Bring me the head of Diego Garcia...and the Mayor of Addu Atoll too!

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: sprior

Slim hasn't been mentioned

That's a shame. Get Defeat into Victory if you haven't already read it.

I would totally agree with you sprior. Slim not only had to fight the IJ .. but his own planners convincing them of what is possible along with fightihng egos required to the reorganize forces. I might contend that if General Slim had been in charge in 1942 he would have executed Extended Captial and put the IJ on thier heels two years early.

[Cap Mandrake]

The thesis of Ricks' book is the damage to the US Army caused partly by the gradual cultural change associated with the elimination of the quick battlefield relief of general officers.

The only two British generals mentioned other than in passing are Montgomery (Eisenhower could barely stand to be around) and Alexander (portrayed very favorably).

The business about Montgomery appearing to take credit for British troops conming to the aid of American troops in the Battle of the Bulge is said to have nearly caused Eisenhower to stroke out.

Montgomery, when asked about it later, seems to have thought he was just trying to show a combined Allied effort. Sometimes I wonder if Montgomery had Asperger's syndrome. [:)]

[Cap Mandrake]

Arried troops on Taytay are ARIVE!

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The thesis of Ricks' book is the damage to the US Army caused partly by the gradual cultural change associated with the elimination of the quick battlefield relief of general officers.

The only two British generals mentioned other than in passing are Montgomery (Eisenhower could barely stand to be around) and Alexander (portrayed very favorably).

The business about Montgomery appearing to take credit for British troops conming to the aid of American troops in the Battle of the Bulge is said to have nearly caused Eisenhower to stroke out.

Montgomery, when asked about it later, seems to have thought he was just trying to show a combined Allied effort. Sometimes I wonder if Montgomery had Asperger's syndrome. [:)]

Hmmm I am thinking one of the DSM V diagnosis ... narcissistic sociopath comes to mind [8D]

[witpqs]

In Antony Beevor's D-Day, he talked about how little use Eisenhower had for Montgomery, and about Monty's habit of never admitting any mistep. He quotes Ike years later when he was President as saying (as best I recall it) "The man was psychotic. He never made a mistake in his life."

[sprior]

Commonwealth had already taken tremendous casulties

Monty was under tremendous pressure from Churchill to cut back on casualties. During the Normandy campaign the troops suffered loss rates close if not equal to WW1 rates. After that the UK was breaking up combat and support units to keep other units up to strength.

Part of the reason Monty was so popular with the rank and file was that they knew he was careful with their lives. Of course he wasn't the first pick for 8th Army but Gort's plane got shot down. An interesting what-if.

[Ol_Dog]

I can see Monty's PR release now " He never made a mistake - Eisenhower"

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: sprior

Commonwealth had already taken tremendous casulties

Monty was under tremendous pressure from Churchill to cut back on casualties. During the Normandy campaign the troops suffered loss rates close if not equal to WW1 rates. After that the UK was breaking up combat and support units to keep other units up to strength.

Part of the reason Monty was so popular with the rank and file was that they knew he was careful with their lives. Of course he wasn't the first pick for 8th Army but Gort's plane got shot down. An interesting what-if.

We had such a general ... Omar Bradley .. but I might contend because he was not pretentious as his peers ... history overlooks some of his operational failings like missing all the signs leading to the Battle of the Bulge ...

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: sprior


Part of the reason Monty was so popular with the rank and file was that they knew he was careful with their lives.

The single most underrated skill in a general commanding troops from a democracy....In a broader context, the most underrated skill of all--to achieve national objectives with the minimum loss of your own troops at an economic cost that is affordable.

I cringe at the trend in historical writing in the last 20 years that lavishes praise on the Red Army, in order, I suspect, to attempt to make up for largely ignoring its role in WWII due to Cold War perceptions. The Red Army demonstrated an unusual ability to suffer more losses than its enemies in almost every situation. Zhukov's great victory at Nomonhan is an interesting case study. I always have like the aphorism ascribed to baseball general manager Billy Bean, "if he is such a good hitter, why doesn't he hit good?"

[Cap Mandrake]

See...that's the good thing about AE. You never get annoying telegrams from back home over such annoying trivialities like casualties.

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: sprior

Slim hasn't been mentioned

That's a shame. Get Defeat into Victory if you haven't already read it.

I used to make Defeat into Victory mandatory reading for my junior officers and NCOs when I did that sort of thing...

That being said, Slim's victories made no difference to the outcome of the war nor the state of the post-war British Empire. The Japanese Army in Burma had no realistic ability to threaten India after the British dealt with the much more dangerous internal risks including the Bengal Famine. Just a competent General was all that was required. Meanwhile, Japan was facing annihilation many thousands of miles away and the forces that could have be reallocated from Burma would not have changed the outcome of that struggle one bit. Finally, retaking Burma and eventually Malaya made no difference to the Empire, which was in no position to maintain its overseas holdings.

All that a long answer to why Slim may not get a fair share of praise as a general of troops.

[Cap Mandrake]

*****************Seaplane Hangar, Papaete, March 6, 1943(c)******************


FAM: <reading telegram> "...the President has been asking what happened to 2nd Bn/102nd STOP Frankly a lot of us have been asking that STOP With oodles of warmth, General Marshall END"

GODDAMNIT! OK, WHO LEAKED IT? I told you people this was top secret and that ESPECIALLY means Washington. I swear to Odin some of you IDIOTS act like you never used an indoor shitter before!

"Oodles of warmth", my ass. Son of a bitch probably has some wet behind the ears West Point pinhead halfway to Pearl by now. LISTEN UP PEOPLE! I WANT A FULL ALERT FOR ALL ANTI-AIRCRAFT CREWS STARTING AT 08:00 TOMORROW! Anything coming in from the north, shoot it down, even if it has US markings.

Moana, go find a map. Find a nice, out of the way place with good weather...........

[Cap Mandrake]

A Christmas present. USS Massachusetts showed up in Panama. I never look at reinforcement schedules any more. It's just a tease. Plus, it is so much more fun to be surprised.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: sprior

Commonwealth had already taken tremendous casulties

Monty was under tremendous pressure from Churchill to cut back on casualties. During the Normandy campaign the troops suffered loss rates close if not equal to WW1 rates. After that the UK was breaking up combat and support units to keep other units up to strength.

Part of the reason Monty was so popular with the rank and file was that they knew he was careful with their lives. Of course he wasn't the first pick for 8th Army but Gort's plane got shot down. An interesting what-if.

So true - the German reserve panzer divisions were all concentrated in the area north of Caen, where the British and Canadians were. At that point in the war there were few guns/tank destroyers that could take on the Tigers. US formations also had more truck transport available to move quicker.

One of Monty's biggest failures was ignoring the islands guarding the estuary leading into Antwerp. These were very lightly defended until the Canadians were close to Antwerp, whereupon the Germans heavily reinforced them. The Canadians took Antwerp but Monty denied them a place in the victory parade because he thought they had been too slow getting there (they had to fight along the coast, through all the heavy fortifications of the Atlantic Wall), and he rewarded them with the job of taking the islands (basically mud flats with dikes, which the Germans breached to flood the landscape). He did not get them any proper landing craft for the job so they paddled canvas boats across the narrowest crossings, a predictable route. The battle was extremely bloody and took months, while the Allies were denied use of the biggest port in Europe when it was sorely needed to sustain the offensives in the south. The troops assigned to Market Garden could have taken the islands and then broken through in the North after Antwerp was taken.

[Cap Mandrake]

Did I spell "Massachusetts" right? Ah, who cares.

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: sprior

An interesting view on how Brits see Americans. Not for the faint of vocabulary.

I suspect that it doesn't matter much how Brits see Americans any more.

Opinions that do seem to matter:
How the Iranians see Israel and vice versa
How the Chinese see the Japanese
How Americans see the Chinese
How the Germans see the French
How Putin sees the world

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

ORIGINAL: sprior

Slim hasn't been mentioned

That's a shame. Get Defeat into Victory if you haven't already read it.

I used to make Defeat into Victory mandatory reading for my junior officers and NCOs when I did that sort of thing...

That being said, Slim's victories made no difference to the outcome of the war nor the state of the post-war British Empire. The Japanese Army in Burma had no realistic ability to threaten India after the British dealt with the much more dangerous internal risks including the Bengal Famine. Just a competent General was all that was required. Meanwhile, Japan was facing annihilation many thousands of miles away and the forces that could have be reallocated from Burma would not have changed the outcome of that struggle one bit. Finally, retaking Burma and eventually Malaya made no difference to the Empire, which was in no position to maintain its overseas holdings.

All that a long answer to why Slim may not get a fair share of praise as a general of troops.

Don't forget the post-war world. British troops in Malaya and Burma held off attempts by indigenous Communists [which had support from China and Russia] to take over those countries. Britain left only after Capitalist governments were well established.

[Cap Mandrake]

*****************Seaplane Hangar, Papaete, March 6, 1943(c)******************

Moana: Sir, I have some options for you but we need direction. Do you want to be closer to the action?

FAM: Hell no! Got anything with good fishing?

Moana: Communication links?

FAM: I think a weekly mail plane would do. I don't want George Marshall to know and I don't want Thurgood Marshall to know. No Marshalls, got it?

Moana: No Marshalls , got it. Sir, about General Marshall and this notion he might....errm..reassign you? Well, aren't you an Admiral, sir?

FAM: Holy Mary and the Sweet Baby Jesus! You are right!............

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

A Christmas present. USS Massachusetts showed up in Panama. I never look at reinforcement schedules any more. It's just a tease. Plus, it is so much more fun to be surprised.

It is usally handy to know if a few DD's need to be there ahead of time to escort these prizes [;)] it is quite possible for the IJ to station submarines in the lanes where these platforms might show up on the map and ruin a perfectly good ship ... [8D]

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: sprior

An interesting view on how Brits see Americans. Not for the faint of vocabulary.

No kidding. What a show-off that lad is.

"tmesis" [:D] I had to look it up. I thought it was a spelling error. [:D]