Production
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- Bullwinkle58
- Posts: 11297
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:47 pm
Production
Michael, a question has come up in my PBEM game concerning base supply production when enemy troops co-occupy the hex. The manual only speaks to resource and oil production being curtailed, and is silent on supplies. Some veteran players were convinced that supply production from HI and LI should continue if resources and fuel are present in the base. This was my impression as well.
At Singapore I have many thousands of each commodity, but there has been no supply production for three turns. A large enemy stack is sieging the base. No other Allied bases are held in Malaysia. I have tried production with stockpiling set both on and off.
Question: what does the current code provide? Are there quantity limit triggers on resources or fuel needed to produce? Are there troop ratio checks? Or have we been incorrect all this time on this mechanism?
At Singapore I have many thousands of each commodity, but there has been no supply production for three turns. A large enemy stack is sieging the base. No other Allied bases are held in Malaysia. I have tried production with stockpiling set both on and off.
Question: what does the current code provide? Are there quantity limit triggers on resources or fuel needed to produce? Are there troop ratio checks? Or have we been incorrect all this time on this mechanism?
The Moose
- michaelm75au
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- Location: Melbourne, Australia
RE: Production (No 1EyedJacks Please)
Code says:
If enemy land unit in hex, no production for -
Resources
Oil
HI
LI
Refinery
Manpower
If enemy land unit in hex, no production for -
Resources
Oil
HI
LI
Refinery
Manpower
Michael
- michaelm75au
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- Location: Melbourne, Australia
RE: Production (No 1EyedJacks Please)
Resources and Oil I can understand as these are usually outside a 'city' and can be interdicted by enemy forces.
I went back to the original AE release code and the enemy unit check was not present there for HI, LI, Refinery or Manpower. All of which could be considered to be 'inside a city'.
It must have been added during one of the patches but I couldn't identify when exactly.
[edit - added in patch 5 or 6]
I went back to the original AE release code and the enemy unit check was not present there for HI, LI, Refinery or Manpower. All of which could be considered to be 'inside a city'.
It must have been added during one of the patches but I couldn't identify when exactly.
[edit - added in patch 5 or 6]
Michael
- Bullwinkle58
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RE: Production
ORIGINAL: michaelm
Code says:
If enemy land unit in hex, no production for -
Resources
Oil
HI
LI
Refinery
Manpower
There it is. Clear.
The Moose
- Bullwinkle58
- Posts: 11297
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:47 pm
RE: Production
ORIGINAL: michaelm
Resources and Oil I can understand as these are usually outside a 'city' and can be interdicted by enemy forces.
I went back to the original AE release code and the enemy unit check was not present there for HI, LI, Refinery or Manpower. All of which could be considered to be 'inside a city'.
It must have been added during one of the patches but I couldn't identify when exactly.
[edit - added in patch 5 or 6]
That's probably the source of the confusion. I looked through the patch notes but didn't find it. Sometimes the descriptions are cryptic, for algorithm and other reasons I suppose. With this hint I'll look again, but the bottom line is I have the answer I need to tactically plan.
Thanks a lot for the quick answer.
The Moose
- Bullwinkle58
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RE: Production
I edited the title of this and will e-mail Mike to tell him it's fine for him to read. This is a big code change which significantly affects many types of land battles. Since some of our best players missed it in the patches it's only fair that everyone have access to the info.
The Moose
- SqzMyLemon
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RE: Production
This is a big deal Mr. Moose, thanks for posting your findings and getting clarification from michaelm. So I'm clear on this myself, occupy an enemy base and you effectively shut down production of all industry regardless of current stockpiles at the base. Correct?
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- Bullwinkle58
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- michaelm75au
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- Location: Melbourne, Australia
RE: Production
I am thinking of making the code reflect the manual and logic (and what players have generally thought to be the case).
HI and MP are global pools so I think having an enemy unit in the hex should stop them producing.
For LI and Refinery however, they are locally produced and stored at the base (and would be 'in the base') and could be generated with enemy presence in the hex.
It would not be a 'cheat', as damage to LI and REF devices would make it harder to produce supply/fuel.
I would like to add this change for the next weekend beta.
Any comments??
---
In original WITP, HI produced fuel and supply regardless of enemy units in hex.
HI and MP are global pools so I think having an enemy unit in the hex should stop them producing.
For LI and Refinery however, they are locally produced and stored at the base (and would be 'in the base') and could be generated with enemy presence in the hex.
It would not be a 'cheat', as damage to LI and REF devices would make it harder to produce supply/fuel.
I would like to add this change for the next weekend beta.
Any comments??
---
In original WITP, HI produced fuel and supply regardless of enemy units in hex.
Michael
RE: Production
That makes sense to me. If any one did object, then certainly the strongest case can be made for LI still producing.
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RE: Production
ORIGINAL: michaelm
I am thinking of making the code reflect the manual and logic (and what players have generally thought to be the case).
HI and MP are global pools so I think having an enemy unit in the hex should stop them producing.
For LI and Refinery however, they are locally produced and stored at the base (and would be 'in the base') and could be generated with enemy presence in the hex.
It would not be a 'cheat', as damage to LI and REF devices would make it harder to produce supply/fuel.
I would like to add this change for the next weekend beta.
Any comments??
---
In original WITP, HI produced fuel and supply regardless of enemy units in hex.
That would be an acceptable outcome.
I however approach it from a slightly different direction; more a "pure" economic rather than the current game design perspective. As such my personal preferred position is slightly different.
The game calls everything "industry". Using economic terminology we would distinguish between "primary industry" and "secondary industry". There is absolutely no "tertiary industry" facilities in the game, unless one were to view naval/aviation/support squads as falling within that category in abstract terms but as they are not treated as "industry" within the game, we can dismiss them as representing tertiary industry facilities.
Falling within "Primary Industry" are:
- resource centres
- oil centres
- manpower centres
They provide raw materials from the land.
Falling within "Secondary Industry" are:
- Refineries
- Light Industry
- Heavy Industry
- all the various production facilities which produce elaborately transformed products ie vehicles, aircraft, ships, armaments
Secondary industry uses the output from primary industry as its feedstock.
Therefore, if it were up to me and without proper consideration for the actual game code impact, I would stop primary industry production (ie oil, resources, manpower) when an enemy LCU is present in the same hex, but allow secondary industry (ie supply/fuel/elaborately transformed products) to continue production provided the facility continues to have access to its feedstock, either from local stockpiles or from importation.
But as I said, michaelm's approach is quite valid too. Whichever is the easiest to implement and most consistent with the overall game design philosophy is the one which should be preferred.
Alfred
- michaelm75au
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- Location: Melbourne, Australia
RE: Production
With proposed changes...
As "primary industry" is already covered (will stop if enemy unit in hex), the only industry from the 'secondary' group that wont get produced when enemy in hex is HI.
Another condition could be: if base is a port>3 and no enemy TFs present, allow HI production under assumption that it exports HI by 'blockade runners'[:D].
As "primary industry" is already covered (will stop if enemy unit in hex), the only industry from the 'secondary' group that wont get produced when enemy in hex is HI.
Another condition could be: if base is a port>3 and no enemy TFs present, allow HI production under assumption that it exports HI by 'blockade runners'[:D].
Michael
RE: Production
Micahel,
Your proposals sound good to me. I like the blockade runner concept ...
Thanks for the ongoing support.
Your proposals sound good to me. I like the blockade runner concept ...
Thanks for the ongoing support.
Pax
RE: Production
ORIGINAL: michaelm
I am thinking of making the code reflect the manual and logic (and what players have generally thought to be the case).
HI and MP are global pools so I think having an enemy unit in the hex should stop them producing.
For LI and Refinery however, they are locally produced and stored at the base (and would be 'in the base') and could be generated with enemy presence in the hex.
It would not be a 'cheat', as damage to LI and REF devices would make it harder to produce supply/fuel.
I would like to add this change for the next weekend beta.
Any comments??
---
In original WITP, HI produced fuel and supply regardless of enemy units in hex.
That sounds reasonable. HI should not produce if there's enemy unit in the hex.
RE: Production
Before going ahead with changes, what are the considerations for game balance in specific locations based on michaelm's proposal?
In the early game Manila will certainly become a more viable redoubt for last defense of Luzon should LI keep working. I cannot remember the stockpile offhand, but I seem to recall there is a good amount of resources at the base to begin and thus it could continue to produce LI for some time, feeding the Allied troops for an extended period.
Singapore could likewise get a boost for the defense based on these changes, as could any of the other industrial centers like Rangoon, Palembang or the Java bases.
Chinese bases would of course be prime examples for the change in balance, as the whole thread was started with this example in mind.
I'm not at all saying these changes will not be more 'realistic' or beneficial to both sides, or advocating that they should not be made. It just seems the since this is a major alteration that was once changed in the early stages of the game patches, what were the considerations then that led to the first decision and patch turning off all of these industries during occupation? What should be considered now based on greater knowledge and experience of playing the game through many different iterations?
In the early game Manila will certainly become a more viable redoubt for last defense of Luzon should LI keep working. I cannot remember the stockpile offhand, but I seem to recall there is a good amount of resources at the base to begin and thus it could continue to produce LI for some time, feeding the Allied troops for an extended period.
Singapore could likewise get a boost for the defense based on these changes, as could any of the other industrial centers like Rangoon, Palembang or the Java bases.
Chinese bases would of course be prime examples for the change in balance, as the whole thread was started with this example in mind.
I'm not at all saying these changes will not be more 'realistic' or beneficial to both sides, or advocating that they should not be made. It just seems the since this is a major alteration that was once changed in the early stages of the game patches, what were the considerations then that led to the first decision and patch turning off all of these industries during occupation? What should be considered now based on greater knowledge and experience of playing the game through many different iterations?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
-
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RE: Production
ORIGINAL: michaelm
With proposed changes...
As "primary industry" is already covered (will stop if enemy unit in hex), the only industry from the 'secondary' group that wont get produced when enemy in hex is HI.
Another condition could be: if base is a port>3 and no enemy TFs present, allow HI production under assumption that it exports HI by 'blockade runners'[:D].
All looks good to me. Having read obvert comments it is a concern that it might alter play balance but that's what a beta is for, testing so I'd go ahead and do it. One question, how much damage is done to industry in a land attack?
- michaelm75au
- Posts: 12455
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- Location: Melbourne, Australia
RE: Production
The change was made to the code but I can't find anything in the release notes or comments to say why this was changed. It could have been made to make the industry production code consistent - I just can't recall.
For scenario balance, there was no restriction on HI, LI, Refinery or Manpower production until patch 5 or 6. So if anything, I would expect that the current code would have more unbalancing effect than going back to what was properly used to set up the stock scenarios originally.
For scenario balance, there was no restriction on HI, LI, Refinery or Manpower production until patch 5 or 6. So if anything, I would expect that the current code would have more unbalancing effect than going back to what was properly used to set up the stock scenarios originally.
Michael
RE: Production
ORIGINAL: michaelm
HI and MP are global pools so I think having an enemy unit in the hex should stop them producing.
For LI and Refinery however, they are locally produced and stored at the base (and would be 'in the base') and could be generated with enemy presence in the hex.
Just to clarify, does this mean that HI wouldn't produce anything at all or just not HI points? HI also produces supply which is stored locally as LI does.
- michaelm75au
- Posts: 12455
- Joined: Sat May 05, 2001 8:00 am
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
RE: Production
Wont produce at all. If HI and LI in same hex, then the lack of HI production would enable LI to be produced, thus still giving supply.ORIGINAL: kjnoel
ORIGINAL: michaelm
HI and MP are global pools so I think having an enemy unit in the hex should stop them producing.
For LI and Refinery however, they are locally produced and stored at the base (and would be 'in the base') and could be generated with enemy presence in the hex.
Just to clarify, does this mean that HI wouldn't produce anything at all or just not HI points? HI also produces supply which is stored locally as LI does.
Michael
RE: Production
Considering the fact that we're exchanging ideas about this possible changement, i'd modestly suggest to keep in consideration that the present code is being working well and it seems to me that nobody mentioned in these months any balance problem with it.
I'd also offer another thought: many many ongoing games (both pbem and AI games) seems to have recently adopted the map with stacking limits (not only many mods, among them DBB, RA etc, but also stock games adopting the stacking limits map). Well, with stacking limits sieges of major bases or cities are already a challenge for the attacker. Even if out of supplies, the base may be able to hold for a looong time cause the attacker would never be able to get a numerical advantage. With stacking limits the present code works perfectly imho, cause it gives the chance to the attacker to actually be able to conquer a major city.
If the LI would keep on producing supplies i see many problems arising in a stacking limits map.
Manila is a good example. Singapore too obviously. But also in China... i don't see any possible chance to conquer Chungking, for example, if the LI would keep on producing supplies....
And if it's true that resources production would stop anyway, it's also true that very often the bases with LI have huge stockpiles of resources...
just my 0.000002 cents
I'd also offer another thought: many many ongoing games (both pbem and AI games) seems to have recently adopted the map with stacking limits (not only many mods, among them DBB, RA etc, but also stock games adopting the stacking limits map). Well, with stacking limits sieges of major bases or cities are already a challenge for the attacker. Even if out of supplies, the base may be able to hold for a looong time cause the attacker would never be able to get a numerical advantage. With stacking limits the present code works perfectly imho, cause it gives the chance to the attacker to actually be able to conquer a major city.
If the LI would keep on producing supplies i see many problems arising in a stacking limits map.
Manila is a good example. Singapore too obviously. But also in China... i don't see any possible chance to conquer Chungking, for example, if the LI would keep on producing supplies....
And if it's true that resources production would stop anyway, it's also true that very often the bases with LI have huge stockpiles of resources...
just my 0.000002 cents