When?
Moderator: Shannon V. OKeets
RE: When?
Hi Everybody!
I lurk this forum for several years now, checking it every few months ... not because I want to play the game (although I was an avid player of military board games for around 20 years, which brought me to Matrix Games doorstep, but I have lost the patience and time for them) - no, I am also a Software Developer and can’t tear myself away from this unmitigated mess.
I don’t question the enthusiasm of everybody directly involved in the creation of this – or even their talent, for that matter. But even with the limited information that is available here (although, if all true, it gives a pretty clear picture) I have to seriously question the motivation and competence of anybody involved on the business side of this project … and also the delusion and blind kamikaze faith on the side of the few hopefuls expecting to ever play this.
Even a cursory overview of the monthly reports and other messages show staggering problems, amounts of bugs, changes and redesigns that clearly show serious basic design flaws tracing back to the very beginning of this (8 years now is it?), obsolete technology, stagnant, clunky presentation, overdependence on a single person for everything from idea to execution, beta testers that have managed to produce a constantly big number of bugs over at least the last three years (no exact numbers before that), numerous and near constant failure to keep any resemblance of a schedule (and yes, I even really believe there was a good reason for it every time), and so much more …
I witnessed such projects before.
The people directly involved don’t have a way out - that ship has sailed. They have seemingly melted into the work, try their very best to cope and often manage an heroic effort to keep things afloat, often at the cost of private life, finances, health, …
People here often point out that posts should be productive. Okay, so let me answer the question of this thread … When? Never! I don’t mean that in a childish “I WANT THIS” kind of way, neither in a cynical “HA, YOU FAILED” kind of way … I am simply begging you to stop this insanity.
For those that are involved in the business side of this … shame on you to let this go on, check out the meaning of the word “management” and then give it a try.
For those that want to play this, want to support this, have done so over the years, are invested and passionate, love this and helped … take a step back and look at what is happening here. Let go … I know it’s hard, but it’s for the better.
Maybe a new start is possible, but please don’t let this go on … no small steps will help here, think more “gordian knot”.
And so ... Merry Christmas Everybody!
Can't ... look ... away ...
I lurk this forum for several years now, checking it every few months ... not because I want to play the game (although I was an avid player of military board games for around 20 years, which brought me to Matrix Games doorstep, but I have lost the patience and time for them) - no, I am also a Software Developer and can’t tear myself away from this unmitigated mess.
I don’t question the enthusiasm of everybody directly involved in the creation of this – or even their talent, for that matter. But even with the limited information that is available here (although, if all true, it gives a pretty clear picture) I have to seriously question the motivation and competence of anybody involved on the business side of this project … and also the delusion and blind kamikaze faith on the side of the few hopefuls expecting to ever play this.
Even a cursory overview of the monthly reports and other messages show staggering problems, amounts of bugs, changes and redesigns that clearly show serious basic design flaws tracing back to the very beginning of this (8 years now is it?), obsolete technology, stagnant, clunky presentation, overdependence on a single person for everything from idea to execution, beta testers that have managed to produce a constantly big number of bugs over at least the last three years (no exact numbers before that), numerous and near constant failure to keep any resemblance of a schedule (and yes, I even really believe there was a good reason for it every time), and so much more …
I witnessed such projects before.
The people directly involved don’t have a way out - that ship has sailed. They have seemingly melted into the work, try their very best to cope and often manage an heroic effort to keep things afloat, often at the cost of private life, finances, health, …
People here often point out that posts should be productive. Okay, so let me answer the question of this thread … When? Never! I don’t mean that in a childish “I WANT THIS” kind of way, neither in a cynical “HA, YOU FAILED” kind of way … I am simply begging you to stop this insanity.
For those that are involved in the business side of this … shame on you to let this go on, check out the meaning of the word “management” and then give it a try.
For those that want to play this, want to support this, have done so over the years, are invested and passionate, love this and helped … take a step back and look at what is happening here. Let go … I know it’s hard, but it’s for the better.
Maybe a new start is possible, but please don’t let this go on … no small steps will help here, think more “gordian knot”.
And so ... Merry Christmas Everybody!
Can't ... look ... away ...
RE: When?
And merry christmas to you too. You are entitled to having your opinion here. I don't agree with what you've written here totally, but I think you are right if you want to state that the game isn't on the market at this moment and that it is taking far too long to get there. I share your opinion on that.ORIGINAL: Soulhex
Hi Everybody!
I lurk this forum for several years now, checking it every few months ... not because I want to play the game (although I was an avid player of military board games for around 20 years, which brought me to Matrix Games doorstep, but I have lost the patience and time for them) - no, I am also a Software Developer and can’t tear myself away from this unmitigated mess.
I don’t question the enthusiasm of everybody directly involved in the creation of this – or even their talent, for that matter. But even with the limited information that is available here (although, if all true, it gives a pretty clear picture) I have to seriously question the motivation and competence of anybody involved on the business side of this project … and also the delusion and blind kamikaze faith on the side of the few hopefuls expecting to ever play this.
Even a cursory overview of the monthly reports and other messages show staggering problems, amounts of bugs, changes and redesigns that clearly show serious basic design flaws tracing back to the very beginning of this (8 years now is it?), obsolete technology, stagnant, clunky presentation, overdependence on a single person for everything from idea to execution, beta testers that have managed to produce a constantly big number of bugs over at least the last three years (no exact numbers before that), numerous and near constant failure to keep any resemblance of a schedule (and yes, I even really believe there was a good reason for it every time), and so much more …
I witnessed such projects before.
The people directly involved don’t have a way out - that ship has sailed. They have seemingly melted into the work, try their very best to cope and often manage an heroic effort to keep things afloat, often at the cost of private life, finances, health, …
People here often point out that posts should be productive. Okay, so let me answer the question of this thread … When? Never! I don’t mean that in a childish “I WANT THIS” kind of way, neither in a cynical “HA, YOU FAILED” kind of way … I am simply begging you to stop this insanity.
For those that are involved in the business side of this … shame on you to let this go on, check out the meaning of the word “management” and then give it a try.
For those that want to play this, want to support this, have done so over the years, are invested and passionate, love this and helped … take a step back and look at what is happening here. Let go … I know it’s hard, but it’s for the better.
Maybe a new start is possible, but please don’t let this go on … no small steps will help here, think more “gordian knot”.
And so ... Merry Christmas Everybody!
Can't ... look ... away ...
However: did it occur to you that maybe, Matrix made an error to start this project and is now trying to make the best out of it, by letting a "madman" (sorry Steve, but you are really positively speaking mad for taking this on...) try to make the program?
Of course Matrix could have opened a drawer somewhere a couple of years ago and put the whole thing into it, never to get it out of the drawer again. The way I see it, Matrix has done the right thing here. They contract someone to get the job done. If not, well: that's the end of it, we've tried the best we can...
I think this is better than discarding the project totally...
Peter
RE: When?
Hi Soulhex welcome to the forums. There was a time several years ago I would have been in lock step with you, not saying you are in anyway like I was, angry, frustrated, demeaning, fuming and maybe 10 other negative feelings. But then I joined the beta team and my feelings changed.
I still have some misgivings about this endeavor as do other people here but I have learned the hard way to control those feelings better.
I believe abj [Andy] gave me the finest explanation I ever heard about this game. He said it is like Steve is writing a book, a book and subject that no other writer [programmer] would even attempt to bring to fruit. A subject with 73,000 hexes and many multiple options that makes other games look like child's play. A novel that he will finish. A novel that will be on the New York times best sellers list for many years to come. If not it should be.
He [Steve] will finish that book and we all realize that he will always be there to correct anything that needs correcting through the years ahead, not many companies stand by there products for years to come. Microsoft for example.
Without disclosing anything, the computer game is a classic and IMHO will be here for a long long time and not put on a shelf after one or two years [in some cases 2 months].
You spoke your mind and I respect your opinion and hope that my fellow members here also respect your opinion. Merry Christmas.
Bo
I still have some misgivings about this endeavor as do other people here but I have learned the hard way to control those feelings better.
I believe abj [Andy] gave me the finest explanation I ever heard about this game. He said it is like Steve is writing a book, a book and subject that no other writer [programmer] would even attempt to bring to fruit. A subject with 73,000 hexes and many multiple options that makes other games look like child's play. A novel that he will finish. A novel that will be on the New York times best sellers list for many years to come. If not it should be.
He [Steve] will finish that book and we all realize that he will always be there to correct anything that needs correcting through the years ahead, not many companies stand by there products for years to come. Microsoft for example.
Without disclosing anything, the computer game is a classic and IMHO will be here for a long long time and not put on a shelf after one or two years [in some cases 2 months].
You spoke your mind and I respect your opinion and hope that my fellow members here also respect your opinion. Merry Christmas.
Bo
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- Posts: 330
- Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 6:05 am
RE: When?
Basically Steve says, "Hey guys, just checking in to let you know I am dying. I am literally suffering a new systemic failure on a monthly basis and these, my final days of life, are miserable. I hope you understand why there's no game, or even any updates."
And then the community responds with: "Sorry to here you feel bad buddy!!! tAke a couple day off and then get back to work to feeel bettr!!!!! [&o][:'(][;)][;)][:)][8D]"
"You are doing great, a little break to get your energy up again will do you wonders. [&o][&o][&o][&o]"
"You are LITERALLY a madman for continuing with this project! A madman!!! But yes, take a short break then get right back to it. Can't wait for game!!!!![:'(][:'(][:'(]"
"This thing is crazy!!!!!!!! But hard work is the right thing, is summer 2013 a possable?!?!?!?!?"
It's shameful. You should be saying, "Steve this is insane, and not in a good way. Give it up. You were sabotaged from the beginning, there is no dishonor in leaving this mess behind. Quit this silliness so you can recover your health. Enjoy your family. Live."
And then the community responds with: "Sorry to here you feel bad buddy!!! tAke a couple day off and then get back to work to feeel bettr!!!!! [&o][:'(][;)][;)][:)][8D]"
"You are doing great, a little break to get your energy up again will do you wonders. [&o][&o][&o][&o]"
"You are LITERALLY a madman for continuing with this project! A madman!!! But yes, take a short break then get right back to it. Can't wait for game!!!!![:'(][:'(][:'(]"
"This thing is crazy!!!!!!!! But hard work is the right thing, is summer 2013 a possable?!?!?!?!?"
It's shameful. You should be saying, "Steve this is insane, and not in a good way. Give it up. You were sabotaged from the beginning, there is no dishonor in leaving this mess behind. Quit this silliness so you can recover your health. Enjoy your family. Live."
RE: When?
warspite1ORIGINAL: tigercub
what rock did you come from under....
From the content of his post I suspect either this is someone's sock puppet or a "freind" of one of the games detractors who has been asked to go on and troll, to stir up trouble.
Why would I think that? Well just look at the clues:
1.
- Yes that's likely isn't it? Who would waste their time doing that? What? This person knew from the start it was going to be a "disaster"? Really? Never felt the need to mention anything before - only now, short on the heels of the recent unpleasantness.I lurk the forum for several years, checking every few months
2.
First real dig to get people going.I am also a Software Developer and can’t tear myself away from this unmitigated mess.
3. Then the not-very-subtle give-away: He starts with the voice of reason
Great, so that shows there is no troll at work here - just a reasonable guy right? Er....I don’t question the enthusiasm of everybody directly involved in the creation of this – or even their talent
4. .....then goes and blows it with this little number that directly contradicts what he just said and is designed to raise the temperature
Classic Trolling.I have to seriously question the motivation and competence of anybody involved on the business side of this project … and also the delusion
So yes, I will react to this post:
[>:][>:][>:][>:][>:][>:][>:]
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
RE: When?
ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy
Basically Steve says, "Hey guys, just checking in to let you know I am dying. I am literally suffering a new systemic failure on a monthly basis and these, my final days of life, are miserable. I hope you understand why there's no game, or even any updates."
And then the community responds with: "Sorry to here you feel bad buddy!!! tAke a couple day off and then get back to work to feeel bettr!!!!! [&o][:'(][;)][;)][:)][8D]"
"You are doing great, a little break to get your energy up again will do you wonders. [&o][&o][&o][&o]"
"You are LITERALLY a madman for continuing with this project! A madman!!! But yes, take a short break then get right back to it. Can't wait for game!!!!![:'(][:'(][:'(]"
"This thing is crazy!!!!!!!! But hard work is the right thing, is summer 2013 a possable?!?!?!?!?"
It's shameful. You should be saying, "Steve this is insane, and not in a good way. Give it up. You were sabotaged from the beginning, there is no dishonor in leaving this mess behind. Quit this silliness so you can recover your health. Enjoy your family. Live."
Hi CrussDaddy
I actually think you are mellowing Cruss. that was not half bad even for you. On New Year's eve I would appreciate it if you would make a new years vow or resolution for all of next year.
When Adolf Hitler was asked, if you [Adolph] could be reborn in the future what would be different in your feelings towards mankind. And Adolph replied "NO MR. NICE GUY AGAIN THAT'S FOR SURE" [;)]
Can you emulate that for next year and take off the kid gloves and really speak from the heart, up to now you have been nothing but a sweet kittycat, let's hear the real CrussDaddy next year and man up. [no smileys]
Merry Christmas Chris, ooops I mean Happy Holidays.
Bo
RE: When?
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1ORIGINAL: tigercub
what rock did you come from under....
From the content of his post I suspect either this is someone's sock puppet or a "freind" of one of the games detractors who has been asked to go on and troll, to stir up trouble.
Why would I think that? Well just look at the clues:
1.- Yes that's likely isn't it? Who would waste their time doing that? What? This person knew from the start it was going to be a "disaster"? Really? Never felt the need to mention anything before - only now, short on the heels of the recent unpleasantness.I lurk the forum for several years, checking every few months
2.First real dig to get people going.I am also a Software Developer and can’t tear myself away from this unmitigated mess.
3. Then the not-very-subtle give-away: He starts with the voice of reasonGreat, so that shows there is no troll at work here - just a reasonable guy right? Er....I don’t question the enthusiasm of everybody directly involved in the creation of this – or even their talent
4. .....then goes and blows it with this little number that directly contradicts what he just said and is designed to raise the temperatureClassic Trolling.I have to seriously question the motivation and competence of anybody involved on the business side of this project … and also the delusion
So yes, I will react to this post:
[>:][>:][>:][>:][>:][>:][>:]
An excellent appraisal of the 'one post expert'.
Tigercub +1.
You were far more diplomatic than I would have been!!!
[font="Tahoma"]Our lives may be more boring than those who lived in apocalyptic times,
but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy.[/font] - Michael Burleigh
but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy.[/font] - Michael Burleigh
RE: When?
I’m investigating getting a tattoo “ER Bloods” and wearing gangland colors of scrubs green and latex white.
That made me laugh!!!![:D][:D]
[font="Tahoma"]Our lives may be more boring than those who lived in apocalyptic times,
but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy.[/font] - Michael Burleigh
but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy.[/font] - Michael Burleigh
- Le Grand Condé
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:59 am
RE: When?
Very likely. I for one have been following this forum on a monthly basis since the day ADG announced Matrix would take over Computer WiF.ORIGINAL: warspite1
1.- Yes that's likely isn't it? Who would waste their time doing that?I lurk the forum for several years, checking every few months
Not every one is from an English speaking country, not everyone has time to commit to beta testing, and not everyone is knowledgeable enough to help with unit descriptions (plus, you take a chance on being blasted by a diehard Wiffer for a missing coma [:-]), still there are some people outside the "regular posters" who are truly interested in this game, follow the discussions, and are absolutely entitled to different opinions about how this project is managed.
On a personal note, I am waiting for a playable computer version of WiF since '96 (the first time I heard about it) so I am used to the wait [;)] - but I can understand people wondering if the game will ever be released.
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- Posts: 22136
- Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 11:51 pm
- Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
- Contact:
RE: When?
Yes, but you joined the forum in 2005. The other poster joined on the day of his one post; he also provided zero background information on himself. I agree with Warspite's insightful analysis.ORIGINAL: Le Grand Condé
Very likely. I for one have been following this forum on a monthly basis since the day ADG announced Matrix would take over Computer WiF.ORIGINAL: warspite1
1.- Yes that's likely isn't it? Who would waste their time doing that?I lurk the forum for several years, checking every few months
Not every one is from an English speaking country, not everyone has time to commit to beta testing, and not everyone is knowledgeable enough to help with unit descriptions (plus, you take a chance on being blasted by a diehard Wiffer for a missing coma [:-]), still there are some people outside the "regular posters" who are truly interested in this game, follow the discussions, and are absolutely entitled to different opinions about how this project is managed.
On a personal note, I am waiting for a playable computer version of WiF since '96 (the first time I heard about it) so I am used to the wait [;)] - but I can understand people wondering if the game will ever be released.
Steve
Perfection is an elusive goal.
Perfection is an elusive goal.
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- Posts: 1810
- Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:58 am
RE: When?
[:D] Yup Warspite1 is a new guy since Mziln's joined the forum on 02/09/04 [:D]
[:D] And I'm a new guy compaired to Patrice who joined 10/21/03 [:D]
[:D] And I'm a new guy compaired to Patrice who joined 10/21/03 [:D]
University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)
- wfzimmerman
- Posts: 338
- Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:01 pm
- Contact:
RE: When?
Harry Rowland added me to the CWIF beta for my 40th birthday, 3/18/2001 ...
Contribute to the Steve H. thank you book! http://www.nimblebooks.com/wordpress/2009/04/contribute-to-the-wargamers-wwii-quiz-book/
- Steely Glint
- Posts: 587
- Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:36 pm
RE: When?
Guys, this has gone on way, way, way too long. Years and years too long.
The ship has sailed and you don't seem to realize it. It's time to cut your losses and move on.
The ship has sailed and you don't seem to realize it. It's time to cut your losses and move on.
“It was a war of snap judgments and binary results—shoot or don’t, live or die.“
Wargamer since 1967. Matrix customer since 2003.
Wargamer since 1967. Matrix customer since 2003.
RE: When?
warspite1ORIGINAL: Steely Glint
Guys, this has gone on way, way, way too long. Years and years too long.
The ship has sailed and you don't seem to realize it. It's time to cut your losses and move on.
Thanks for the input - I'll take it under advisement [8|]
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
- Le Grand Condé
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:59 am
RE: When?
You don't need to join in order to read the threads [;)]ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Yes, but you joined the forum in 2005. The other poster joined on the day of his one post; he also provided zero background information on himself. I agree with Warspite's insightful analysis.
I am ashamed I had you waste your precious time replying to my post (which I think is the main pitfall of this forum). I will return to my "one post a year" policy and leave you alone - you've still got a formidable task ahead of you [&o]
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- Posts: 330
- Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 6:05 am
RE: When?
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I'll go out on a limb here and say before July 1 of this year. As to what will be included in the first release - I will not comment on that at this time.ORIGINAL: Joseignacio
Steve, sorry to come up with the dreaded question but, after so many months from a predicted date, I cannot see the end close.
I know you wont give a date. Could you speak about a certain year as a prospective date?
I am pretty shy to ask this, and I totally understand if you are still not prone to do so. Just I was wondering, in order to check the advances of the game as frequently or less frequently (if it's going to last for several yers still).
Glad to hear your health improves, I hope Red Prince is also 100% recovered.
Hey-hey, it's almost time for the 2012 Year in Review post. Can't wait! Learning why another year has gone by with no progress toward a completed game is now a January tradition almost a decade old. Here's an idea for a drinking game: do one shot of bourbon every time Steve says "Nothing new." I know some of you guys are in frail health, you can substitute carrot juice and just act drunk.
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- Posts: 1810
- Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:58 am
RE: When?
Carrot juice is much better than Donald Duck orange juice.
[:D] If you are required to take the right drugs you don't have to act drunk [:D]
* Heavy Sigh * Ah the days of my misspent youth when I ate and drank what I liked and was going to live forever.
Now no more wine, women, and song.
All I have is singing in the shower.
[:D] If you are required to take the right drugs you don't have to act drunk [:D]
* Heavy Sigh * Ah the days of my misspent youth when I ate and drank what I liked and was going to live forever.
Now no more wine, women, and song.
All I have is singing in the shower.
University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)
RE: When?
warspite1ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I'll go out on a limb here and say before July 1 of this year. As to what will be included in the first release - I will not comment on that at this time.ORIGINAL: Joseignacio
Steve, sorry to come up with the dreaded question but, after so many months from a predicted date, I cannot see the end close.
I know you wont give a date. Could you speak about a certain year as a prospective date?
I am pretty shy to ask this, and I totally understand if you are still not prone to do so. Just I was wondering, in order to check the advances of the game as frequently or less frequently (if it's going to last for several yers still).
Glad to hear your health improves, I hope Red Prince is also 100% recovered.
Hey-hey, it's almost time for the 2012 Year in Review post. Can't wait! Learning why another year has gone by with no progress toward a completed game is now a January tradition almost a decade old. Here's an idea for a drinking game: do one shot of bourbon every time Steve says "Nothing new." I know some of you guys are in frail health, you can substitute carrot juice and just act drunk.
Hey-hey, its' almost time for the 2012 in Review post, Great! That means its almost time for a childish, unfunny post from a pathetic loser; one who pops up from time to time to entertain us with his rapier-like wit..oh hi CrusssDaddy I see you've already posted [>:][>:][>:][>:]
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815