Trippin' the Trappen

[RCHarmon]

How is your airforce and how are you using it? Who controls the skies?

[wallas]

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky

Turn 67: September 21, 1942. Weather: Clear, with a hint of cold.

he doesn't appear to be keeping any strategic reserves available for a winter offensive....so a winter offensive will probably be a general offensive, hitting my lines wherever I am weak.

I must point out we are NOT using the newer version of the game with increased soviet replacements> I have ONLY played the infantry card three times, and I have yet to play my tank card so my costs to do a build up with cards is in excellent shape. I am also sitting at 53 prestige with a realistic chance of getting another 20 in coming turns.

[LiquidSky]

ORIGINAL: RCH

How is your airforce and how are you using it? Who controls the skies?

Turn 69: September 25, 1942. Weather: Still Clear.

My opponent has 560 fighters to my 275.

He has 210 sturmovicks to my 180 Stuka's

He has 175 bombers to my 805 bombers.

With a two to one advantage over my fighters, he doesn't have enough to wrest control of the skies away from me. However, I have 90 Fw-190's, 75 Bf109e's, 45 Bf108f's and 10 Bf109g's. That leaves about 50 for my twin engines and minors. So I don't have a lot of strength points that I can cover the entire front (including the Caucaus).

Despite having pretty much total control of the air for the last couple months, I have steadily lost stuka's to AA fire. Seems that if I get too many stuka's into a unit, it will lose a strength point, even if I am just bombing a partisan unit. Not so with my level bombers, so they have been continually climbing in strength since the beginning.


During his turn, the Russians launched some counterattacks. Specifically, he hit the spread out Romanian force in the Caucaus, badly mauling two regiments of fine Romanian youth. And drove his tank corp behind my lines. I thought about pulling back, but instead hit his single regiments holding the line, and isolated his tank corp. If he still has enough supply to keep action rating, he should have little difficulty breaking out, however, I did send a panzer division down to help the Romanians next turn.

[LiquidSky]

Around the Stalingrad front, I am still waiting for Manstein to come up with a plan of attack to taking the first urban hex of the city.

North of the city, another fortification falls as I attempt to get three hex sides on the northern urban hex of Stalingrad. At the rate I am going, I won't be taking the center of Stalingrad until the end of October.

My Bridgehead over the Don is picking up steam, as I suspect the Russians are not reinforcing or sending any new replacements to that front.

[LiquidSky]

Turn 72: October 1, 1942. Weather: Frosty in the north, toasty in the south, with scattered snow.

The last few turns have all been clear. In fact, I believe we only had two rain turns in all of September. The Russians have been friskier then normal, attacking and counter-attacking more aggressively. What usually happens is I will take a hex and end up surrounded on three sides by Russians. (Losing around 300-500 men) The Russians will counterattack, and push them back. (losing readiness, and anywhere from 1000-4000 men). I will attack one wing of his attack, and take it (losing about 100 guys). Until the Russians can no longer attack.

I finally captured the fortification line the Russians built north of Stalingrad, which I will use as my own shield, along with the fortifications he built in front of Stalingrad. As for attacking the city itself, I used Manstein and a gamble, along with an attack card on a division to get a 73% attack bonus to take the south most light urban hex. After four more turns, I will gamble again, and use my artillery to try and take the first urban hex.

I was slowly, but surely pushing north from the Don until this frozen hell appeared. No more of that. I will probably have to pull back 'slowly' to straighten my line.

A word about the weather. I notice that the rivers all seem to be downgraded one level.. The Volga is now like a Major River for movement/supply costs. A major is like a medium...and so on. I am going to have to investigate this further, as I thought the rivers would 'disappear' in winter. Like the swamps.

I am still pushing towards astrakhan, but the Russian determination to stop me at all costs is making it very difficult to make headway. With the fall of the Fortifications by Stalingrad, I am moving III panzer down to assist the Rumanians in pushing across to the railine, but that won't be for a week.

Over all, my army is starting to look a bit tattered. Under OOB, German Infantry, the average infantry division is missing 20 strength points of infantry. I am missing on average 60 tanks out of every panzer division. And I am still getting only 300 infantry a turn replacements..and my infantry card is worth over a hundred.

I played the Avoid Stalingrad card, as Oct. 1st was the deadline for my second attempt, and I wish no further attempts. I will next play avoid Grozny and then Avoid Poti, so that I can go on a more defensive posture.

Well..here it is, the map. I like how there is snow in the hills, but not the plains around Millerowo.

[Bonners]

I dont know if this is deliberate or pure coincidence, but look at your lines, with you coming to the limit of your offensive and you are in a very similar position to how far the Germans actually got. The main difference that I can see is that you have got a lot further towards Astrakhan...oh and you have about 300k more troops on the field of battle.

As for the rivers, in the Uranus scenario I noticed that they gradually froze up and no longer became an obstacle depending on the size of the river and how many snow turns there have been in that region. We are coming towards the end of December and all rivers are now completely frozen. Both of us also have to squint at the screen to make out where the rivers are now[:D]

[LiquidSky]

It is deliberate but not entirely by my choice. I wanted to isolate Astrakahn from the Caucaus. But the Russians just keep putting on their reinforcements in my way. After I chew through one army, another takes it place. And my panzers are getting weaker and weaker. When I started along the Volga, they were pretty much full strength. Now the Wiking is at half, and most of them are at 3/4 strength.

My airforce is also getting weaker and weaker. I disbanded a couple Fighter squadrons, to keep the strength up in the rest, and I may have to disband another two. My stuka's are pretty much shot as a force, although I still have a very potent bomber force. The minors are getting ground down too, although I suspect that they will be beat pretty quickly if they defend anyways, so I might as well get some licks in with them before winter.

My axis minors spirit levels are all around 95%, so I won't be in danger of losing them until he seriously maul's them. My plan is to disband any unit that reaches 50% integrity, so that they can feed the other divisions. (axis or german)

[LiquidSky]

I love the way the weather bands across the map. And the way the hills get colder. However, we seem to have reached a snag in our game.

On a whim, at the end of my October 3rd turn, I clicked on the bridge hex at Saratov, curious to see how many planes I could bring on it.

I was surprised to see 9 squadrons of KG. Equalling 195 stacking points of air. SO I said 'what the 'ell' and hit the attack button.
And destroyed the bridge over the Volga from Stavka. The only bridge supplying most of the Russian army. Without realizing the ramifications I sent my turn to my opponent.

He can place no reinforcements in the Caucaus. (or east of the Volga). Most of his units are red. Not being one to complain (at first) I get the turn back and launch a few attacks with my German infantry beside my panzer korp on the Volga. And eliminate a fair number of units, pushing him back a hex. My armour stays put to rest and get some reinforcements (and I am still oblivious to the supply problem, but am wondering about it).

He gets his turn, and realizes that he cannot even move any of the units down there, and still unable to repair the bridge at Saratov, so he feels strongly towards discontinuing the game.

The bridges seem easier to destroy in the cold weather as well. I wonder if it has something to do with the rivers being 'downgraded' due to the frozen weather.

[Reconvet]

Would be a shame not to see this continue. If you look at the hits this AAR gets there are many observers who'd miss their frequent dose of interesting lecture. [:)]

To be honest: This is THE most important bridge of the game which I'd guard best as soviet player, with fighter reserves and a double portion of engineers, to have backup engineering points for the odd case of a bridgebusting offensive.

Surely his units south of Astrakhan can't be in the red already one turn after the bridge went down? Implications of your modded supply mechanism?

Couldn't you agree on a few turns of truce until he gets this bridge repaired, freezing all units apart from a few engineers he needs to repair the bridge?

[wallas]

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky

And destroyed the bridge over the Volga from Stavka. The only bridge supplying most of the Russian army. Without realizing the ramifications I sent my turn to my opponent.

Liquidsky over came what you would think would be the weather, and I had 5 fighter in the area to intercept. Even with an engineer there and repairing on my turn he can bomb every turn and keep the caucasus red. As a test I flew one fighter and a ravaged level bomber and bombed one of his bridges destroying it(during clear weather it took the whole soviet air farce to maybe accomplish this). There seems to be a bug with bridges freezing and getting weakened lol. Liquidsky last night as a test after we talked about it sent his fighter and junker 52 transports on bridge bombing missions as solo unit and succeded in bombing most of the bridges once they freeze. At this point the game is unplayable there is no way for me to counter or survive this bug. Trace supply to all the caucasus is Yellow near the wolga to red Turkish border, but worse all my units except a few hexes are red with lack of supply. As a side note it got me thinking about the Tiblisi card and it is a MUST play for the soviets once Rostov has fallen. It acts like stavka and generates about 1700 supply a turn. this supply allows 1 front with 1 full strength army to operate without having to trace to Stavka(and if your not isolated it its added to the stavka pool). I must admit this game is excellent and I was having a ton of desperate fun. This bug is unfortunate but I don't see any other option but throwing in the towel. I cannot overcome red supply no action points and no ammunition on three fronts. For those following the AAR I apolgise on quiting as that is not in my nature to do so. I would like to thank liquidsky for an excellent game, well played. Nothing worse then spending two months playing a game for it to implode due to a game problem. [:(]

[Reconvet]

Okay, sounds like a bad bug. But couldn't you agree on some turns of truce without moving units to let your units recover supplies and readiness, and introduce a houserule not to bomb bridges while this bug persists?

You two put a lot of time into this game, it really would be a shame to end it without trying to bypass this problem. I was very eager to see your winter offensive. [:(]

[LiquidSky]

The order of play would be...my turn: Bomb bridge. End turn: Calculate supply for opponent. His Turn: Repair bridge.

Because of this, you could, theoretically, keep the bridge bombed, so that supply NEVER flows over it...despite the bridge being repaired every turn.

As for the bridge bombing bug, I seem to be unable to recreate it in the Uranus scenario, it only appears for the frozen river bridges in our game. They bridge is given 0 hp's. THe unfrozen rivers still have 500 per level. I wonder if it is an artifact from playing a 1.04 scenario on a 1.05 engine, or if one of my mods somehow borked it. But it wasn't a bug that allowed me to bomb the Saratov bridge.

Anyways, for our next game, we will probably set Rule# 305: Bridges cannot be destroyed by combat ON. Or I will have to write a card to allow bridge building. I don't like the engineers building bridges as it is too easy, and bridges will pop up everywhere. (thus trivializing rivers).

[LiquidSky]

Actually, ending the game isn't that big of a problem, as we both considered this a 'learning' game. We know each other, so another game will be in the offering. I think I will wait for Vic to post the next patch though, and spend some time until then writing events.

[LiquidSky]

POST game thoughts:

Even if a Russian unit is small, and ripe for breaking...you will lose 1-2 strength points attacking it.

AA will grind your stuka force down, even if the Russians never intercept with planes.

Tblisi Supply center must be built.

Hardcore supply will give you less supply to your front units then regular supply. That is because the path from High Command to Unit pays a cheaper AP cost for supply movement, then from ARMY/CORP HQ to unit.

Infantry is your best bang for your PP buck. You only get 5-8 strength points for the other cards. You get like 50-100 for an infantry card.

The Russian airforce should never attack, but instead just intercept the Germans to wear them down. Then use it to attack.

The SS are easy to keep at full strength by playing one SS infantry card. ( I got 7300 men when I played it) Use them to lead all hard attacks.

You can fly air supply missions to an adjacent city for only 10AP cost to give the supply to your entire front. This is something else I am going to change: Rule# 857 Air Supply Type Movement is set at 9. Rule#858 Air Supply Range is set for 250 AP. I will probably change the first one to foot movement (0) and I might shorten the range (although foot movement will definitely shorten the range). Perhaps flying air supply should take all your movement, with the number of AP's spent in flight a multiplier (or divisor).

[Vic]

Hi guys,

Sorry for the sudden end. Are you playing PBEM++ or PBEM? In the latter case i would be able to make some manual changes to your savegame.

There is a bug with the frozen river bridge structural points indeed. Confirmed. Thanks for finding it, altough i really dislike you find it in such a long running game. However even if the bridge would act as normal there remains the flaw that after Stalingrad is encircled all soviet supply hinges on a single bridge!. I guess it could be overcome by positioning lots of engineers and flak and interceptors, but it is a little to gamey for my liking and to much a bad surprise for the player who does not know this soviet achilels heel. I am making some adjustments for v1.05 in making supply for Soviets easier to cross rivers (which is not a-historical) and maybe adding another bridge at Saratov.

I would be interested in some further feedback for supply states for German and Soviet units in the Caucasus as well. I already made some changes in v1.04 making Soviet sea supply cheaper 3->2ap so that the Soviets can keep fighting if close to rail even without Grozny supply center. I guess the core supply problems are in the middle of the steppe far away from rail?

Best,
Vic

[LiquidSky]

Its a race between losing too much infantry, and taking down the Russians. Even in my game, with the horrendous losses the Russians took...he was still going to get a dozen rifle divisions over then next few turns. And would have hurt me somewhere with them.

I try to only attack when I get a card to play to boost my attack..it seems to minimize losses by making the enemy retreat sooner. The axis minors always attack when they have 3 hex sides, or a weak unit in front of them. The axis minors are horrible on defense, so might as well kill some Russians with them before they die. Just try and keep their spirit over 90.

In my game, I disbanded the artillery for the trucks. Don't do that. Better to disband the motorized infantry divisions. They have less strength then an infantry division, and a useless little tank unit that will break if attacked.

The SS motorized brigade doesn't get divisional bonus. So it is better as a defensive unit, or disbanded to feed the two SS mot divs.

When you attack, you lose readiness and entrenchment level. So the counterattack could do more damage then your initial attack, and cost you defensive ground.

Artillery really rips entrenchment levels down. Airpower seems to do a little bit. Both reduce readiness. All serious attacks need them first.

Try to avoid giving your opponent multiple hexes on your units. There are few hexes that can withstand a 4 hexside assault.

[LiquidSky]

Ahh..hello Vic! no need to adjust our game, as my opponent and I are friends, and actually do the turns while talking to each other over Ventrilo. As a result, we have pretty much discussed this game to death, with no more suprises. We will start a new game, using the lessons learned in this one.

Looking at a supply layer from OKH, It costs 73AP's to get to Yenotayovsk on the Volga near Astrakahn. So my Panzer Korp is mostly yellow supply, which is why I am resting it for a couple of turns. The Rumanians are better off, as there is a rail head closer, and the Italians/Germans near the coast are practically right on top of one.

I do think that supply is a tad too easy, even with the hard core supply rules. Although I still have to be careful with HQ placement.

My post game discussion with my opponent came up with:

Extra bridges over the Volga....two edged, as extra bridges mean extra crossing points for the Germans.
Making the Volga bridges permanent/non bombable. My friend and I hate house rules in general.
Using the rulevar that stops bridges from being destroyed by combat. We like the idea of blowing bridges in the early game, just not the Volga bridges.
Making Supply movement cheaper for the Russians. Or cheaper over a destroyed bridge hexside.

I seem to recall a funny saying from the movie Kelly's Heroes.....the General was complaining that he ordered all enemy bridges to be blown over the rivers. An aide says they are blowing them, but that the Germans are rebuilding them at night...so he says, just blow them up again. It would suggest that some supply would still flow over the river. Perhaps river barges, ferries, or quick fix bridges. So even if mech units can't drive over the hex, supply would probably still move.

[LiquidSky]

Some more random observations:

Partisans only seem to show up in the original German areas...not in any of the newly conquered ones.

Units do train up slowly to their national maximums. Almost all my Minor Axis were at 40 exp. However, I don't think I ever noticed a unit gaining experience in combat.

Paulus has emergency troops....which makes him useful to keep in command. Instead I spent PP's to take units away from him to give to Manstein.

Emergency troops make wonderful invasion units. They take very little supply, you can carry a lot of them, and it doesn't matter if you lose them...as you will always make more.

[Keunert]

Thank you both for a very interesting aar. it played out different than my limited Trappenjagd experience and it sure is a completely different game compared to the Case Blue scenario's.

[Bonners]

ORIGINAL: Keunert

Thank you both for a very interesting aar. it played out different than my limited Trappenjagd experience and it sure is a completely different game compared to the Case Blue scenario's.

+1 loads of interesting stuff in here, have really enjoyed reading it.