Why can't i divide my CAGS into 3 groups?

[artuitus_slith]

Anyone know why we can't divide CAGS into 3 like land based groups? In particular fighter groups, so that i could divide them between med/hi cap and low cap with a 3rd group either resting or escorting a strike group.

[PaxMondo]

Be specific.  Some you can.  Others are restricted for the early part of the GC.  So which side, which groups, which scenario ....  need more data to assist.

[artuitus_slith]

sorry about that. American CV cags at the start of the GC. For the record I am playing scen 2, stock with the latest beta (at least latest about a week ago). US VF sqds can not be divided at the start of the game, which is a bit annoying since this is the period of the war I most need to split the VFs up, later in the war I'll have plenty of CV's to use and set entire squadrons to various missions. However early in the war I can't divide the VF squadrons and was wondering why it is that way? Like posted above, I'd like to divide my fighter squadrons into 3 -1 high lvl cap, 1 low level cap, and one escort/rest. It would be nice to be able to divide the dive bombers as well to put a few on asw at low alt while the rest retained their higher altitude for dive bombing missions, but I can live without that (that's what tbds are for right? :p

I am not calling it a bug, I'm sure it's working as intended, but was more curious the reasoning behind it and if it may be changed in a new patch? Without the ability to split groups it almost forces you to bunch your CVs up early in the game or give up the ability to layer cap. And I know you can add VMF units to the CVs. but they take 6 months to become carrier trained and suffer heavy losses as a result if used for cap. Interesting enough, I CAN divide VMF squadrons up, but not the navy VF squadrons.

[Sardaukar]

If those VFs are on CV, there used to be limit of max 5 air units to be on CV (I think it is still applying). That might be it. Note that some of CVs at start have extra air units (reinforcements to Wake & Midway), so you may not be able to split units on CV because of limitation.

[guytipton41]

Hi Gmoney,

There is a hard coded limit of 5 operational units on any CV. Splitting one of the VFs into 3 might put you over the limit (VF/3 X 3 + VF + VS + VB = 6) and I'm not sure that any of them will fly.

Cheers,
Guy

[artuitus_slith]

good point, but I just tested it and no dice. Even flying the VF sqd to pearl harbor at the start of the war still didn't let me divide them. Thanks for the reminder of the '5 unit' rule, since I almost divided the Marine corp units up on the CV-that could have been messy lol. So its def coded into the game, I'm just curious why...

[rms1pa]

not so much from a game point of view,

i would think the administrative overhead costs to the then limited supply of trained officers would mitigate against this.

spliting a VF into three groups so you can have some on Naval/Sweep/Escort sounds neat but ouch. this was historicly handled by having some carriers specializing , one carrier on night ops another handling escort and another handling CAP.

the US naval officer corp at the start of the war was very small.
the expansion was beginning but not yet in the fleet.

rms/pa

[artuitus_slith]

That may be, however IRL you wouldn't have to divide the groups and assign new 'leaders' you would simply tell element/flight x to fly at y alt at location z until relieved or ordered back to the deck. That is the essence of a chain of command, you delegate orders to your subordinates and (if you have done your job well training them) they carry out said orders. I understand this is a game, and as such there are certain limitations, what I was hoping to get was a solid answer from someone who knows as to why the US Cags at the start of the war can't be split up.

Please don't take offense to this post, I was in no way 'flaming' or belittling you or your post, just explaining things as I see them.

[Barb]

Well, as to delegating, you can do it yourself - set your VF to some mid-altitude along with bombers.
Game itself reacts - you do have radar and the game will vector part of your CAP towards it - be it low or high.
Having bombers flying at the same altitude as fighters has the benefit of better coordination - for example, I tend to fly all my CAGs at 15k alt at the begining.

[artuitus_slith]

I'm aware of that, however that doesn't accomplish what i want to do . I want to divide my fighter groups up into 3 flights, and have each flight assigned a different mission. By assigning 2 flights to cap at different altitudes, one medium `12k and the other low `5k i cover both dive bombers and torpedo bomber attacks. I can then set these fights at 40% cap and have the rest available for scramble, giving me the best possible cap coverage while keeping the third group in reserve to escort strikes. currently if set to escort, any fighters in a group not flying cap are sent with the raid, only way to avoid this is to set the fighters range to less than the raid range, which then leaves your strike group completely unescorted. heck, I'd even take dividing my Sqds into half, otherwise I'll have to fly off the Torpedo bombers early in the war until the VS squadrons are joined to the bomber squadrons.

[rms1pa]

ah so desku,

the VF will (sometimes) escort VT strikes even if at VB altitudes
when set on escort. of course sometimes you get no escort at all.

WAD

rms/pa

[msieving1]

ORIGINAL: gmoney

good point, but I just tested it and no dice. Even flying the VF sqd to pearl harbor at the start of the war still didn't let me divide them. Thanks for the reminder of the '5 unit' rule, since I almost divided the Marine corp units up on the CV-that could have been messy lol. So its def coded into the game, I'm just curious why...

It's not hard coded. The number of subunits that an airgroup can divide into is defined in the editor, using the "Max Splits" parameter.

[crsutton]

In stock you cannot divide VF fighter units into sub units. The only squadrons that the Allied can divide at all are recon squadrons. No others. Nor can you combine fighters into groups like you used to be able to in the old WITP.

You can however, re-size them into any size you want when they are on any carrier. I frequently up-size some of my fighter squadrons. However, given the shortage of fighters units for the Allies early in the game. I can see where you would not want to make full squadrons any smaller.

In addition, I don't recommend using your precious carrier pilots and fighters much at all in the first year of the war. The replacement rate is so low that you will need to reserve all of them for carrier fights. One big carrier battle in 1942, even if you win, will eat up all of your front line naval aircraft. Better nurse them and keep a reserve. I use them ashore in emergencies or if there is a big opportunity but otherwise I don't waste them.

[artuitus_slith]

crsutton, are you saying that no vf or carrier squadron can divide for the allies for the entire game? I know I can divide land based units at will, and have done so in certain situations, so at least some Allied units (I'd venture most land based units) can do so. As to use of the US CVs, playing the AI is generally more forgiving than playing a human, and allows the allies the opportunity to use their carriers in a more historical manner, raiding jap outposts and convoys. I agree that a fight with the KB (if intact) should be avoided like the plague, but training only gets you so far, in order to have the most effective and skilled warriors they need combat experience.

Msieving, can this be changed during a game, or would it require a restart?

[crsutton]

I am playing the stock game and the only land based air unit that I have ever seen that can divide is recon squadrons-which typically can divide into three sub units.

No other Allied land based air unit can be divided. You are not playing a mod are you?

[artuitus_slith]

stock game scen 2 with the beta. But even before i played the beta Land based allied (American) air groups could divide. I divided a P39 squadron into 3 groups to cover merauke (sp? last dutch base southern New guinea), Horn Island and cooktown from long range Jap bomber missions. worked great and so i divided another p40 group up to cover high/low and escort missions at PM. Just can't divide carrier based Air groups for some reason.

[artuitus_slith]

just did a check in both my current game and the previous game i quit (to make sure i wasn't losing my mind), it seems almost random what units can split and which one's can't. Not sure why but it is interesting.

Point in case, VMF 111 and 121 can both divide, while VMF 211 can not. The marine corp bomber groups all seem able to divide, don't have any Marine Corp Torpedo bombers to test on yet though (only in late dec 42). All full size US Army Air Corp units can divide, even the small 8 plane bomber squadrons. (full size not full strength, even under strength units can divide) While I haven't gone through every squadron in play at the moment, it seems that all allied units with a few exception can divide into 3 equal groups-exceptions being any carrier based unit and at least 1 marine corp unit, though that may be just because it has detachments active.

Def something different about the CV planes, but for sure you can divide your USAAF units into 'flights'. Maybe the game reserves the ability to divide units for CV units so that some of the aircraft can survive a CV sinking and thus you can't have them divided up before hand? IDK.

[msieving1]

Msieving, can this be changed during a game, or would it require a restart?

Offhand, I don't know. There are some database changes that will be picked up in an ongoing games, but I don't know if this is one of them.