Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim)

[sillyflower]

Looks like Jim has you by the tail feathers.

You need to focus on narrow breakthroughs which will force a retreat. Mobile divs are there to manoeuver and the inf to do the heavy fighting. The best german players focus on logistics and how to use LW and HQBUs to get maximum petrol to mobile forces.

You won't get pockets worth anything unless thoe mobile forces get through hid defences. That is usually best done with the inf. blowing a bit of a hole 1st. With this level of progress Jim will be getting all his industry away. If you don't get pockets, you won't kill enough Russians and the blizzard will kill you.

You may want to study the AARs of Pelton and others as you can learn a lot from them.

[DivePac88]

Situation Map for T4 July 17,1941 -

[Klydon]

Wow that is a lot of infantry marching through the swamp.

[DivePac88]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Wow that is a lot of infantry marching through the swamp.

Hi there Klydon... They are the 2nd Army, and are moving up to take up position south of the the 4th Army.

I think that Stavka has tied there shoelaces together, as there are moving slowly. So I suppose I should have routed them north of the marches, never-mind.

[DivePac88]

The situation for turn 6, the week starting on the 24th July 1941.

Now I think that some of the ‘dreaded all-knowing them’ think that I am doing very badly so far in this campaign, and they are probably right. Mr Burn’s generalship has been very skilled, and his forward defensive/retire tactics have been very effective.

I am maybe 2 weeks behind some people’s schedule, but I am not too concerned. My mobile divisions are now all in good condition after their short rest, and my excellent infantry divisions are now up, and knocking the enemy around.

Army Group North.

I think that all the signs point to Mr Burns having heavily reinforced the north, and I can see a large strategic force forming south of Lake Ilem, before the Valdai Hills. Also recon is showing that he has built a line of fortified units just south of Leningrad, watch puzzles me somewhat considering his strategy so far.

I sent the 50 army corps which contains 4 divisions to take Tallinn, as I think he has reinforced the city substantially. Plus I don’t want any thorns in my side, which take good divisions away from the main objectives. Meanwhile 26 army corps will hold the line of the River Narva, until 50 army corps can move up and reinforcement any assault.

The 4th panzer group is still operating in a salient east of Pskov, the main reason for this operation was to force the enemy withdraw from the Pskov area. But Mr Burns has held his nerve and will probably withdraw in the next week, which has undoubtedly given him time to reinforce the approaches to Novgorod.

Army Group Center.

Basically 2nd and 3rd panzer groups are now in position awaiting the 4th and 9th armies respectively, to make good penetrations of the enemy front line. This I should be able the next week, and need good wide penetrations to make deep mobile salients.

The plan is for the 3rd panzer group to clear the north bank of the River Divina opposite Vitebsk, and then swing south to Smolensk. The 2nd panzer group is to advance east just south of Mogilev and the move up the east bank of the River Oster to the city of Smolensk.

Army Group South.

This week I pushed back the enemy on the front between Korets in the north and Mogilev-Podolsly in the south; this was done to give good start-lines for both the 6th and 17th armies’ next operation. The plan here is for the 6th army to break the enemy line just south of Zhitomir, while the 17th army dose likewise south of Vinnitsa.

The 1st panzer group’s 46 and 14 panzer corps will then push through the gap created by the 6th army, though Berdichev then swing south to Tetiev. While the 48 and 3 panzer corps with advance though the hole made by the 17th army, and swing north in a semi-circle to meet the 46 and 14 panzer corps in the Tetiev and Zhasgkov areas.

End

[Klydon]

A couple of things I see:

First, please turn on fort levels so those of us watching can see how well a given sector is dug in, etc. (I love the graphics set you are using by the way, very nice).

Marching a lot of infantry through the swamp is hard on them. Check the fatigue levels of those Second Army units. The other issue is you have no supply lines for them without going through a lot of swamps, so resupply for them isn't very good. I don't know if you are wrecking a bunch of trucks doing supply for them or not, but it is sort of a waste. Typically they get sent in the wake of 2nd panzer group to go south and link up with 6th army or some will send them to go south of 16th army of AGN. Marching through the swamp is slow and it will take longer to get those units to the front where they can have an impact.

A reminder that forts are needed to take fortifications above level 2 in most cases (in or next to a city works as well I think). If he has fort units up by Leningrad, it likely means he plans on digging in up there and having a strong line of fortifications waiting for you when you get there.

[DivePac88]

Thanks there Klydon...

I will have the fort symbols on for the next map, I am using Redmarkas's map, with a combination of Geyerfalck's counters and tactical symbols, along with the regular information panel.

Damn never thought about the fatigue levels in the swamp, as I was marching them along the rail lines. The reason I did this, was I though Mr Burns would defend the river lines as he has else where. But because of your advise; I will move the 2 army corps now in the middle of the swamp, to the north and flank his line there. While moving the 2 southern army corps along the southern face of the swamp, and attaching the SS cavalry brigade to screen the center.

[janh]

I think you're doing well with the schedule. Your are still within or even ahead of the historical pace despite Jim's efforts. He seems to handle the defense well. Even if you would try to advance AGC brute force against the dense carpet of units on or around the landbridge with plenty of deliberate attacks, the progress will be slow -- unless you score the break-thrus you're aiming for. Hmmh, feels like a deja-vu.

The infantry in the Pripyat swamps is indeed not ideal, Klydon is right. This is excellent cavalry terrain, you would better use your lone division left with 2 Panzergruppe to screen the area against raids and just a minimum of supporting infantry. The swamp will fall easier once AGC and AGS pushed past Mogilev/Gomel and Kiev.

I'd not vector II./Panzergruppe 1 to the south of Zhitomir, though. Looks pretty heavily defended, not sure you could get thru fast enough to make a pocket there. How about a more northern pincer, scratching at Olevsk? Or adding this element to the force aimed at Vinnitsa and trying to push fast via Krivoirog to the Djenpr bend, and then heading north? That might take advantage of a great asset in this open terrain compared to the Russians: your units are much faster, you might be able to outrun their retreat... If they get behind schedule once to set up such nice lines as Jim did here, he will struggle to get his counter in place in time.
One thing I also notice is the way you spread your infantry Armies. Except for the Axis minors, I think you can spread some thinner as Soviets aren't such a threat at this stage, while you could concentrate the others more. That might help to make progress in key areas, while the rest is best kept stationary anyway to end up ready for pocketing...

[DivePac88]

Hi there janh...

Thanks for your comments; and I'm going to move the 2nd armie's HQ, and infantry divisions out of the central swamp. Also I have transferred the Heer cavalry division and the SS cavalry brigade to the 2nd army.

I like that idea of yours on the Vinnitsa axis for the 2 northern panzer corps of panzer group one, and if the infantry can punch a good hole there I will use it.

[janh]

ORIGINAL: DivePac88
I like that idea of yours on the Vinnitsa axis for the 2 northern panzer corps of panzer group one, and if the infantry can punch a good hole there I will use it.

You're probably right, my other suggestion taking it past the swamps southern border may well be a dead end. I didn't think of that. Perhaps you could make one last pocket before Kiev, but that doesn't work, the Panzer would be stuck on the northern approaches to Kiev. And north of Kiev I see no way to get them over the river in a reasonable time... I made that mistake once.

Keep them rolling!
Jan

[DivePac88]

The situation for turn 7, the week starting on the 31st July 1941.

Heeresgruppe Nord.

The 50th armee korps took Tallinn this week, routing the 3 defending Russian units back behind their own lines on the Narva River. But I don’t mind not destroying those enemy units, as I wanted Tallinn quickly, and didn’t want them routing to the west.

The Russian’s have now evacuated Pskov as I thought they would, but have still kept in close contact to the north. I was a bit surprised by this, as I thought Stavka would withdraw behind the River Plyussa. Another thing I find a surprise is that there doesn’t seem to be defensive line in place behind the River Luga.

So the plan this week for the 18th Armee, is for the 2 northern armee korps to put pressure on the Narva River line. While the 2 southern armee korps, will simply push north toward the Luga River, on the axis of the crossing at the town of Luga.

Panzergruppe 4 will rest and build-up supplies this week, but overall it’s divisions are still in good condition. I will send the Panzergruppe at Novgorod, after the infantry divisions of the 16th Armee have secured Volot.

Heeresgruppe Zentrum

The 9th Armee managed to penetrate the Russian line west of Polotski, and make a gap wide enough for Panzergruppe 3 to pass through. The original plan had been for the Panzergruppe, had been to clear the west bank of the River Dvina above Vitebsk.

But this plan was modified, and the Panzergruppe instead drove toward Velikie Luki. Which the Panzergruppe or the 9th Armee should capture easily next week. Also if by next week the enemy has not withdrawn from the area north of Vitebsk, the Panzergruppe will attempt to isolate them.

The 4th Armee and Panzergruppe 2 were unable to break through the Russian line south of Mogilev, because of very heavy resistance. The 9th Armee did cross and clear the west Bank of the River Drut, but the Panzergruppe was unable to force a crossing of the River Dnepr.

2nd Armee has now split with 2 armee korps moving up along the northern face of the Swamp, and its 2 other armee korps fighting east along the southern face of the Swamp. While the 1st Kavallerie division and the 8th SS-Kavallerie brigade, will now screen the middle of the swamp (thanks to advice).

Heeresgruppe Süden.

The situation in the south has vastly improved this week, with the creation of an encirclement of Russian forces in the Vinnista area (the Vinnista flytrap). The plan had originally been for the 6th Armee to punch through just south of Zhitamir, but on Janh’s advice I moved the operation further south to just above Vinnista.

The modified plan worked beautifully, and the 6th Armee was able to make a wide and deep penetration of the Russian line. 46 and 14 panzer Korps of Panzergruppe 1 were then able to easily breakout to the east, and linkup with the southern pincer of the Panzergruppe well east of Vinnista.

The original plan in the south also worked well, with the 17th Armee advancing out of the mountains south of Vinnista. Then after some heavy fighting, the 17th Armee also made a wide breech in the Russian line. The 48 and 3 panzer Korps then crossed the southern branch of the River Bug, pushing a few enemy units aside, and advanced to Tetiev.

My thinking is that Stavka will withdraw his forces from the north and south of Vinnista, and not attempt to relieve the pocket from the outside. But that he might be able breakout some of his mobile units from the pocket, if they have enough fuel. But I think his rifle divisions, with maybe 9 or 10 being trapped, will not be able to escape.

Also to the south, the 11th Armee made a deep penetration of the Russian line in the Kodyma area. While the Romanians are advancing east south of Kishinev, to close up on the Russian line along the River Dnestr.

[Klydon]

ORIGINAL: DivePac88


The 50th armee korps took Tallinn this week, routing the 3 defending Russian units back behind their own lines on the Narva River. But I don’t mind not destroying those enemy units, as I wanted Tallinn quickly, and didn’t want them routing to the west.

I am not trying to beat you up on this, but rather help with some game mechanics you may or may not be aware of. Neither of these strategies below are foolproof, but:

First, since Tallinn is a port, any Russians there are considered in supply and will rout rather than surrender. You can bomb the port and knock it out, then send in the troops, but I think Tallinn is a good sized port, so that may not work so hot.

The second way is to leave one of the hexes around Tallinn in Russian hands (IE, don't flip it when you move troops in for the attack). What this will achieve is allow the Russian troops a retreat path. You make your attack and if the Russians simply retreat instead of routing, they will retreat themselves into isolation after you take the port. Next turn, you attack them again and they will surrender. (Note: the Russian units still may rout when you attack, but at least you give yourself a chance to bag them).

Since those units routed, Jim will have their use in a turn or two after they recover and you get to face them again on the approaches to Leningrad.

Being able to "steer" enemy units retreating is something that takes a bit to learn, but it can make a big difference over the long haul.

[DivePac88]

Thanks there Klydon...

I was sort of aware of the attacking routine you have explained, but was a bit nervous about using it. As I really wanted to take Tallinn this week, and I considered 50 armee korps needed 3 full divisions to do so. But that by breaking up 1 division into regiments to make the extra encirclement, would have left insufficient force to storm Tallinn. There is a 4th division belonging to 50 armee korps, but it would have been next week until it was up in position to assault or encircle Tallinn.

Another reason was that I only get one shot at the assault on Tallinn, as I have a rule of not retrying a save. Because I think that it is gamey, and I play WitE the way I have always played WitP-AE, where it is against the rules to retry a turn. Also my calculations had shown me that 2 divisions and 1 regiment would have been a close-run thing, whereas 3 full divisions would have a good probability of pulling it off.

[sillyflower]

good pocket @ Vinnitsa. Can't see anything getting out. just hope he tries a relief as that should end only in another pocket

[Seminole]

as I have a rule of not retrying a save. Because I think that it is gamey, and I play WitE the way I have always played WitP-AE, where it is against the rules to retry a turn.

Nobody should be retrying turns, or each week turns into an example of the very best (or worst depending on which side you're on) of what could have happened.

I run my turns in 'phases' and save in between because I've had a PBEM go to save screen and no buttons appeared at the bottom for me to create a new save (I've seen this happen more than once, especially if the game is left on overnight or a really long time). Only choice was to do the turn again and try to remember what I had done, and with over 700 on map units, air groups, refit status, etc. that is a lot of time to just lose.
Now when I start a turn I read the weekly report, review enemy attacks and look over my options. Send AGs to reserve and assign as necessary, save, make my moves necessary for combat, save, then my 'strategic moves' of shifting reserves or re-deploying defenses, save, then check my refit status and production status before hitting end turn.

[DivePac88]

The situation for turn 8, the week starting on the 7th August 1941.

Sorry Guys but I haven't got time for a progress report, as I spent too much time on the map. But I think the map gives you a pretty good picture, and I'll make up for it next week. [;)]

[DivePac88]

Just a note on my current strategy, which is really the result or answer to Jim’s (Stavka) early successful forward defence strategy. Stavka’s early defensive and spoiling attack tactics were causing me much grief, and in some areas actually stalling my advance.

While my infantry was still tied down with the early pockets, or in the process of catching up with my Panzergruppen. He had basically stalled my panzers, by launching spoiling attacks to cut the LOC. While also marking my mobile divisions closely to inhibit my supply operations, especially refuelling.

By the 4th week of the campaign I was becoming very concerned with my advance, and was taking some flank (Justified) in my AAR about my Generalship. So I had a good long think about my strategy (and a couple of sleepless nights), and came up with the operational doctrine that I am using now.

I knew that I had to somehow attack his strategy, which was basically a slow retreat, with small opportune spoiling attacks. First I decided that I had to rest and fully resupply my panzer divisions, and to do this unimpeded I had to withdraw them behind the mainline.

Then I had to pick were to attack his line, and then the axis for my panzer’s to exploit. So I worked out that his defences were centred on the main rail lines, which means his main communication centres. Then that his frontline, and mobile covering forces thin-out has his front moves away from these Towns and Cities.

So basically that is where I’m hitting him now, and as you can see by my to resent pockets it is working. But there is a major drawback to my current strategy, and that is that it slows my operational tempo, with the week or two off for resupply. Also I know that my opponent will soon work-out what I’m up to, and I will again have to modify my strategy.

[sillyflower]

Your new approach seems to be working. If you don't kill enough Russians and destroy units, you can't advance well. Destroy the red army and you can the go anywhere.

[DivePac88]

Thanks sillyflower... but I also think I probably getting some good rolls.

Also it won't take a player of Jim's caliber long to find a way to counter my current strategy.

But the main thing is I'm having fun, even when I have the bad turns.

[Durgard]

Hi
Very nice AAR ! [:)]

What kind of mod do you use to have so beautifull counters???? [&o]
I didn't spot that stuff in any forum... [:(]

Thx for your great work !