Naval Game ?
Moderators: Lord Zimoa, MOD_Commander_The_Great_War
RE: Naval Game ?
Hi guys I have been experimenting with the Naval side of the game,and untill we get more Naval counters,an easy fix is I have Increased the defence strenghts of Battleships,Cruisers & Submarines.I can't mind of hand what the defence strenght of a Battleship counter is,in the standard game,I think its about 13 or something,anyway I have increased it to 40,with the result being, let say the High Seas Fleet should blunder into the Grand Fleet + Cruisers,in the bog standard game that whould proberly mean the High Seas Fleet is toast,and the wars over for Germany!But with the Defence increased of 40 The High Seas Fleet now only takes 2 or 3 points of damage,and can return to Germany for repairs.[:)]
Make it so!
RE: Naval Game ?
Looking at the Imperial Navy and the Royal Navy, one way of doing a better, more interesting, naval game is to give each country more realistic starting numbers, but give Germany slightly higher values - representing the superior gunnery and the fact that the German ships took punishment better.
The British would have better efficiency - any German naval defeat would have a worse impact on the Germans than on the British for example.
This means the British cannot just fritter away its forces in case of contact with a full-strength enemy, but allows players to explore more options.
The British would have better efficiency - any German naval defeat would have a worse impact on the Germans than on the British for example.
This means the British cannot just fritter away its forces in case of contact with a full-strength enemy, but allows players to explore more options.
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
- JJKettunen
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RE: Naval Game ?
ORIGINAL: kirk23
Hi guys I have been experimenting with the Naval side of the game,and untill we get more Naval counters,an easy fix is I have Increased the defence strenghts of Battleships,Cruisers & Submarines.I can't mind of hand what the defence strenght of a Battleship counter is,in the standard game,I think its about 13 or something,anyway I have increased it to 40,with the result being, let say the High Seas Fleet should blunder into the Grand Fleet + Cruisers,in the bog standard game that whould proberly mean the High Seas Fleet is toast,and the wars over for Germany!But with the Defence increased of 40 The High Seas Fleet now only takes 2 or 3 points of damage,and can return to Germany for repairs.[:)]
That is good to know. Thanks!
Jyri Kettunen
The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.
- A. Solzhenitsyn
The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.
- A. Solzhenitsyn
RE: Naval Game ?
In my first quick play through as Germany,I went on a suicide mission with the Battleship counter, just to see what happens,and as expected the counter lasted no time at all untill it was wiped out,the thing that did surprise me was that,the loss of the High Seas Fleet only resulted in a reduction off 25% approx to the National Morale,that can't be right?Because had Britain or Germany lost there major surface fleet in the real world,then they would have sued for peace, and the war would have been over.For the so called play balance the designers of this game, have got the naval game all wrong,this needs fixed NOW!
As a side note increasing the defence factor of the land forces,also makes the game better,no more fluid fronts with counters being wiped out in one go,now they take damage but survive,REAL TRENCH WARFARE HAS FINALLY ARRIVED !!
As a side note increasing the defence factor of the land forces,also makes the game better,no more fluid fronts with counters being wiped out in one go,now they take damage but survive,REAL TRENCH WARFARE HAS FINALLY ARRIVED !!
Make it so!
RE: Naval Game ?
I'd certainly like to see naval combat be less lethal in the game. Its very risky to go on naval raids with the morale penalty because if there is combat and your on the receiving end you will probably lose a ship. With the few units available and the high costs of buying or upgrading it seems like good policy to hide away in port. Although some navies really did this I'd still like to see a little more action at sea and i think this easy fix would bring it
- Rasputitsa
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RE: Naval Game ?
I am a novice at this game, but I think we need to keep in mind the grand strategy scale of the game. The naval unit icons represent battle fleets and squadrons of cruisers, the number of times battle fleets clashed during WW1 can be counted on the fingers of one hand.
The game doesn't represent the actions of individual ships and raiders, but as on land, the game combats represent major offensives, not the everyday warfare that still cost 1000s of lives.
Not sure about the national morale hit, serious loses sometime stiffen the will to fight on, so 25% is not necessarily that far out, but with so few naval units represented, one unit destroyed can equal 100% losses, which is way too much risk.
The naval game is certainly weak and needs modification, as you can't get much grand strategy out of one unit, but it needs to stay in scale.[:)]
The game doesn't represent the actions of individual ships and raiders, but as on land, the game combats represent major offensives, not the everyday warfare that still cost 1000s of lives.
Not sure about the national morale hit, serious loses sometime stiffen the will to fight on, so 25% is not necessarily that far out, but with so few naval units represented, one unit destroyed can equal 100% losses, which is way too much risk.
The naval game is certainly weak and needs modification, as you can't get much grand strategy out of one unit, but it needs to stay in scale.[:)]
"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
RE: Naval Game ?
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1ORIGINAL: Aurelian
ORIGINAL: kirk23
Also with regard to Germany,the High Seas Fleet for the most part had better armoured,better hull subdivision anti-torpedo protection,plus better range finder optical lenses!
They shot better at the beginning of an engagement, but started to fall off the longer it went on, while the Brits were the opposite IIRC.
Well that's a bit of a problem isn't it? - because there is no guarantee that your still going to be around in one piece later if the other guy is hitting you but you're not hitting him [;)]
Depends on which side of the guns you're on [:)]
Watched a documentary on beavers. Best dam documentary I've ever seen.
- Rasputitsa
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RE: Naval Game ?
ORIGINAL: AurelianORIGINAL: kirk23
Also with regard to Germany,the High Seas Fleet for the most part had better armoured,better hull subdivision anti-torpedo protection,plus better range finder optical lenses!
They shot better at the beginning of an engagement, but started to fall off the longer it went on, while the Brits were the opposite IIRC.
These are tactical effects, which although part of the combat odds, are difficult to simulate in a strategic game. I would like to see the naval aspects of the game widened, but it will still be greatly abstracted and whatever the tactical advantages the High Seas Fleet possessed, they were heavily outweighed by the numbers that the RN could bring into action (if you get the strategy right).
Thinking more of separate unit icons for Battleship fleets, Battle-cruiser fleets and Pre-dreadnoughts. The Battle-cruisers have their well known weaknesses, but used alone, have the ability to outrun other units and that would reflect in minimising the damage suffered (speed is armour) if attacked by Battleships. They can force cruisers into action, but if used to attack Battle fleets they are more vulnerable. To justify different types of capital ship units, they should have different attributes.
Tech levels will effect the ability of units to escape damage from other slower units, lower tech is the reverse and would have to be used with more care, or support (old cruisers and pre-dreadnoughts being especially at risk). There is a lot of general strategic effects to be brought into the game, without the specific detail of guns and armour.
The 20 day game turn is representing more than just single engagements and there is a naval campaign to be fought here, with a little more flexibility in the game (e.g. more than one unit). [:)]
"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
RE: Naval Game ?
My outline suggestions for improving the naval game – without losing sight of the fact that this is a strategic level game, but allowing for more options, more realism and more fun.
Things that need amending from current game:
- Petrograd needs a port.
- If a ship has no port it can theoretically return to at the end of any turn, it should be destroyed e.g. the Russian cruiser in the Black Sea, or the Russian Fleet in the Baltic (and the German if the Kiel Canal is closed).
Shore Bombardment
I think shore bombardment is probably about right in terms of its effectiveness, but there needs to be a cost. E.g. major warships operating in enemy controlled coastal waters were subject to heavy losses from mines etc.
Therefore areas such as:
- The Gulf of Finland
- The Gulf of Danzig (and waters around Konigsberg)
- The English Channel (both sides)
- The Adriatic for the Austrians
- Limited areas around major ports
- The Straits of Otranto for the Italians
should automatically see a dice roll for enemy units operating in those zones (including passing through) for every turn they are there. This will mean either no effect or a 1-strength point loss. E.g large losses inflicted during the Dardanelles Campaign and German destroyer losses in the Gulf of Finland.
The benefits for ports should not take effect immediately, but should take a turn or two to implement – e.g. if the Germans take Calais, then a British ship counter may operate off Calais for x no. of turns before the German has a chance to get mines laid, coastal units in position etc. Thereafter the dice roll applies.
The Fleets themselves and counter nos:
The counter numbers should roughly reflect actual size of fleets (give or take some allowance for balance). The navies of the world were not all the same and the 10-point-counter-for-all concept really detracts from such a good game.
How to make the naval game more fun but keep a historical setting? Looking at Britain vs Germany we have Britain needing to implement its blockade of the continent, while the Germans need to break it. Instead of unrealistic strategic bombardment*, the blockade is the way for Britain to hurt Germany (this effect gets worse over time – probably a morale effect rather than production?). This has two effects – there is a reason for the British to keep its Grand Fleet intact and in place, and a reason for the Germans to try and force a battle.
The fleets would need to be broken up into smaller elements. Importantly, to represent the huge chance element – weather and such like – that is a feature of naval encounters - fleets that end the turn next to each other will have to roll a dice to decide whether they “find each other” and thus there is a battle. With no counter stacking, this combination of fleet counters and chance will make for a much more interesting, cat-and-mouse situation as really existed – and give a chance for a smaller fleet to beat a bigger one (the attacker keeps the surprise as per current rules).
*Picking up on Naskra’s recent comment in the forum about bombing/bombardment affecting morale – not production.
Britain has the biggest navy in the world, but 100-years + of being unchallenged on the high seas has led to an element of complacency – allied to industrial shortcomings. This can be reflected in better hitting power and defensive power for the Germans. German efficiency (morale) should be weaker than the British – and more likely to run from any battle.
As said, the Battleship and cruiser counters reflect the ship nos. more accurately for each country and there is a need for other counter-types to be added so you could have:
- Battleships
- Battlecruisers
- Non-dreadnought type battleships
- Cruisers
It is assumed that destroyers are “present” with all counter-types.
The idea would be to keep the actual counter numbers relatively low – not sure how many would be required, but I am happy to do some work on this if these ideas are of any interest.
Things that need amending from current game:
- Petrograd needs a port.
- If a ship has no port it can theoretically return to at the end of any turn, it should be destroyed e.g. the Russian cruiser in the Black Sea, or the Russian Fleet in the Baltic (and the German if the Kiel Canal is closed).
Shore Bombardment
I think shore bombardment is probably about right in terms of its effectiveness, but there needs to be a cost. E.g. major warships operating in enemy controlled coastal waters were subject to heavy losses from mines etc.
Therefore areas such as:
- The Gulf of Finland
- The Gulf of Danzig (and waters around Konigsberg)
- The English Channel (both sides)
- The Adriatic for the Austrians
- Limited areas around major ports
- The Straits of Otranto for the Italians
should automatically see a dice roll for enemy units operating in those zones (including passing through) for every turn they are there. This will mean either no effect or a 1-strength point loss. E.g large losses inflicted during the Dardanelles Campaign and German destroyer losses in the Gulf of Finland.
The benefits for ports should not take effect immediately, but should take a turn or two to implement – e.g. if the Germans take Calais, then a British ship counter may operate off Calais for x no. of turns before the German has a chance to get mines laid, coastal units in position etc. Thereafter the dice roll applies.
The Fleets themselves and counter nos:
The counter numbers should roughly reflect actual size of fleets (give or take some allowance for balance). The navies of the world were not all the same and the 10-point-counter-for-all concept really detracts from such a good game.
How to make the naval game more fun but keep a historical setting? Looking at Britain vs Germany we have Britain needing to implement its blockade of the continent, while the Germans need to break it. Instead of unrealistic strategic bombardment*, the blockade is the way for Britain to hurt Germany (this effect gets worse over time – probably a morale effect rather than production?). This has two effects – there is a reason for the British to keep its Grand Fleet intact and in place, and a reason for the Germans to try and force a battle.
The fleets would need to be broken up into smaller elements. Importantly, to represent the huge chance element – weather and such like – that is a feature of naval encounters - fleets that end the turn next to each other will have to roll a dice to decide whether they “find each other” and thus there is a battle. With no counter stacking, this combination of fleet counters and chance will make for a much more interesting, cat-and-mouse situation as really existed – and give a chance for a smaller fleet to beat a bigger one (the attacker keeps the surprise as per current rules).
*Picking up on Naskra’s recent comment in the forum about bombing/bombardment affecting morale – not production.
Britain has the biggest navy in the world, but 100-years + of being unchallenged on the high seas has led to an element of complacency – allied to industrial shortcomings. This can be reflected in better hitting power and defensive power for the Germans. German efficiency (morale) should be weaker than the British – and more likely to run from any battle.
As said, the Battleship and cruiser counters reflect the ship nos. more accurately for each country and there is a need for other counter-types to be added so you could have:
- Battleships
- Battlecruisers
- Non-dreadnought type battleships
- Cruisers
It is assumed that destroyers are “present” with all counter-types.
The idea would be to keep the actual counter numbers relatively low – not sure how many would be required, but I am happy to do some work on this if these ideas are of any interest.
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
- Rasputitsa
- Posts: 2902
- Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 8:00 am
- Location: Bedfordshire UK
- Contact:
RE: Naval Game ?
I am too much of a novice with this game to make much comment, but agree with Warspite, especially that weaker nations' naval forces should start at low strength, whilst the stronger nations would have several strength 10 units, to reflect the historical number of ships available.[:)]
"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
RE: Naval Game ?
Hi Warspite1,your ideas are great,especially The fleets would need to be broken up into smaller elements. Importantly, to represent the huge chance element – weather and such like – that is a feature of naval encounters - fleets that end the turn next to each other will have to roll a dice to decide whether they “find each other” and thus there is a battle.
Another thing I find strange is that the Norway - Germany Convoy, has been omitted from the game why,this convoy sailed from Narvik - Cuxhaven!,and along with the Swedish Iron Ore Convoy,gives the German player 2 very good reasons to have warships available to protect these vital supply convoys!
As for ship types the game needs counters for the following.
Pre-Dreadnoughts = All major Nations had these ships and plenty off them !
Dreadnoughts = These are the main stay of the combat fleet ( Also please lose the Battleship name,in this era they were called DREADNOUGHTS!)
Battlecruiser = Only Britain & Germany had these ship types,they were designed to hunt down Armoured cruisers,and not be used against Dreadnoughts !
Armoured Cruiser = Many protection rolls especially Over sea bases & Convoy duties !
Light Cruiser = The game for some unknown reason gives these an Anti-Submarine roll,this is not there mission,they are the eyes of the Battlefeet !
Destroyers = There were thousands of these built,used to screen the Dreadnoughts in the battlefleet from enemy destroyers,also there main roll was as Anti-Submarine protection !
Another thing I find strange is that the Norway - Germany Convoy, has been omitted from the game why,this convoy sailed from Narvik - Cuxhaven!,and along with the Swedish Iron Ore Convoy,gives the German player 2 very good reasons to have warships available to protect these vital supply convoys!
As for ship types the game needs counters for the following.
Pre-Dreadnoughts = All major Nations had these ships and plenty off them !
Dreadnoughts = These are the main stay of the combat fleet ( Also please lose the Battleship name,in this era they were called DREADNOUGHTS!)
Battlecruiser = Only Britain & Germany had these ship types,they were designed to hunt down Armoured cruisers,and not be used against Dreadnoughts !
Armoured Cruiser = Many protection rolls especially Over sea bases & Convoy duties !
Light Cruiser = The game for some unknown reason gives these an Anti-Submarine roll,this is not there mission,they are the eyes of the Battlefeet !
Destroyers = There were thousands of these built,used to screen the Dreadnoughts in the battlefleet from enemy destroyers,also there main roll was as Anti-Submarine protection !
Make it so!
RE: Naval Game ?
I aggree too with the naval adjustments noted above, but I'm just starting out here.
...would it be a simple MOD to change number of fleets and strenght?
looking forward to this game and growing for a long time.
cheers
...would it be a simple MOD to change number of fleets and strenght?
looking forward to this game and growing for a long time.
cheers
RE: Naval Game ?
I feel that each ship counter should represent 10 Capital ships plus there attendant escorts ie the destroyer screen !
Make it so!
RE: Naval Game ?
Ok I have changed the requirements for building Naval Units Battleships,Cruisers & Submarines,I have reduced the cost and build times,I now have all the ship counters in the game I want without having to wait for them,I have worked on the idea of 10 Capital ships makes up a new fleet counter,so Germany now has 2 Counters to represnt the Pre-Dreadnoughts,2 Counters for the Dreadnoughts + 1 counter for the Battlecruisers,I also have 3 Cruiser counters and 3 Submarines,I will watch to see what the Allied AI builds and see what action occurrs with more ship counters in play![8D]
Make it so!
RE: Naval Game ?
Ok I have been play testing the above naval settings for the past 3 hrs,I just built the above ship counters that I wanted in play for Germany and the High Seas Fleet,and I have to say the naval game is far more interesting,especially considering the fact that I'm still using the increased DEFENCE FACTORS for all the ship counters.I was curious to see what the British AI would do,and I'm also glad to report that it did indeed increase the number of ships Britain uses,allowing for fog of war,I did encounter a second Battleship counter!
Now if I could only figure out how to add new unit types,I would be able to edit the Battleship counters,so that I could have a weaker verion for Pre-Dreadnoughts and a faster weaker version for the Battlecruisers,and then I would be in naval narvana!
Now if I could only figure out how to add new unit types,I would be able to edit the Battleship counters,so that I could have a weaker verion for Pre-Dreadnoughts and a faster weaker version for the Battlecruisers,and then I would be in naval narvana!
Make it so!
RE: Naval Game ?
ORIGINAL: kirk23
Ok I have changed the requirements for building Naval Units Battleships,Cruisers & Submarines,I have reduced the cost and build times,I now have all the ship counters in the game I want without having to wait for them,I have worked on the idea of 10 Capital ships makes up a new fleet counter,so Germany now has 2 Counters to represnt the Pre-Dreadnoughts,2 Counters for the Dreadnoughts + 1 counter for the Battlecruisers,I also have 3 Cruiser counters and 3 Submarines,I will watch to see what the Allied AI builds and see what action occurrs with more ship counters in play![8D]
Did you lower the upkeep costs?
From what you have listed above, starting upkeep cost would be an extra 18 pp for Germany. That's a big bite at the start of the game.
RE: Naval Game ?
Yes I lowered the up keep off the naval units,I also increased the starting PP & MP of all the Countrys,the settings are only trial and error so far,I just want more ships in game,whether that be an official patch,or by my own doing it will happen,or the game gets shelved![;)]
Make it so!
RE: Naval Game ?
Hi tombo the naval game is working great with the new settings,I'm still play testing the effects,I will make the files available to anyone who wants to try them out.
Make it so!
RE: Naval Game ?
Have you made any changes to the shore bombardment capability? With more counters, presumably each counter has less effect?
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815