion. What impact does the routing unit have on units it moves through or adjacent units? We've already established the fact that the routing hq can impact its subordinate units by issuing revised orders once it recovers from the rout...does the fact that the hq unit ran away affect in any way the subordinate units...does it affect their morale?
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RE: Rout Behavior
Didn't Dave answer that question further up this thread?
RE: Rout Behavior
I might be blind, but I don't see this addressed.
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RE: Rout Behavior
It's more likely me that's blind.
He said; 'First off the presence or otherwise of other friendly forces is not going to slow down the routing unit.' And, 'I agree that routing units moving through non routing friendly units should have a chance of being stopped but history is full of examples where not only were they not stopped but the formed unit actually was affected by the routers and it too routed off. So at best it should only be a chance not a certainty. I will see what we can do.' And 'subordinates do not follow routing superiors. They will continue with their existing orders or until the superior replans.'
And from the discussion that followed these remarks - a propos of Panther possibly changing things - I thought he meant that a routing unit doesn't have an effect on other units and vice versa, even though it 'should'. Maybe I'm jumping the gun. Dave will have to clarify, I think.
He said; 'First off the presence or otherwise of other friendly forces is not going to slow down the routing unit.' And, 'I agree that routing units moving through non routing friendly units should have a chance of being stopped but history is full of examples where not only were they not stopped but the formed unit actually was affected by the routers and it too routed off. So at best it should only be a chance not a certainty. I will see what we can do.' And 'subordinates do not follow routing superiors. They will continue with their existing orders or until the superior replans.'
And from the discussion that followed these remarks - a propos of Panther possibly changing things - I thought he meant that a routing unit doesn't have an effect on other units and vice versa, even though it 'should'. Maybe I'm jumping the gun. Dave will have to clarify, I think.
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RE: Rout Behavior
Ah. Now I put my brain in gear I see all his comments were about the affects of other units on a routing unit, not vice versa. So, yes, I too wonder what the position is...
RE: Rout Behavior
OK so we have two different issues here. One is what affects a unit to rout and what affects it during the rout. The decision to Rout is first kicked off by a UnitMoraleCheck() function. This occurs each minute. I won't go into all the details as the algorythm runs for 500 lines. Suffice to say that yes it factors in nearby friendly ( and enemy ) retreaters. It determines the differential in retreat/rout personnel between friendly and enemy troops. The adjustment applied to the morale level will vary between 10 and 40%. Typically if there were 300 other friendly retreaters/routers nearby and no enemy then the effect would be to reduce the morale by around 16%. BTW the function also factors in the presence of a nearby superior HQ, adding in a mod based on its leadership, which could be negative if the guy is a jerk .
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RE: Rout Behavior
500 lines. Wow. Just for that. How many lines of code for the entire engine?
Thanks for the clarification.
Thanks for the clarification.
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RE: Rout Behavior
ORIGINAL: Arjuna
OK so we have two different issues here. One is what affects a unit to rout and what affects it during the rout. The decision to Rout is first kicked off by a UnitMoraleCheck() function. This occurs each minute. I won't go into all the details as the algorythm runs for 500 lines. Suffice to say that yes it factors in nearby friendly ( and enemy ) retreaters. It determines the differential in retreat/rout personnel between friendly and enemy troops. The adjustment applied to the morale level will vary between 10 and 40%. Typically if there were 300 other friendly retreaters/routers nearby and no enemy then the effect would be to reduce the morale by around 16%. BTW the function also factors in the presence of a nearby superior HQ, adding in a mod based on its leadership, which could be negative if the guy is a jerk .
Thanks, that´s quite valuable information! I´d already assumed, that presence and distance to friendly units/HQ plays a larger role in rout triggering (well, should´ve been obvious anyway).
So a more isolated (from other friendly) unit, is likely to get a rout trigger more oftenly (other factors left aside). Is physical distance a matter, or just visual distance? In example, two adjacent infantry Coys in a thick wood do not have LOS to each other, will it help to broaden the footprint of one or both, so they get in visual liaison to each other? Does that help for rout triggering, or avoiding?
Would be nice if statements like yours above, make it into the game manual anytime. [:)]
RE: Rout Behavior
ORIGINAL: phoenix
500 lines. Wow. Just for that. How many lines of code for the entire engine?
Thanks for the clarification.
Thats why fixes etc can take awhile..their dealing with a huge programme and I presume several thousand of lines of code minimum. It's why I say we have to be patient with CO, work wont stop on it even if it seems to take awhile to get a fix we'd like.
RE: Rout Behavior
Wodin,
Back in 2004 we actually did a line count and it was over half a million lines of code. It will be more now.
Back in 2004 we actually did a line count and it was over half a million lines of code. It will be more now.
RE: Rout Behavior
RockinHarry,
If I described in detail everything in the code the manuals would be so big no one would ever read them. I reckon most users would prefer I spend my limited time on coding rather than writing up manuals.
If I described in detail everything in the code the manuals would be so big no one would ever read them. I reckon most users would prefer I spend my limited time on coding rather than writing up manuals.
RE: Rout Behavior
Thanks for the details. I don't know about others, but the more I know about the engine the better.
RE: Rout Behavior
When I can I respond to questions here on this forum. So ask away but please be aware that I try and ration out my time so I can still make progress on development work.
RE: Rout Behavior
Dave I was trying to be very conservative in my estimation..I was going to say hundreds of thousand.
Hopefully when people know that they will realize what a huge task it is to debug and make fixes etc.
Hopefully when people know that they will realize what a huge task it is to debug and make fixes etc.
- RockinHarry
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RE: Rout Behavior
ORIGINAL: Arjuna
RockinHarry,
If I described in detail everything in the code the manuals would be so big no one would ever read them. I reckon most users would prefer I spend my limited time on coding rather than writing up manuals.
Well, not describing everything, rather supplementing key features that are asked for repeatedly in the forum. What about simovitch, MarkShot and Golf33, since these are mentioned to be suplementing authors for the manuals? [&:]