Killing off a surrounded but superior Army... (no tk208 plz)

[Bullwinkle58]

Just a comment from a non-land guy:

Your Chinese stack has no HQ support at all. He does.

Where in his stack are all the vehicles? I don't know the Japanese OOB well enough. Are they all trucks, of are there tanks in some of the mixed LCUs?

When I've played the Chinese in AI games, I've only had great success in fighting huge Japanese stacks like this when the Chinese do the infantry, but I use other Allied armor to break through. Then you can get some major retreat routs.

[1EyedJacks]

You realize the defenders has a 2x terrain advantage in rough terrain - yes? (page 189 of manual). Also - if you review section 8.4.2.2 on page 197 you'll see the following:

Unit Fatigue, Terrain, Disruption, Experience, Morale, and Leadership directly impact combat firepower, losses, and the odds of attack.

You posted:

Ground combat at 85,39 (near Sian)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 71943 troops, 505 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 2754

Defending force 83266 troops, 825 guns, 456 vehicles, Assault Value = 2389

Allied adjusted assault: 756

Japanese adjusted defense: 2285

Allied assault odds: 1 to 3

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), supply(-)
Attacker:

So it looks like you both have roughly the same number of troops and your opponent is enjoying the terrain bonus. I'm just thinking that you need a bigger hammer... Like maybe 2 times bigger. [;)]

[obvert]

I think unless you have about 4k AV more coming soon, there is now no way to ever rout the IJA in this hex. His forts are built up, he's about to reinforce, and you don't even have enough for what is there now. Might be a good time to get into some good defensive territory and dig hard.

[KenchiSulla]

Note that he dropped 100 raw AV from your last delib attack. He is not getting supplies, it is just a mofo big stack... Another reason to play with stacking limits!

[btbw]

If you can defend hesex on E and SE then you can try defeat him.
Bring artillery units to hex. Dug troops with highest Admin skill leaders and enough support. Let them make lvl2 fort.
Use artillery for bombardment - you need continous bombardments with any results. Tired units switch to reserve for 1-2 turns and rotate them.
Assault troops also rotate combat/reserve (half of them resting in reserve, another defend hex from his counterattack).
Air raid from as much air groups as you have near (some of them use on incoming troops for prevent fast moving and raise his losses/disruption).
LRCAP from closes bases and watch if transport interception happen then dramatically increase numbers of LRCAP.
Your opponent already have supply issue so he eaten half of supplies atm. Dont hurry up with deliberate attacks and save your troops.
You need not much troops here - just enough for rotate reserve/combat and defend hex. Bring more HQs and AT units (may be flaks too if he start bomb you).

[aphrochine]

I've had this stack surrounded fully for 3+ months. They rebuild their units their adjusted AV has not been very affected. I send in LRCAP occasionally with no detection.

My HQs are in the hex behind. My understanding is Range 1, is adjacent hex, not same hex. Is that incorrect??

I 4E bombarded him from Ledo for 2 months solid, doing decent damage. Max Range ops losses and occasional LRCAP has forced me to stop this without running the longer ranged british 4E bombing capability into the ground. I'd rather save the strength for other things, especially now killing this stack is a lost cause.

I have no more troops to give this. To the east is a 5k stack trying to relieve it. I've stopped all efforts to break through that approach, but with 100 bombers hitting that target daily, not much I can do about it. CAP traps only stop the bombing for a week while sweeps clear the skies and reconstitutes

This has really been a bit frustrating, because it's a force cut off for 3 months and by the looks of his adjusted AV, still fighting strong. There has gotta be some kind of supply bleed through my hexsides or he's somehow flown massive air transports in with supply without me ever detecting it. But then that brings up another point, just how large of a stack should air transports be able to keep in good health...and without an airfield.

Oh well, it's done now. Thought I'd offer some closure to this thread.

[Crackaces]

You created an interesting situation in this game. I thought I would add some thoughts for newbies like me ..


Ok ... The surrounded enemy units cannot move from the hex. As aphrochine demonsntrated with the 'w' key he owns the inner-doors of the hex. The enemy has to bring a unit into the nex from the outside to free the units.

I am thinking the poster thought they created a "Stalingrad". It has been dissussed that no supply is getting into the surrounded units. or the hex. Tatically in this game, this only lowers the adjusted combat value, and zero supply at worse 1/2 the total combat value. As has been pointed out, the terrrain in the defense brings this value back. It is my observation that on an operational level in this game, things like morale are uneffected by starvation -- such as a IRF situation like Stalingrad. However, supply does affect the ability to recover. So as has been pointed out disabaled squads stay disabled and dead sqauds are not replaced. Thus it is quite possible to have zero supply in a non-malaria zone and live forever in a stalemate. Just like troops can dine and make bullets on fuel [i.e. Fortress Palembang [:'(]] in this game , there is some minimal level of beans and bullets in each hex that little MacGyver's and Robinson Crusoe's survive from [8D]. The final obsticle to this particular situation is a lack of air superiority. Simply, the enemy does not have to fly any supplies in, as the attacker does not have the adjusted combat value to cause harm, and quite the opposite is true. The ememy has frozen forces they can bomb at will. [i.e. Frozen menaing when I see the little arrow show you are moving I might take a crack at attacking unsupplied because op-mode offers a huge bonus] Your forces being attrited when combined with op-mode and disruption ... well I might prevail unsupplied ...

So some game behaviors that might be counter-intutive ...For example, exceeding stacking limits is far more devastating than being surrounded with no supply. Thus games with stacking limits have behaviors somewhat more in line with what is exepected although things can happen not as expected.

There is a situation in malaria zone like Burma where as over time disruption, disablement, and eventually squads in a non-base hex are destroyed. I do believe [somebody please correct me] that supply does effect the rate of disablement? This statment from an observation of surrounding a superior IJ force [almost the entire 15th Army [:D]] in the jungle hex south of Taung Gyi ,and noted the IJ's adjusted attack value changed very favorably in a very short period of time.

As a note, add stacking limits to this situation and the final coup-de-grace was reinforcements exceeding stacking limits in attempt to extract the situation leading to the destruction of the Army. Simply, the maneuver of bringing in excessive force to open the 'inner door' so to speak .. hastened the army's demise.

Just as a final thought .. intution is punished severly in this game at many levels. In my opinion, one must read the rules, read this forum especally the likes of Alfred, observe behaviors, and then formulate tatical, operational, and strategic maneuvers based on how the game works. Often this is counter-intutive in my opinion.

[witpqs]

IIRC zero supply cuts AV to 1/4.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

IIRC zero supply cuts AV to 1/4.

You are absoutely correct:

Unit Supply

a unit with 100% supply has its unadjusted assault value multiplied by 1
a unit with 75% supply is multiplied by 0.8
a unit with 50% supply is multiplied by 0.6
a unit with 25% supply is multiplied by 0.4
a unit with zero supply is multiplied by 0.25

Fortification Level

fort level 0 = 1x unadjusted assault value
fort level 1 = 1.1x
fort level 2 = 1.25x
fort level 3 = 1.5x
fort level 4 = 1.75x
fort level 5 = 2x
fort level 6 = 2.25x
fort level 7 = 2.5x
fort level 8 = 2.75x
fort level 9 = 3x

Then terrain modifiers on top ....rendering about 50% strength with the exception of clear terrain, rough jungle ... making no supply attacks a lot tougher than defending with no supoies in terms of AV and Odds ..Do I succeed in "winning" the battle, moving the defender, and increasing morale vs. attacking at less than 1:1 and suffering morale effects and in terms "losing" the battle as the attacker ...

One other thing to discuss is the effects of supplies on firepower, which seems to follow this table also .. that is I beleive total firepower is effected by supply as is being in a fort .. ???

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

Fortification Level

fort level 0 = 1x unadjusted assault value
fort level 1 = 1.1x
fort level 2 = 1.25x
fort level 3 = 1.5x
fort level 4 = 1.75x
fort level 5 = 2x
fort level 6 = 2.25x
fort level 7 = 2.5x
fort level 8 = 2.75x
fort level 9 = 3x

I calculated this one a bit differently, and I think I recall that Alfred did it the same way (before I did).

Forts 0 = 100%
Forts 9 = 300%

So, 300% - 100% = 200% total increment when forts are 9.

The steps in between are all even increments.

Therefore each step is worth 200% / 9 = 22.2222222...% increment (call it 22%).

I would amend your table to be:

Fortification Level

fort level 0 = 1x unadjusted assault value
fort level 1 = 1.22x
fort level 2 = 1.44x
fort level 3 = 1.66x
fort level 4 = 1.88x
fort level 5 = 2.10x
fort level 6 = 2.32x
fort level 7 = 2.54x
fort level 8 = 2.76x
fort level 9 = 3x

You could get more precise with the decimals, but that's pretty close.

[witpqs]

One other thing to discuss is the effects of supplies on firepower, which seems to follow this table also .. that is I beleive total firepower is effected by supply as is being in a fort .. ???

I'm sure that supply does affect firepower, but the game never gives us numbers for firepower anyway. Like you I assume the effect is similar to the AV vs Supply chart, but I'm always just winging it with firepower anyway. I haven't attempted to put together any calculations.

[btbw]

Situation very good if you can repeal any incoming attacks outside.
You stopping a whole army with heavy weapon so your opponent lost 1/5 of his troops for nothing.
Even if you cannot kill it - you can hold it forever.
Slightly rotate your forces - replace disrupted troops with rested behind corpses.
Dont use deliberate attacks offten but only when you have fully rested troops here (with builded forts 2lvl) and only for check his AV.
All time use bombardment from highest range guns.
Split troops which need rest (half of current) and set to Reserve for decrease disrupt/fatique.
Artillery units also hide in reserve if they need rest. Artillery like mortars or mount guns very vulnerable so dont use it in bombardments if you dont deliberate.
Bring more HQs - it save your supply greatly.

[inqistor]

Supply is more important for attacker (better to have 100%), than defender. In China you probably have shortage.
Rough description of land combat is:
1) Active devices fire onto other side. Enemy devices get destroyed/disabled/or suppressed.
2) AV is calculated, and all modifiers added
3) Final ratio calculation, and effect implemented (loses for both sides, and retreat)
Enemy have 100 less AV, than from your previous report, however you are 500 points shorter. Probably lots of your squads were disabled, so this time you had even less firepower, and was unable to suppress enough enemy devices. That is how he get so much AV.

Good indication of enemy weakness is ratio of his destroyed devices to disabled. Once disablements reach 50%, you have greater chance to target already disabled squads, so you destroy them this time.

From this report:

ORIGINAL: aphrochine

Allied ground losses:
6743 casualties reported
Squads: 127 destroyed, 720 disabled
Non Combat: 8 destroyed, 84 disabled
Engineers: 3 destroyed, 56 disabled
Guns lost 62 (3 destroyed, 59 disabled)

great difference, so enemy is in pretty good condition.

Overall, you will not recover your units without supply, and in enemy terrain. You have to move your battered units to supplied bases, and recover there. Hard to do in China.

[aphrochine]

Well, the battle continues on. So long as I keep the Army surrounded, his forces in the North are locked into their current positions. Given the amount of poking and prodding going on in Central and Southern China, I could use some stagnancy. The air war is continuing. The 23rd FG is regrouping at Ledo, getting some R&R and will be putting back to Sian soon, hopefully there is an airfield left when they return. The CAF is slowly coming online and gaining in experience with some battles and victories under their belts, but due to lack of reinforcements I have to be careful with their squadrons and avoid frequent exchanges.

The battle is far from over, but I dont see destroying the stack in the cards...no matter how long I keep them surrounded. My opponent and I have agreed to discuss the details of both sides at a future date. Hopefully he'll post his perspective and actions in this thread once that time comes.

[inqistor]

ORIGINAL: aphrochine

The battle is far from over, but I dont see destroying the stack in the cards...no matter how long I keep them surrounded. My opponent and I have agreed to discuss the details of both sides at a future date. Hopefully he'll post his perspective and actions in this thread once that time comes.

They are dying for sure, but slowly. Problem is you will not get them without enough supply. And you have to upgrade your firepower, move your battered LCUs to bases for recover.
Also you should have upgrade for your AT guns soon, so it will help somehow. Have you upgraded your Chinese Infantry Squads already?

[aphrochine]

ORIGINAL: inqistor
They are dying for sure, but slowly. Problem is you will not get them without enough supply. And you have to upgrade your firepower, move your battered LCUs to bases for recover.
Also you should have upgrade for your AT guns soon, so it will help somehow. Have you upgraded your Chinese Infantry Squads already?

North China has supply and can survive, but supply is lean. I have Liberator transports flying supplies directly into Sian from Ledo, but that's really a small trickle of supplies daily...at most probably 30-40/day. My supply isnt strong enough to regularly upgrade my devices. I'll prioritize the AT upgrades when that happens, as the relief effort is being spearhead by a couple of Tank Divisions. If I recover all of my disables, I should be near 3000 AV with my current troops in the hex. That will take some time as Sian never gets much higher than 3000 supply.

I think the real key to hunkering down is to continue to make the IJAF pay for routine bombing with heavy CAP traps intermittently. So far the 23rd FG has wracked up almost 1000 kills over the Chinese skies...so here's to another 1000 in '44!!!