Ships that Never Sailed

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Dili


I disagree, if they wanted peacefully resist Hitler than the most effective resistance to Hitler was in Germany, instead they made Hitler a winner to German eyes and thinking they were avoiding a War just they got a World War... and don't even get me started into "drôle de guerre" the French let Hitler and Nazis play a Napoleon textbook piecemeal on Poles and them.

Glass houses......

[janh]

Good thoughts, really. It is a scary realization, but humanity truly has no peaceful history. It rather cycles thru phases, and these change in length. As long as the old reasons surface, or maybe new ones in the future as well (water, too little or too much...), this probably will continue in some way.

What do you think of the argument that even if Hitler had settled in an unconvenient peace with Stalin (and perhaps reaching a more satisfactory agreement about the Swedish iron ore imports from Gällivare and Kiruna), Stalin either already planned an offensive war at a later stage, or that even if not so, a clash of ideologies would have been inevitable?

I read one discussion on that in book a few years back, unfortunately I forgot the title. The author claimed the former, and supported it even by contemporary Russian communications and other records. However, as always these documents required interpretation, putting into (and finding) the context etc., so the conclusion felt a little... stretched, though not incredible.

[Nikademus]

I think both Stalin and Hitler sensed that in the more 'distant' future there would be a fight. Hitler, as mentioned pretty much blueprinted his intentions in the 1920's.....For Germany to become a major power, there was only one country that had the resources and land to allow German expansion.

On Stalin's part, the history of the entire USSR from 1917 into and through the immediate post-Stalinist era was one of fear and paranoia that the West was plotting it's demise. Hence the need/desire for "Buffer states." Stalin saw threats in EVERY external power. Hitler's Germany was a no brainer on that score. Where Stalin's judgement seemed to fail him was in the timing. However the book i mentioned also talks about Stalin's long view as well and he was at times shrewdly playing both sides against each other (The west and Germany) trying to get the best deal for Russian security. He eventually settled on the Nazi alliance because the West shied away from suggestive diplomatic maneuvers re: a West-USSR alliance for mutual defense.

On the issue of a Soviet pre-emptive strike against Germany. It remains a highly debated and controversial topic.

[Empire101]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Hitler was anything but mad when the war started and during the early stages. Because of the complexity of the conflict and of that of Hitler's Third Reich, inevitably one has to resort to simplifying what are seen as major developments during the war and of decisions that were made. Hindsight does the rest. Digging for the underlying truths is tough and truth be told requires a lifetime of study. No one decision or small number of decisions caused this or that to happen.....but was part of a steady progression of events, driven by factors and variables that rarely see light of day. Its too complex really.

One of the more interesting books I've read in the last couple of years was "Ostkrieg: Hitler's war of Extermination in the East" Its a good but challenging book to read. Challenging for the subject matter (if i were to distill it.....its basically a story of humanity at it's worst.....Have Not's willing to go to the most ruthless extremes to acquire what is felt to be their rightful share of the pie. ) Challenging for the complexity of it all.

The ultimate horror of the situation is realizing that whatever one wishes to label them......"Nazis....Fanatics.....Nutjobs, they were Human Beings. Its a story of Humanity at it's most ruthless. Even scarier is the brutal logic of it. Scary read. But a necessary one if one wants to try to understand the hows and whys.

To pull out but one example of drilling down, History forums often repeat over and over and over how stupid Hitler was to invade Russia. Had only he not done it.....etc etc. I used to be one of them in my younger days. After reading this (and other books as well) I began to see it in a different light. The Third Reich was not a self sufficient country, even after it's victory over France. If anything the German economy was in a more precarious state with a population becoming increasingly disquieted when the promised riches of a short war started to tarnish. Defeating France eliminated a hated enemy of the past but France itself offered little economic benefit for the Reich, the author in fact argues the opposite, it increased the burden on the Reich's economy. From Hitler's viewpoint, he saw a worldwide conspiracy of Jewish hostility and Bolshevik menace. He was especially fearful of the American administration and of course had no delusions about Stalin.

Initially there was indecision on what to do next. All in his inner circle though realized that time was against the Reich, Russia or no Russia, the US was re-arming, gearing up for a potential conflict. Hitler was convinced the US would be an enemy (he was right) and there were horror stories of a Germany surrounded by enemies now strong enough to threaten it. (re: a rearmed and rebuilt Red Army on the East.....a Bolstered England with the US in the West etc) There were fears of 1940 Germany, blockaded, might suffer the defeatism that infected the population in 1917-18. Sure they were getting help from Stalin, but what was Stalin getting out of the deal? What if he decided to blackmail Germany with that economic aid to force concessions?

Hitler was looking at the big picture too. He wanted the Reich to be a World Power. Sitting around and doing nothing with a non-self sufficient economy and inadequate space to expand the German people so that the country could become a World Power was self defeating. The Third Reich could not survive long under such circumstances. If the people became restless, they might be toppled, or at least that was the fear.

I could go on and on, but the point was that ultimately the Third Reich was compelled to invade Russia for geopolitical reasons as well as basic economic and resource related reasons. It was not simply "Hitler being stupid and invading Russia creating a 2nd Front"

Another example is the treatment of what are seen as possible allies. Yes in hindsight it seems daft that the Germans didn't tap into the anti-Soviet resentment within the USSR. Doing so however literally went against the grain of Third Reich goals and objectives. Hitler had laid it all out in his book after all. One can argue that it might have been handled differently but ultimately the T. Reich and Stalinist Russia had to fight because of the geopolitical goals. Germany was far from prepared to do so when it did, but by the same token, Stalinist Russia would, like the US only get stronger the longer Germany waited.

Excellent post Nikademus.

Whenever I read the post's that 'Hitler was mad to invade Russia', I often think how comfortable the armchair of hindsight is.
What people tend to overlook is that Hitler and his Generals came from a generation that had bought Russia to its knees in WWI, and they knew they could do do it again, only this time with the added benefits of Blitzkreig.

Unfortunately for them, the Czars Army of 1914 was a very different animal under the Soviets, and the government of 1914 was in no way comparable to Uncle Joe and his crony's, a government every bit as ruthless, cruel and idealogically driven as The Third Reich.

[Dili]

for geopolitical reasons as well as basic economic

When people have mercantilistic/imperialist viewpoints about economy then obviously the utmost permanent safety is to conquer almost every corner of the planet where there are some resource, most don't go to such extremes, but if we add the paranoid Hitler insecurity we have the necessary soup . Instead the Swiss live in peace with almost no delusions of grandeur.

Yes Hitler was mad to invade Soviet Union.

[Empire101]

ORIGINAL: Dili

Instead the Swiss live in peace with almost no delusions of grandeur.

That is true.
But apart from living high on the hog on the interest generated by the Swiss Banking sector at the expense of the rest of Europe, what else has Switzerland contributed to Western technology, philosophy, innovation or culture in the last one thousand years?

Ahh yes.....the cuckoo clock.

ORIGINAL: Dili

Yes Hitler was mad to invade Soviet Union.

This could just keep on going round in circles........[8|]

[wadail]

ORIGINAL: Empire101


That is true.
But apart from living high on the hog on the interest generated by the Swiss Banking sector at the expense of the rest of Europe, what else has Switzerland contributed to Western technology, philosophy, innovation or culture in the last one thousand years?

Ahh yes.....the cuckoo clock.

Don't forget using a crossbow to plink apples off the heads of annoying children..

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Empire101


This could just keep on going round in circles........[8|]

Mussolini invading Greece was mad! Unfortunately for him, the Greeks got madder. [:'(]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Empire101

ORIGINAL: Dili

Instead the Swiss live in peace with almost no delusions of grandeur.

That is true.
But apart from living high on the hog on the interest generated by the Swiss Banking sector at the expense of the rest of Europe, what else has Switzerland contributed to Western technology, philosophy, innovation or culture in the last one thousand years?

Ahh yes.....the cuckoo clock.

Warspite1

...and Lindt choclick ......yummy [:)]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Dili

for geopolitical reasons as well as basic economic

When people have mercantilistic/imperialist viewpoints about economy then obviously the utmost permanent safety is to conquer almost every corner of the planet where there are some resource, most don't go to such extremes, but if we add the paranoid Hitler insecurity we have the necessary soup . Instead the Swiss live in peace with almost no delusions of grandeur.

Yes Hitler was mad to invade Soviet Union.

warspite1

Yes he was mad to invade.... But that doesn't mean he was mad.....

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Dili

I think that is more than a little unfair to say the least. France and Britain were democracies, their leaders desperate to avoid a repeat of the carnage of WWI. Its easy to criticise with hindsight, but against that background they tried their utmost to contain Hitler - not realising until too late that his demands could never be satisfied. Yes, the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia was a sorry episode, but again was done in a last bid to avoid a wider war.

I disagree, if they wanted peacefully resist Hitler than the most effective resistance to Hitler was in Germany, instead they made Hitler a winner to German eyes and thinking they were avoiding a War just they got a World War... and don't even get me started into "drôle de guerre" the French let Hitler and Nazis play a Napoleon textbook piecemeal on Poles and them.

Warspite1

What does that mean - particularly the opening sentence??

[warspite1]

Ostkrieg is an excellent book. [&o]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: Empire101

This could just keep on going round in circles........[8|]

Mussolini invading Greece was mad!

Warspite1

Why? Just because it was winter, the terrain was mountainous (perfect for defenders), the ports in Albania couldn't cope with the volume of supplies needed, the Italian divisions were under strength and I'll-equipped and Mussolini invaded in a fit of pique because Hitler wouldn't let him into his secret plans.. Just because of that you think it was mad? [;)]

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Dili

I think that is more than a little unfair to say the least. France and Britain were democracies, their leaders desperate to avoid a repeat of the carnage of WWI. Its easy to criticise with hindsight, but against that background they tried their utmost to contain Hitler - not realising until too late that his demands could never be satisfied. Yes, the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia was a sorry episode, but again was done in a last bid to avoid a wider war.

I disagree, if they wanted peacefully resist Hitler than the most effective resistance to Hitler was in Germany, instead they made Hitler a winner to German eyes and thinking they were avoiding a War just they got a World War... and don't even get me started into "drôle de guerre" the French let Hitler and Nazis play a Napoleon textbook piecemeal on Poles and them.

Warspite1

What does that mean - particularly the opening sentence??

And what was Italy doing in the 1930's while England and France were busy acting Disgracefully?

[Dili]

"But apart from living high on the hog on the interest generated by the Swiss Banking sector at the expense of the rest of Europe, what else has Switzerland contributed to Western technology, philosophy, innovation or culture in the last one thousand years?"

The cookoo clock is German...

Are we comparing small country and are you saying that people like Hitler contributed something and or are a necessary cost? The world advanced without Hitler and for that matters Stalin and others of their ilk, instead the World GDP destroyed plus oportunity cost for world GDP not augmented is even worse, also add the human know-how destroyed if we want to just talk about economy and science.

If Swiss banks are good it is not at expense of anyone, people are or should be free to put their money where they want, specially free from typical european governements depredations of boom and bust, inflation, debt.

What does that mean - particularly the opening sentence??

It means not giving political victories to Hitler. Giving political victories to him made possible that Nazis could get unity of propose from most population.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Dili

What does that mean - particularly the opening sentence??

It means not giving political victories to Hitler. Giving political victories to him made possible that Nazis could get unity of propose from most population.

warspite1

But that is the whole point. The western democracies "gave" Hitler those political victories as an unintended consequence of trying to avoid the carnage of WWI happening all over again. Hindsight is wonderful.....Chamberlain, Daladier et al did not possess it in the 1930's.

[Empire101]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Dili

What does that mean - particularly the opening sentence??

It means not giving political victories to Hitler. Giving political victories to him made possible that Nazis could get unity of propose from most population.

warspite1

But that is the whole point. The western democracies "gave" Hitler those political victories as an unintended consequence of trying to avoid the carnage of WWI happening all over again. Hindsight is wonderful.....Chamberlain, Daladier et al did not possess it in the 1930's.

+1
....its useless to argue Warspite....it just keeps going round in circles.....

[Empire101]

ORIGINAL: Dili

"But apart from living high on the hog on the interest generated by the Swiss Banking sector at the expense of the rest of Europe, what else has Switzerland contributed to Western technology, philosophy, innovation or culture in the last one thousand years?"

The cookoo clock is German...

Thankyou for the correction.... so they have contributed nothing then.

ORIGINAL: Dili

If Swiss banks are good it is not at expense of anyone, people are or should be free to put their money where they want, specially free from typical european governements depredations of boom and bust, inflation, debt.

Glad we cleared that up as well.

The banks have absolutely nothing to do with the current economic crisis in the West.
I will immediately telephone the Bank of England, and Switzerland, to reassure those greedy, smug, and legally untouchable bankers that international capitalism is NOT responsible for enslaving half of Europe, and for the other half who have lost their jobs.

Now who was it who warned us all about international capitalism in the past?

I wonder......

[Grfin Zeppelin]

Oh what have I done...... o.O sorry for derailing this thread o.O

[Empire101]

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

Oh what have I done...... o.O sorry for derailing this thread o.O

Grafin, it certainly was'nt you that derailed this thread[;)]