Supply & Control clarification

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yvesp
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RE: Supply & Control clarification

Post by yvesp »

If Columbia can take Venezuela the USA (Columbia's controlling major power) can choose to liberate Venezuela or not (see the RAW for Liberation Effects).

I would have thought so.
However,
Instead, the major power controlling its
capital can liberate it during the peace step if that major power is
from the other side to the major power that conquered it.

And in that case, the capital is controlled by Columbi, a Minor country.
Hence, it precludes liberation. I believe this part of the rule requires
clarification when the country that controls the capital is a minor.

Thanks!
Yves
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RE: Supply & Control clarification

Post by Extraneous »

Original: yvesp
Instead, the major power controlling its capital can liberate it during the peace step if that major power is from the other side to the major power that conquered it.

And in that case, the capital is controlled by Columbia, a Minor country. Hence, it precludes liberation. I believe this part of the rule requires clarification when the country that controls the capital is a minor.

From the RAW
2.5 Control

Changing control
Control of a hex changes when:
An enemy land unit (except for 13.1 Partisans Option 46, and supply units ~ see 22.4.10 Supply units (MiF option 6)) enters it (the major power entering with the most factors if more than one); or
An island, territory, minor country or major power is conquered (see 13.7.1 Conquest); or
France is declared Vichy (see 17. Vichy France); or
It is a communist Chinese-controlled city entered by a nationalist Chinese land unit or vice versa; or during the liberation step you return control to the original owner (see 13.7.5 reversion).


Note that even though major powers may control minor countries (see 9.8 Aligning minors & 13.7.1 Conquest), it is the minors themselves that control hexes in that minor.

However, hexes taken from an enemy major power (or its controlled minors) are controlled by the major power taking them regardless of whether those hexes are taken by units of the major power or its controlled minors, unless the major powers are not at war with each other (in which case the hexes are controlled by the minor country taking them).

If a minor country controls enemy major power (or its controlled minors) hexes and the minor’s controlling major power comes to war with that major power, then those hexes immediately become controlled by the minor’s controlling major power.

From the RAW
13.7.1 Conquest
You can only conquer a home country or territory if you are at war with the major power or minor country that controls it. All conquest in a turn occurs simultaneously.
Minor countries never conquer anything. The home country or territory is instead conquered by the minor’s controlling major power (unless it is not at war, see 2.5 Control). You cannot conquer a conquered minor country or territory. You may only liberate or revert it (see 13.7.5 Liberation).

13.7.5 Liberation
Conquered minor countries, major powers, and Commonwealth home countries (and France after a Vichy government is installed) may not be conquered. Instead, the major power controlling its capital can liberate it during the peace step if that major power is from the other side to the major power that conquered it. You can’t be liberated in the same turn you were conquered (only possible in Italy’s case).

You can choose not to liberate a country that could be liberated. If you do that, the country suffers the effects of partisans as if it were marked in red on the Partisan table, until it is liberated (see 13.1 Partisans Option 46). When France is liberated, Free France ceases to exist and all Free French units, and Territories become French. France is controlled by the liberating major power and is at war with all countries Free France was at war with. The France entry on the partisan table reverts to France (from occupied France).

When China is liberated, the liberator may choose to revert each Chinese hex to the Communist or the Nationalist Chinese (some to one and some to the other).

Liberation effects
Return half of the liberated country’s units not currently in the game (by type, rounding fractions up) to its force pools (except France’s if Vichy was installed). Liberated minors’ units join the force pools of their liberating major power.

A liberated major power or minor country gets back control of all hexes it controlled at the start of the 1939 campaign game that are now controlled by the liberating major power. Other major powers on its side can give back such territory that they control.

If you liberate the original home country of a conquered major power or minor country, it again becomes the home country for its units, replacing any alternative home country.

A liberated major power can co-operate (see 18 Co-operation) with any major power that returns all eligible territory to it. If they could return territory but don’t, they can never co-operate with the liberated major power.

For the remainder of the game, the liberating major power controls the liberated major power for all purposes.

Liberated minor countries are aligned, and may co-operate, with the liberating major power.

Reversion
You can return a hex or minor country you control to the major power that controlled it in 1939 during any liberation step. You may revert Chinese hexes to either the Communists or Nationalists. You can also return control of a minor country hex to that minor country. You can only return hexes or minor countries to a major power or minor country that is on your side and is not currently completely conquered.

Reversion, Liberation, or not Liberation
No major power controlled Venezuela in 1939 so it cannot be reverted.
The minor power Columbia controls Venezuela so it cannot be liberated.

So the choice has to be not Liberation

The peaceful people of Venezuela suffer under the heavy hand of Columbia until the USA goes to war.

[:D] I like it [:D]


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yvesp
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RE: Supply & Control clarification

Post by yvesp »

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

The peaceful people of Venezuela suffer under the heavy hand of Columbia until the USA goes to war.

Woo.
I found something ; Venezuela would have been aligned to the USA in the intial declaration of war by Japan. How would that interfer with the rules and the consequences I noted ? I still believe the conclusions would stay valid.

USA going to war with Germany would not reverse the Venezuelian hexes to US control.
Even in the case of war with Japan, I believe that the rule
If a minor country controls enemy major power (or its controlled minors) hexes and the minor’s controlling major power comes to war with that major power, then those hexes immediately become controlled by the minor’s controlling major power. doesn't fire because said hexes don't qualify.

And the conclusion that Caracas cannot be a secondary source to the USA stays valid in my opinion.

Yves
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RE: Supply & Control clarification

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: yvesp
If Columbia can take Venezuela the USA (Columbia's controlling major power) can choose to liberate Venezuela or not (see the RAW for Liberation Effects).

I would have thought so.
However,
Instead, the major power controlling its
capital can liberate it during the peace step if that major power is
from the other side to the major power that conquered it.

And in that case, the capital is controlled by Columbi, a Minor country.
Hence, it precludes liberation. I believe this part of the rule requires
clarification when the country that controls the capital is a minor.

Thanks!
Yves
Minor countries can not conquer other countries. Therefore the capital of a conquered country is always controlled by a major power.
Steve

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yvesp
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RE: Supply & Control clarification

Post by yvesp »

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Minor countries can not conquer other countries. Therefore the capital of a conquered country is always controlled by a major power.

Good to know.
That eliminates an illogical situation.

Yves
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RE: Supply & Control clarification

Post by Extraneous »

Original: yvesp
Woo.
I found something; Venezuela would have been aligned to the USA in the initial declaration of war by Japan. How would that interfere with the rules and the consequences I noted? I still believe the conclusions would stay valid.

USA going to war with Germany would not reverse the Venezuelan hexes to US control.

Even in the case of war with Japan, I believe that the rule

If a minor country controls enemy major power (or its controlled minors) hexes and the minor’s controlling major power comes to war with that major power, then those hexes immediately become controlled by the minor’s controlling major power. doesn't fire because said hexes don't qualify.

And the conclusion that Caracas cannot be a secondary source to the USA stays valid in my opinion.

Yves
From the RAW
2.4.2 Tracing supply
A secondary supply source for a unit is:
An HQ the unit co-operates with (see 18.1); or
The capital city of a minor country controlled by the unit’s major power; or
The capital city of a major power, or a minor country, conquered by the unit’s major power, or by a major power the unit co-operates with.

The USA cannot enter Japanese controlled hexes in Venezuela.

The USA can have peacekeepers follow the Columbians (who would change the control of the hexes to USA).

When the USA becomes an Active major power then it can liberate Venezuela during the End of Turn Stage ~ Peace Step.

When liberated Venezuela becomes aligned and may co-operate with the USA.
When liberated Caracas, Venezuela can be a secondary source to the USA.

Because:
It's not a HQ unit.
The capital city Venezuela is not controlled by the unit’s major power.
The capital city of a Venezuela is not conquered by a major power.

Original: Steve
Minor countries cannot conquer other countries. Therefore the capital of a conquered country is always controlled by a major power.
From the RAW
Minor countries never conquer anything. The home country or territory is instead conquered by the minor’s controlling major power (unless it is not at war, see 2.5 control)."


Basically this only means that a Neutral major power cannot choose to liberate or revert a minor power. It has to choose "Not Liberate" until the Neutral major power becomes an Active major power. Until liberated Caracas, Venezuela cannot be a secondary source to the USA.

After the Neutral major power becomes a Active major power it can choose revert, liberate, or not liberate a minor power during the End of Turn Stage ~ Peace Step.


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RE: Supply & Control clarification

Post by Extraneous »

The USA is a Neutral major power.
France and its minor powers are at war with Japan.
The USSR and its minor powers are at war with Japan.
Columbia is a minor power (aligned with the USA) at war with Japan.
Venezuela is a conquered minor power (and was aligned with the USA before conquest by Japan) (See map).
Venezuela cannot be reverted.
An Active major power can choose to liberate Venezuela or not during the End of Turn Stage ~ Peace Step (Venezuela can’t be liberated in the same turn it was conquered).

13.3.3 US ENTRY ACTIONS
28. USSR declares war on Japan (Ja) -17. Remove 1 USA entry action chit from the Japanese pool and 70% chance to remove another.


Columbia conquers Venezuela
Caracas, Venezuela cannot be a secondary supply source to the USA.
USA units cannot enter Japanese controlled hexes.
USA units can enter French or USSR controlled hexes with permission.
Venezuela is subject to Partisans (option 46) who would be placed by Japan.
Venezuela can only be liberated once the USA has become an Active major power.

Since this is a liberation not an incomplete conquest or complete conquest.
Venezuelan hexes would remain controlled by whoever controlled the hexes (Japan, France, the USSR, or the USA).
Venezuelan resources would be available to whoever controlled the hexes.
France, USSR, and Columbia can continue to take hexes from the Japanese.


France (and/or their minors) or the USSR (and/or their minors) conquers Venezuela
Since both France and the USSR are Active major powers at war with Japan they are handled normally (Active major power vs. Active major power in a conquered minor power).

Liberation
Venezuela would become aligned with the Active major power that liberated it.
All Venezuelan hexes would change to the Active major power that liberated it.
Caracas, Venezuela would become a secondary supply source to that Active major power.
All Venezuelan resources would become available to that Active major power.


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RE: Supply & Control clarification

Post by brian brian »

so can't find the detail buried in this thread about how MWiF resolves USA being an in-active Major Power that is required to align a minor? or paper WiF for that matter, had never thought about it.



I like the possible situation though. In the fall of 1940 I think Japan could get a +3.7 with 3 units (12+ takes the hex) vs a clear Colombian invasion hex, or a +5 but only with the 2-4 Marine division by itself (13, 16, or 18+ takes it). Assuming there is a clear hex on the Gulf of Panama to invade on the new map. (So I am kinda intrigued to see the NW coast of South America now). High risk, some reward perhaps. Limited overseas supply would make the port hexes, if any, on the Pacific side of Columbia very important. OR, you could seize some French bases first and improve things.....but US entry would be cruising along pretty fast if you DOW France. Fast enough for Japan to walk though all that jungle to Venezuela? Or for that matter, to land a surviving invasion unit without having it disorganized (Flying-boat perhaps) to march on Bogota before the Colombian MIL appears. ? It would all depend on the new map I think but perhaps be fun to try some time.
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Orm
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RE: Supply & Control clarification

Post by Orm »

Here is a picture of Central America.

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RE: Supply & Control clarification

Post by Orm »

And NW of South America.

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RE: Supply & Control clarification

Post by brian brian »

thanks Orm! that would make it a -0.3 at best to land in Columbia...all Jungle there. And it would be very difficult for the Japanese to assemble 8 air-to-ground factors on their 5 carriers with range enough to sail to the Gulf of Panama, though not completely impossible in S/O 40 (necessitating a N/D 40 landing after a re-base to Truk in S/O), and those would be halved in jungle. So perhaps success on 16+, unless the fractional turned up 3 or less. (Have never rolled a negative fractional, forget how that works).

The safer bet would be to land in Ecuador first then, though only on a 16 or better would a surviving invading unit not disorganize, and then have to fight the MIL in that country starting the next turn. No Japanese TRS could reach for coastal re-org, or to land a flying-boat to do it either. So only really possible without limited overseas supply in play as then the invaders could never re-organize unless they were lucky on the landing roll, whichever beach is selected. Again assuming no seizure of French bases in Polynesia first.

And all the same calculus for a landing in Panama, which could be exciting if the USA was real sleepy about having a land unit in a port, and the players could see a major, major reality problem WiF has vis-a-vis an Axis attack on Panama while the USA is neutral. But that is beyond the scope of MWiF to fix. Germany has a much better shot at it after the Euro-Axis take Gibraltar though (invading from the 3 box), possibly trapping a whole lot of US fleet in the Pacific for a few turns when the USA can enter the war.

But Japanese adventures in South America do make a good test case I think. I would just get a saved game set up and go for it until you got the necessary roll and see what happens from there. Testing would probably speed along by just landing in the clear hex in Panama and then see what happens when Japan fights with USA peacekeepers. Neat.
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RE: Supply & Control clarification

Post by Extraneous »

From the RAW.
9.1 Neutral major powers
A major power is a ‘neutral major power’ if it is not at war with any other major power. If it is at war with at least 1 major power, it’s called an ‘active major power’.

Units controlled by a neutral major power can only enter hexes controlled by that major power, by a minor country aligned with it, or by a minor country it is at war with.

They can also go to sea. A neutral major power can’t co-operate with any other major power (see 18 Co-operation).

Neutral major powers must always pick either a pass or a combined action (exception Germany in 1939 ~ see 10.1 Action types). Each naval unit a neutral major power moves (rather than each task force) counts as 1 naval move - every 5 convoy points counts as a naval unit (SiF option 9: every 2 convoy points (or any spare point) is a naval unit).

9.7 Controlling new minors
You now allocate control of minor countries declared war on this step, to a major power on the other side (see 19.2 Entering the war), in order of declaration. The minor country is at war with everyone its controlling major power is at war with, as well as the major powers that declared war on it. Who ever takes control of them in or sets up its forces immediately (see 19.4 Minor country units).

19.2 Entering the war
A minor country enters the war when:
A major power declares war on it (it joins the other side); or
It aligns with a major power (see 9.8 Aligning minors).

If a minor country aligns with a major power, it is controlled by that major power.

If an Axis major power declares war on a minor country on the American map, it may only align with the USA.

When Germany makes her compulsory declaration of war on Poland (see 9.3 Compulsory declarations), it may only align with the Commonwealth.

In every other case, when one or more major powers declare war on a minor country, choose an active major power on the other side to align with it.

If there is more than one eligible major power, offer the minor to the major power whose capital city is closest to the minor’s capital (any home country in the case of the Commonwealth). If it declines, offer it to the next closest, and so on.

If every eligible major power declines, the minor (and all its controlled minors and territories) is immediately conquered by the attacking major power (see 13.7.1 Conquest).

How Neutral major powers resolve aligning minor powers that have been DoWed

Neutral major powers units can only enter hexes controlled by a minor country it is at war with.
Since the USA is a Neutral major power and has not made a DoW against Venezuela. It cannot enter Venezuelan controlled hexes with USA Units (see 9.1 Neutral major powers).

Japan an Active major power has made a DoW against Columbia.
Columbia is at war with Japan (a major power) and its minor powers (Venezuela) (see 9.7 Controlling new minors).


What happens if Japan DoW's France or the Netherlands

US Entry action 33. Japan declares war on the CW, France or Netherlands (Ja) 3 & 5 ~ Two US entry chits for the Japanese pool with 80% chance of another.

3) The USA also picks 1 extra chit a turn for each action (except conquests by surrender). It must go into the marked entry pool.
5) Rolled once per city, major power, neutral minor country or search.


When Japan invades Columbia what if they use: (the Vassal maps make it easier to find these at this time)

Hiva Qa (minor port), Marqueasas Islands - the East Pacific sea zone (Fr) it is next to the Gulf of Panama sea zone.
Papeete (major port), French Polynesia (Fr) ~ the Austral sea zone (Fr) it is next to the East Pacific sea zone (Fr).



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RE: Supply & Control clarification

Post by Extraneous »

[&:] 30. Allies align minor (Ge/It) 50% for a chit removed. [&:]

This is not defined in the RAW.

Does this only occur when the Allies peacefully align a minor (see 9.8 Aligning minors)?

Or when the Allies peacefully align a minor power (see 9.8 Aligning minors) and when the Allies align a minor power due to a DoW.
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Orm
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RE: Supply & Control clarification

Post by Orm »

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

[&:] 30. Allies align minor (Ge/It) 50% for a chit removed. [&:]

This is not defined in the RAW.

Does this only occur when the Allies peacefully align a minor (see 9.8 Aligning minors)?

Or when the Allies peacefully align a minor power (see 9.8 Aligning minors) and when the Allies align a minor power due to a DoW.
It is defined in RAW. See cut in part below.



Cut from RAW: 13.3.3 US entry actions
....
The entry actions
....
19 & 30. Minor aligned - this occurs when the minor country aligns
with a major power (see 9.8). A minor that joins a side because a
major power declares war on it doesn’t count.
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Extraneous
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RE: Supply & Control clarification

Post by Extraneous »

ORIGINAL: Orm

It is defined in RAW. See cut in part below.

Cut from RAW: 13.3.3 US entry actions
....
The entry actions
....
19 & 30. Minor aligned - this occurs when the minor country aligns
with a major power (see 9.8). A minor that joins a side because a
major power declares war on it doesn’t count.


Ahhh I was lookin under "US entry action 30" and it was under US entry action "19 & 30. Minor aligned".


Thanks [;)]
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