Oh Bugger......

[castor troy]

wow, that was the one out of 100 chance [X(][X(][X(]

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Miller

Well s'pose the lesson is always have a seperate SCTF following your CV fleets.....I assume the enemy SCTF would have to fight through them first? Or is it random?

the other way around, have the CV fleet following your SC TF because otherwise you will find out your carriers move into a hex, are butchered by the enemy (usually only a sub) and then the rest of the fleet arrives. So, surface combat TF in the lead, followed by ASW TF (against the pesky subs) and last not least the carrier TFs.

[Justus2]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Miller

Well s'pose the lesson is always have a seperate SCTF following your CV fleets.....I assume the enemy SCTF would have to fight through them first? Or is it random?

the other way around, have the CV fleet following your SC TF because otherwise you will find out your carriers move into a hex, are butchered by the enemy (usually only a sub) and then the rest of the fleet arrives. So, surface combat TF in the lead, followed by ASW TF (against the pesky subs) and last not least the carrier TFs.

So does the game process the following TF with that delay? I wasnt sure, but I have been using ASW teams on follow (zero hex) for some of my convoys, just to track the ships better. But if the subs will get an attack in on the merchants, before the ASW arrives, that would be BAD....

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Justus2

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Miller

Well s'pose the lesson is always have a seperate SCTF following your CV fleets.....I assume the enemy SCTF would have to fight through them first? Or is it random?

the other way around, have the CV fleet following your SC TF because otherwise you will find out your carriers move into a hex, are butchered by the enemy (usually only a sub) and then the rest of the fleet arrives. So, surface combat TF in the lead, followed by ASW TF (against the pesky subs) and last not least the carrier TFs.

So does the game process the following TF with that delay? I wasnt sure, but I have been using ASW teams on follow (zero hex) for some of my convoys, just to track the ships better. But if the subs will get an attack in on the merchants, before the ASW arrives, that would be BAD....

I am not so sure that is the case. I think sub attacks are random-but don't know much about it.

[Miller]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Miller

Well s'pose the lesson is always have a seperate SCTF following your CV fleets.....I assume the enemy SCTF would have to fight through them first? Or is it random?

the other way around, have the CV fleet following your SC TF because otherwise you will find out your carriers move into a hex, are butchered by the enemy (usually only a sub) and then the rest of the fleet arrives. So, surface combat TF in the lead, followed by ASW TF (against the pesky subs) and last not least the carrier TFs.

Thanks for the advice. Obviously Kaga was dead but I was "lucky" that 2 of 3 16in hits on Akagi were duds. She should reach port unless his subs find her.

[AcePylut]

T-storms minus radar = Japs have no clue there are allies around, until they get lit up.
T-storms plus radar = Allies can vector into prime firing position all stealthy

plausible, most definitely.

[dr.hal]

What happened to all those Jap DD's long lance torpedoes???

[Miller]

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

What happened to all those Jap DD's long lance torpedoes???

Not a single torpedo was fired by the DDs. All the hits on the US ships were from my BBs or the CLAAs..........

[Miller]

Bumping this one from the back end of last year. Almost two years on in the game almost the same thing happens in reverse, revenge is sweet[:D]

--------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Kunashiri at 125,52, Range 1,000 Yards

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-5 Hellcat: 35 destroyed
SB2C-4 Helldiver: 7 destroyed
TBM-3 Avenger: 7 destroyed

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu
BB Yamato, Shell hits 17
BB Musashi, Shell hits 80, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
CL Agano
CL Noshiro
DD Isokaze
DD Amatsukaze, Shell hits 4, on fire
DD Tokitsukaze, Shell hits 5

Allied Ships
CV Ticonderoga, Shell hits 29, on fire
CV Bennington, Shell hits 45, and is sunk
CVL Bataan, Shell hits 3
BB Missouri, Shell hits 20, heavy fires
CLAA Oakland
CL Mobile, Shell hits 44, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Ammen
DD Anthony
DD Aulick, Shell hits 2
DD Bennett
DD Bennion
DD Burns
DD Bush
DD Callaghan
DD Caperton
DD Capps

[Empire101]

I think the title of this thread sums it up perfectly.

Radar........

If only Japanese ships were equipped with these, then us JFB's might stand a chance in a situation like Miller faced.

[obvert]

Well, I'm certainly not fond of the escorts of Japanese CVs and their (in)ability to fire back or screen the CVs, which I discovered on turn two of my game with Historiker. When a TF with a 22 knot BB managed to somehow get in range of the KB moving at 28 knots, and stay there, (then catch them again!) raining big shells on the CVs, the two BBs did relatively little to respond. Certainly not a plausible situation in reality, where those BBs and CAs would have ducked in front and blasted away recklessly while the CVs would have run to a safe distance behind them. Not firing and not moving to screen has nothing to do with radar if the enemy is visible in daylight.

So even in good visibility the Air combat TF BB/CA are ineffectual against surface combatants, even those that are slower than the CV TF. There is nothing we can do but not get caught, I guess, or always travel with a SCTF in the same hex as the CVs. The game is not reality. That's what I learned (the hard way).

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: obvert

Well, I'm certainly not fond of the escorts of Japanese CVs and their (in)ability to fire back or screen the CVs, which I discovered on turn two of my game with Historiker. When a TF with a 22 knot BB managed to somehow get in range of the KB moving at 28 knots, and stay there, (then catch them again!) raining big shells on the CVs, the two BBs did relatively little to respond. Certainly not a plausible situation in reality, where those BBs and CAs would have ducked in front and blasted away recklessly while the CVs would have run to a safe distance behind them. Not firing and not moving to screen has nothing to do with radar if the enemy is visible in daylight.

So even in good visibility the Air combat TF BB/CA are ineffectual against surface combatants, even those that are slower than the CV TF. There is nothing we can do but not get caught, I guess, or always travel with a SCTF in the same hex as the CVs. The game is not reality. That's what I learned (the hard way).

Right. The game is hexes. Inside the hex there is no tactical geometry, only random numbers. So expecting screens to precede carriers in their historic posture is always going to diappoint. But what takes away also gives back. Imagine the complexity if big guns, or subs, could fire between hexes.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Miller

Looking back and having viewed a few turns since, it looks like surface radar is the key. I don't think any IJN warships can upgrade to get this yet in my game.........

Yes, "maximum surface visibility 2,000 yards. And your SCTF never made visual contact at all. This was all radar. And, radar upgrades help Japan a bit but not that much.

There is a luck factor involve because if your surface TF had made visual contact at 2,000 yards then the long lance would have come into play. So, it could have been a disaster for the Allies. But you were only at that range for a brief time so the odds were against you. I suppose radar helps with evasion just as much as it does for attack.

I should add that at 2,000 yards at night there is also a very good chance that your BBs would not fire their big guns or fire and miss. This happens more often than not. As it should....

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: obvert

Well, I'm certainly not fond of the escorts of Japanese CVs and their (in)ability to fire back or screen the CVs, which I discovered on turn two of my game with Historiker. When a TF with a 22 knot BB managed to somehow get in range of the KB moving at 28 knots, and stay there, (then catch them again!) raining big shells on the CVs, the two BBs did relatively little to respond. Certainly not a plausible situation in reality, where those BBs and CAs would have ducked in front and blasted away recklessly while the CVs would have run to a safe distance behind them. Not firing and not moving to screen has nothing to do with radar if the enemy is visible in daylight.

So even in good visibility the Air combat TF BB/CA are ineffectual against surface combatants, even those that are slower than the CV TF. There is nothing we can do but not get caught, I guess, or always travel with a SCTF in the same hex as the CVs. The game is not reality. That's what I learned (the hard way).

Right. The game is hexes. Inside the hex there is no tactical geometry, only random numbers. So expecting screens to precede carriers in their historic posture is always going to diappoint. But what takes away also gives back. Imagine the complexity if big guns, or subs, could fire between hexes.

But I seem to remember that in UV screens did work and frequently the escort was sacrificed and the escorted saved. Never happens in AE.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: obvert

Well, I'm certainly not fond of the escorts of Japanese CVs and their (in)ability to fire back or screen the CVs, which I discovered on turn two of my game with Historiker. When a TF with a 22 knot BB managed to somehow get in range of the KB moving at 28 knots, and stay there, (then catch them again!) raining big shells on the CVs, the two BBs did relatively little to respond. Certainly not a plausible situation in reality, where those BBs and CAs would have ducked in front and blasted away recklessly while the CVs would have run to a safe distance behind them. Not firing and not moving to screen has nothing to do with radar if the enemy is visible in daylight.

So even in good visibility the Air combat TF BB/CA are ineffectual against surface combatants, even those that are slower than the CV TF. There is nothing we can do but not get caught, I guess, or always travel with a SCTF in the same hex as the CVs. The game is not reality. That's what I learned (the hard way).

Right. The game is hexes. Inside the hex there is no tactical geometry, only random numbers. So expecting screens to precede carriers in their historic posture is always going to diappoint. But what takes away also gives back. Imagine the complexity if big guns, or subs, could fire between hexes.

But I seem to remember that in UV screens did work and frequently the escort was sacrificed and the escorted saved. Never happens in AE.

Really?

Edit to Add: I haven't saved any examples, but I recall seeing plenty of times when an escort saved protected ships.

[helldiver]

Nice long-range bump, Miller. One of my major personal problems with AE is remembering to take the looong view before I make too many assumptions.... man, this game is a complex education, no?

Regards,
Helldiver

[KenchiSulla]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: obvert

Well, I'm certainly not fond of the escorts of Japanese CVs and their (in)ability to fire back or screen the CVs, which I discovered on turn two of my game with Historiker. When a TF with a 22 knot BB managed to somehow get in range of the KB moving at 28 knots, and stay there, (then catch them again!) raining big shells on the CVs, the two BBs did relatively little to respond. Certainly not a plausible situation in reality, where those BBs and CAs would have ducked in front and blasted away recklessly while the CVs would have run to a safe distance behind them. Not firing and not moving to screen has nothing to do with radar if the enemy is visible in daylight.

So even in good visibility the Air combat TF BB/CA are ineffectual against surface combatants, even those that are slower than the CV TF. There is nothing we can do but not get caught, I guess, or always travel with a SCTF in the same hex as the CVs. The game is not reality. That's what I learned (the hard way).

Right. The game is hexes. Inside the hex there is no tactical geometry, only random numbers. So expecting screens to precede carriers in their historic posture is always going to diappoint. But what takes away also gives back. Imagine the complexity if big guns, or subs, could fire between hexes.

But I seem to remember that in UV screens did work and frequently the escort was sacrificed and the escorted saved. Never happens in AE.

Screening happens (troop/cargo convoys). The only surface combat I had with CVs was in my game vs Arnhem. My ships managed to sink Wasp and I think its escorts were ineffective. Need to check the date Wasp sank to be sure on my losses..

Edit: found the combat report... 3 lonely destroyers

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jun 28, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Aoba Island at 125,150, Range 2,000 Yards

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 20 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 8 destroyed
TBF-1 Avenger: 10 destroyed

Japanese Ships
DD Hatsukaze
DD Natsushio, Shell hits 14, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Kisaragi, Shell hits 2

Allied Ships
CV Wasp, Shell hits 10, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
CA Minneapolis
CLAA San Juan, Shell hits 1
CLAA Oakland, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
CL Helena, Shell hits 2
DD Taylor
DD Waller
DD Laffey, Shell hits 3, heavy fires
DD Duncan
DD Woodworth, Shell hits 1
DD Bailey
DD Caldwell
DD Frazier



Reduced sighting due to 17% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 17% moonlight: 3,000 yards
Range closes to 24,000 yards...
Range closes to 19,000 yards...
Range closes to 14,000 yards...
Range closes to 9,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 9,000 yards
Range closes to 6,000 yards...
Range closes to 4,000 yards...
Range closes to 2,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 2,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 2,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages CV Wasp at 2,000 yards
Fuel storage explosion on CV Wasp
DD Natsushio engages CV Wasp at 2,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages CLAA Oakland at 2,000 yards
DD Laffey engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
DD Waller engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
DD Kisaragi engages DD Laffey at 2,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Laffey at 2,000 yards
CL Helena engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
DD Laffey engages DD Kisaragi at 2,000 yards
CA Minneapolis engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
CL Helena engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Woodworth at 2,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages CV Wasp at 2,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Laffey at 2,000 yards
CL Helena engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
CLAA San Juan engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 3,000 yards
DD Kisaragi engages DD Laffey at 3,000 yards
Ammo storage explosion on CV Wasp
CV Wasp sunk by DD Hatsukaze at 3,000 yards
Range increases to 5,000 yards
DD Kisaragi engages DD Woodworth at 5,000 yards
DD Laffey engages DD Natsushio at 5,000 yards
Allied Task Force Manages to Escape
Task forces break off...

[Knavey]

Looks like you had your CVs screen the escorts. Didn't have that button checked did you? [:D]

[Ron Saueracker]

Main problem is the old line of battle design...still amazed that a game with such a huge naval element never got a decent surface combat model.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58




Right. The game is hexes. Inside the hex there is no tactical geometry, only random numbers. So expecting screens to precede carriers in their historic posture is always going to diappoint. But what takes away also gives back. Imagine the complexity if big guns, or subs, could fire between hexes.

But I seem to remember that in UV screens did work and frequently the escort was sacrificed and the escorted saved. Never happens in AE.

Screening happens (troop/cargo convoys). The only surface combat I had with CVs was in my game vs Arnhem. My ships managed to sink Wasp and I think its escorts were ineffective. Need to check the date Wasp sank to be sure on my losses..

Edit: found the combat report... 3 lonely destroyers

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jun 28, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Aoba Island at 125,150, Range 2,000 Yards

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 20 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 8 destroyed
TBF-1 Avenger: 10 destroyed

Japanese Ships
DD Hatsukaze
DD Natsushio, Shell hits 14, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Kisaragi, Shell hits 2

Allied Ships
CV Wasp, Shell hits 10, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
CA Minneapolis
CLAA San Juan, Shell hits 1
CLAA Oakland, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
CL Helena, Shell hits 2
DD Taylor
DD Waller
DD Laffey, Shell hits 3, heavy fires
DD Duncan
DD Woodworth, Shell hits 1
DD Bailey
DD Caldwell
DD Frazier



Reduced sighting due to 17% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 17% moonlight: 3,000 yards
Range closes to 24,000 yards...
Range closes to 19,000 yards...
Range closes to 14,000 yards...
Range closes to 9,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 9,000 yards
Range closes to 6,000 yards...
Range closes to 4,000 yards...
Range closes to 2,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 2,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 2,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages CV Wasp at 2,000 yards
Fuel storage explosion on CV Wasp
DD Natsushio engages CV Wasp at 2,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages CLAA Oakland at 2,000 yards
DD Laffey engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
DD Waller engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
DD Kisaragi engages DD Laffey at 2,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Laffey at 2,000 yards
CL Helena engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
DD Laffey engages DD Kisaragi at 2,000 yards
CA Minneapolis engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
CL Helena engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Woodworth at 2,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages CV Wasp at 2,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Laffey at 2,000 yards
CL Helena engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
CLAA San Juan engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 3,000 yards
DD Kisaragi engages DD Laffey at 3,000 yards
Ammo storage explosion on CV Wasp
CV Wasp sunk by DD Hatsukaze at 3,000 yards
Range increases to 5,000 yards
DD Kisaragi engages DD Woodworth at 5,000 yards
DD Laffey engages DD Natsushio at 5,000 yards
Allied Task Force Manages to Escape
Task forces break off...

hard to screen something when the battle starts at only 2000 yards