Ships that Never Sailed

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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Shark7
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RE: Ships that Never Sailed

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: msieving1

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

The Dutch 1047 class would have been interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_1047_battlecruiser

They would have been roughly equivalent to the Schranhorst class.

In terms of AA defense they also would have been among the best protected ships in Dec 1941. 12x140mm dp guns, 14x40mm and 8x20mm cannons.
And at 28,000 tons they would of had room to 'grow' as AA ships.

I have seriously considered adding them to my custom Ironman scenario. I may do it if I can find someone to do the artwork.

Well, they weren't planned to be completed before 1944, at the earliest.

It might be interesting to consider the Dutch battleship plans of World War I and how they could have been updated had they been built. The designs considered were between 26,000 and 28,000 tons, armed with 8 X 14" guns, with a speed of 22 kt. Except in speed, they would have been comparable to the IJN Kongo class.

Given that they were intended to be deployed to the DEI, not the Atlantic may give you the reason they so closely resembled the Kongo class.
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RE: Ships that Never Sailed

Post by Chernobyl »

I added the Kii, Owari, Tosa, and aircraft carrier Amagi to my game for fun. It was tough verifying the exact direction of the guns (center, left or right, and how many turrets?) Also, I think the Tosa was originally specified to carry torpedo tubes. Would these have been removed prior to 1941, or was it not unheard of in Japanese doctrine to equip capital ships with torpedos?
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RE: Ships that Never Sailed

Post by Fallschirmjager »

ORIGINAL: Liebestod

I added the Kii, Owari, Tosa, and aircraft carrier Amagi to my game for fun. It was tough verifying the exact direction of the guns (center, left or right, and how many turrets?) Also, I think the Tosa was originally specified to carry torpedo tubes. Would these have been removed prior to 1941, or was it not unheard of in Japanese doctrine to equip capital ships with torpedos?


Torpedoes were essential to the Japanese doctrine of 'decisive battle' which they wanted to take place at night. There is no way they would have removed the torpedo tubes.
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RE: Ships that Never Sailed

Post by Nikademus »

There were two schools of thought post WWI within the IJN when it came to Capital ships and torpedoes. One favored them as an additional weapon as had been the case with most nation's views prior to WWI (most BB's carried underwater tubes), however the other school recognized the danger of carrying such additional ordinance in relation to the opportunity to use them. WWI showed that TT's on capital ships were a dubious prospect at best. None managed to score a hit against another BB with them. A compromise was reached. Cruisers, which were seen as a vital component of the Night Battle Force retained them but battleships dispensed with them given the lessons of WWI.

I doubt the tubes would have been kept or retained for the Tosa class but it is possible. It depends on the fate of the Kongo class, which after their promotion from "Battlecruiser" to "Battleship" were organizationally detached from the primary Battlefleet and were to have participated in the night phase of the DB. Their speed also allowed them the flexibility to serve as carrier escorts. However their role in any NB would have been distant gunfire support while the smaller cruisers and DD force dashed in to launch torpedoes so torpedoes were not needed for them. The primary Battleline force was to finish the DB during daylight with a classic gun battle
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RE: Ships that Never Sailed

Post by Nikademus »

of course the fun part about such mussings is that any topic involving what if ships from the post WWI period has to take into account the far reaching effect of the Naval limitation treaties. Because of the treaty, the various nations involved found themselves with modern but required to be discarded hulls. Many were scrapped. However a few hulls that were in an advanced state of completion were able to serve as test platforms. IIRC the Tosa herself was tested to destruction by the Japanese. The test was revealing in many ways and influenced future IJN BB design. The test also clearly showed the danger of carrying torpedoes with very large explosive warheads aboard a battleship/battlecruiser that takes many large caliber hits. For the Japanese it was highly influential in the decision to dispense with the weapon for these Capital ships. As I mentioned, their job was to take out/finish off the their opposites in a classic daylight surface battle.
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RE: Ships that Never Sailed

Post by wadail »

ORIGINAL: warspite1


The idea that the German general staff was a paragon of virtue and that all the German mistakes were down to Hitler's meddling is simply nonsense.


Not at all. First and foremost, without Hitler there probably would have been no war. That said, he made some crucially bad decisions at key points in time that doomed Germany to failure. The list is a very long one.
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RE: Ships that Never Sailed

Post by Grfin Zeppelin »

ORIGINAL: wadail

ORIGINAL: warspite1


The idea that the German general staff was a paragon of virtue and that all the German mistakes were down to Hitler's meddling is simply nonsense.


Not at all. First and foremost, without Hitler there probably would have been no war. We dont know that. War was in the air however with or without Hitler.
That said, he made some crucially bad decisions at key points in time that doomed Germany to failure. The list is a very long one. He also made some crucially good decisions (Ah I dont mean ideology ok ?)

Blaming Hitler for everything was very popular after the war because he was dead and the obvious mad man.

Dont get me wrong he was a nutjob indeed but I cant stand this ohgermanywouldhaveeasilywonifhitlerwouldnothavebeensostupid talk.


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RE: Ships that Never Sailed

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin
ohgermanywouldhaveeasilywonifhitlerwouldnothavebeensostupid

Grafin, you're German, right? Isn't this an actual (and typical) German word? [;)]
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RE: Ships that Never Sailed

Post by Grfin Zeppelin »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin
ohgermanywouldhaveeasilywonifhitlerwouldnothavebeensostupid

Grafin, you're German, right? Isn't this an actual (and typical) German word? [;)]

Dunno, after a second thought it looks Welsh to me.

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RE: Ships that Never Sailed

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin
ohgermanywouldhaveeasilywonifhitlerwouldnothavebeensostupid

Grafin, you're German, right? Isn't this an actual (and typical) German word? [;)]

Dunno, after a second thought it looks Welsh to me.
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RE: Ships that Never Sailed

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy




Grafin, you're German, right? Isn't this an actual (and typical) German word? [;)]

Dunno, after a second thought it looks Welsh to me.
Warspite1

You got there first!!!!
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ohgermanywouldhaveeasilywonifhitlerwouldnothavebeensostupid is a small town just outside Cardiff.
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RE: Ships that Never Sailed

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin




Dunno, after a second thought it looks Welsh to me.
Warspite1

You got there first!!!!
warspite1

ohgermanywouldhaveeasilywonifhitlerwouldnothavebeensostupid is a small town just outside Cardiff.
warspite1

She also had the longest name in the Royal Navy. The Town-class cruiser
HMS ohgermanywouldhaveeasilywonifhitlerwouldnothavebeensostupid.
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RE: Ships that Never Sailed

Post by Grfin Zeppelin »

ORIGINAL: warspite1


She also had the longest name in the Royal Navy. The Town-class cruiser
HMS ohgermanywouldhaveeasilywonifhitlerwouldnothavebeensostupid.

lmao [&o]

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RE: Ships that Never Sailed

Post by wadail »

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin
ORIGINAL: wadail

ORIGINAL: warspite1


The idea that the German general staff was a paragon of virtue and that all the German mistakes were down to Hitler's meddling is simply nonsense.


Not at all. First and foremost, without Hitler there probably would have been no war. We dont know that. War was in the air however with or without Hitler.
That said, he made some crucially bad decisions at key points in time that doomed Germany to failure. The list is a very long one. He also made some crucially good decisions (Ah I dont mean ideology ok ?)

Blaming Hitler for everything was very popular after the war because he was dead and the obvious mad man.

Dont get me wrong he was a nutjob indeed but I cant stand this ohgermanywouldhaveeasilywonifhitlerwouldnothavebeensostupid talk.


Now, to be fair I never said ohgermanywouldhaveeasilywonifhitlerwouldnothavebeensostupid, I said Germany would have lasted 3-4 years longer than it did. Maybe after Stalingrad, definitely after Kursk, the best thing Germany was going to get out of WWII was a negotiated surrender with terms. It simply did not have the manpower or industry to win a long war fought at that level of intensity against so many belligerents.

Some outstanding decisions of Hitler's that helped expedite their collapse were:

Invading Poland and starting the war before his war plan was ready to implement

Declaring war on the US after Pearl Harbor - It is no sure thing Roosevelt would have gotten a declaration of war against Germany and a commitment from Congress for a 2-front War in the days after Pearl Harbor. It might not have mattered, but the presence of the units sent to defend the boot of Italy may well have made the difference at Kursk

Aryan supremacy - yes, I get that was what the Nazis were about, but he ended up killing about 12 million people who might well have fought for him if allowed

Unleashing the Gestapo and SS on Ukraine and the Soviets, turning the Eastern front into their version of the no-quarter combat we experienced in the Pacific, only against a country with several times their population. He killed so many people that the rest of the world was highly unlikely to give Germany a negotiated peace, which was one of his greater errors, IMHO. His ideology put Germany in a corner from which it had to "whip all comers" or eventually be destroyed

Allowing Goering to "smash them on the beach" at Dunkirk.. well, listening to Goering at all for that matter

Refusing to allow his general staff to retreat when appropriate

Using meth (well, back then who knew?)

Allowing his focus to shift from a front when things were not going to suite him (Battle of Britain, Leaving Rommel hanging)

His penchant for having "fits" so severe that his general staff was afraid to present him with accurate information

His interference in the ME-262 program

His refusal to allow the development of an automatic assault rifle (The StG 44 was developed behind his back and against his wishes and when one is fighting hordes of Soviets, every bullet helps)

Invading Russia before the Western Front was secure (well, invading Russia at all, but I digress)

Not accepting a peace offer from Stalin that ceded Ukraine (by post-Cold War document accounts)

Bombing British cities instead of continuing the pressure on the RAF

Pais de Calais

Failure to develop a long-range bomber

Not releasing armor against Normandy

Absolute faith in the enigma machine (he had help from his Generals on this one)

His squandering of resources on "wunder weapons"

Not invading Turkey to get at the Crimean oil and Southern Soviet flank

Stripping the Eastern front for the "Battle of the Bulge"

It is a long list and it's a far longer list than the things he did right, with regard to military operations.
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RE: Ships that Never Sailed

Post by tocaff »

Not to mention the resources used in extermination of the Jews, Gypsies, Slavs and other "subhumans." But it was a war lost from the minute he took on the USSR and then to add to the insanity the USA.
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RE: Ships that Never Sailed

Post by wdolson »

ORIGINAL: wadail
Now, to be fair I never said ohgermanywouldhaveeasilywonifhitlerwouldnothavebeensostupid, I said Germany would have lasted 3-4 years longer than it did. Maybe after Stalingrad, definitely after Kursk, the best thing Germany was going to get out of WWII was a negotiated surrender with terms. It simply did not have the manpower or industry to win a long war fought at that level of intensity against so many belligerents.

I read that Churchill said upon hearing of Pearl Harbor, "well, it appears we have won after all".
Some outstanding decisions of Hitler's that helped expedite their collapse were:

Invading Poland and starting the war before his war plan was ready to implement

He also forced industry to keep producing consumer goods until 1942 because he didn't want the population to turn against him due to deprivation. Great Britain went on a total war footing from day 1 which meant by the Battle of Britain they were producing more single engine fighters per month than Germany was.
Declaring war on the US after Pearl Harbor - It is no sure thing Roosevelt would have gotten a declaration of war against Germany and a commitment from Congress for a 2-front War in the days after Pearl Harbor. It might not have mattered, but the presence of the units sent to defend the boot of Italy may well have made the difference at Kursk

Not to mention the resources they were pouring into the west wall. The UK did not pose a serious invasion threat to Western Europe until the US got into the war.

Though I'm not sure the Germans could have won at Kursk no matter what they threw into the cauldron. The Soviets had the time and resources to build probably one the best examples of defense in depth in history.
Aryan supremacy - yes, I get that was what the Nazis were about, but he ended up killing about 12 million people who might well have fought for him if allowed

Fanatic idealism will get people worked up and running to your cause when you're winning, but it will turn against you when things go badly. The Nazis aren't the only example of this in history, though they probably are the most dramatic.
Unleashing the Gestapo and SS on Ukraine and the Soviets, turning the Eastern front into their version of the no-quarter combat we experienced in the Pacific, only against a country with several times their population. He killed so many people that the rest of the world was highly unlikely to give Germany a negotiated peace, which was one of his greater errors, IMHO. His ideology put Germany in a corner from which it had to "whip all comers" or eventually be destroyed

The Ukrainians were ready to join the German cause en masse in 1941. If Hitler had used them instead of killing them and burning their villages, he could have fielded several divisions of Ukrainian troops by December 1941, which probably would have made the difference at the gates of Moscow.

Ironically a lot of Ukrainians were actually the Aryans he went on about. "White" Russians are descendants of Swedish vikings who sailed the Russian river system during their peak on the world scene. Many of them are genetically closer to Hitler's ideal Aryan than most Germans are.
Allowing Goering to "smash them on the beach" at Dunkirk.. well, listening to Goering at all for that matter

Refusing to allow his general staff to retreat when appropriate

Using meth (well, back then who knew?)

Allowing his focus to shift from a front when things were not going to suite him (Battle of Britain, Leaving Rommel hanging)

His penchant for having "fits" so severe that his general staff was afraid to present him with accurate information

He valued loyalty over advisers who would tell him the truth. A leader needs accurate information to make good decisions and a leader in a bubble is going to make bad decisions. Hitler is not unique in that respect.
His interference in the ME-262 program

This alone would not have been a war winner, but with Me-262 fighters available in mid-44 in large numbers would have made the bombing campaign in Germany very expensive. The critical problem with the jets in the end was they were very tough to fly and it took very experienced pilots to fly them. Putting masses of poorly trained pilots in Me-262s would have just resulted in staggering accident rates. The operational losses for Me-262s was already extremely high.
His refusal to allow the development of an automatic assault rifle (The StG 44 was developed behind his back and against his wishes and when one is fighting hordes of Soviets, every bullet helps)

Invading Russia before the Western Front was secure (well, invading Russia at all, but I digress)

Not accepting a peace offer from Stalin that ceded Ukraine (by post-Cold War document accounts)

Bombing British cities instead of continuing the pressure on the RAF

Pais de Calais

Failure to develop a long-range bomber

Not sure this one was uber critical, though a fleet of long range maritime bombers would have made life difficult for the British. Strategic bombers would not have done them much good. The two biggest industrial areas for the Allies were deep in Allied territory (the US and the USSR centers built in late 1941). It would have taken a strategic bomber on the order of a B-36 to reach the US and that would have just stretched Germany's resources even further.
Not releasing armor against Normandy

Absolute faith in the enigma machine (he had help from his Generals on this one)

His squandering of resources on "wunder weapons"

Not invading Turkey to get at the Crimean oil and Southern Soviet flank

Stripping the Eastern front for the "Battle of the Bulge"

It is a long list and it's a far longer list than the things he did right, with regard to military operations.
.

I'm not sure invading Turkey would have been a good idea. He would have ended up with another flank to defend in the Middle East. The Allies could have put a force in Syria and gone north. Once they linked up with the Russians in the Crimea, it would have given the USSR a new supply route with the west.

The critical resource Germany lacked was oil. Central Europe is very poor in oil. Romania was the only place that had any of significance. (Ironically all three axis countries were very shy in oil.) The key of the treaty between the USSR and Germany in 1939 was a deal for the USSR to sell Germany a large quantity of oil. When Germany invaded the USSR in 1941, that source shut off and it was a race to capture the oil centers before the stockpiles ran out. That was the reason the thrust in the 1942 offensive was in the South. Germany needed to capture the oil.

There were a few other resources Germany lacked, like they didn't have access to large tungsten deposits, which affected the quality of AP shells, but oil was the critical large volume commodity they needed.

In a sense, WW II was the world's first war over access to oil.

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RE: Ships that Never Sailed

Post by Empire101 »

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin
ORIGINAL: wadail

ORIGINAL: warspite1


The idea that the German general staff was a paragon of virtue and that all the German mistakes were down to Hitler's meddling is simply nonsense.



Not at all. First and foremost, without Hitler there probably would have been no war. We dont know that. War was in the air however with or without Hitler.
That said, he made some crucially bad decisions at key points in time that doomed Germany to failure. The list is a very long one. He also made some crucially good decisions (Ah I dont mean ideology ok ?)

Blaming Hitler for everything was very popular after the war because he was dead and the obvious mad man.

Dont get me wrong he was a nutjob indeed but I cant stand this ohgermanywouldhaveeasilywonifhitlerwouldnothavebeensostupid talk.


Good post wdolson!! +1


It is a foolish and complacent to dismiss Hitler as a nutjob or madman.

He ( and his inner circle of pirates ), forged a fearsome political and idealogical machine that came close to subjugating the world by force of arms.
To lay all the mistakes of the The Third Reich at his door is a dangerous train of thought. He made many mistakes, but his mistakes have been put under the microscope of history, while many others have not been subjected to such miniscule debate and analysis.

To quote Hugh Trevor-Roper, in his analysis of Hitler's mind, in Hitlers Table Talk 1941-1944:-

....'The experience of the Kampfzeit, the wider range of activity both before and after the Machtergreifung of January 1933, must have added illustrative detail to his mind; contact with the clear organising intelligence of Dr. Goebbels no doubt sharpened its outlines and perhaps supplied a more intellectual basis to his social thinking; the mere practice of these soliloquies must have also supplied many missing links and greased, as it were, the workings of his ideas; but substantially, in its basic philosophy and its ultimate aims, the mind remained constant, imposing in its granitic harshness and yet infinitely squalid in its miscellaneous cumber - like some huge barbarian monolith, the expression of giant strength and savage genius, surrounded by a festering heap of refuse - old tins and dead vermin, ashes and eggshells and ordure - the intellectual detritus of centuries.

Every glimpse that we have of it in those years - in Mein Kampf in 1924, in Rauschnings versions of the Table-Talk of 1941-44 - shows its consistency.
Clearest of all, by reason of its range, and the triumphant circumstances of its delivery, is this Table-Talk: the self-revelation of the most formidable from among the 'terrible simplifiers' of history, the most systematic, the most historical, the most philosophical, and yet the coarsest, cruellest, least magnanimous conqueror the world has ever known



Hitler was not 'mad'.
To paraphrase Lady Caroline Lamb, [font="Arial"]..."He was clever, bad and dangerous to know."[/font]

I think we have strayed way off topic......[:(]
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RE: Ships that Never Sailed

Post by janh »

ORIGINAL: wdolson
I read that Churchill said upon hearing of Pearl Harbor, "well, it appears we have won after all".

Got to love Churchill's quotes. He's one of my favorites -- a very sharp mind, and sarcastic as well. They are definitely a joy to read, and tough on your face muscles.
ORIGINAL: wdolson
Though I'm not sure the Germans could have won at Kursk no matter what they threw into the cauldron. The Soviets had the time and resources to build probably one the best examples of defense in depth in history.

There is debate in the many book and works on this topic, both by historians as well as military experts. Yet there seems one consensus: Even if the germans would successfully have pinched of the Kursk balcony and made some 200-400k captives/casualties in that progress, it would only have delayed things but not changed the inevitable course. It probably would have been a mere tactical, local victory. The northern Red Army flank was poised to strike anyway, and likely to run into a vacuum of German reserves if they had still been bound by digesting the pocket. Not to mention the toll of continued attacks on the Germans. A Phyrric victory.
ORIGINAL: wdolson
Fanatic idealism was...

always proven to be foolish (besides baseless) by history. But fortunately helped in this case to unite the Allies and focus on Germany first. Who knows what the hell my have happened if Japan hadn't done Pearl, and Europe would have been no war of ideologies, but "just" land, oil and economy. I believe US would still have intervened, but likely later and things might have lead to a-bombs in Europe...
ORIGINAL: wdolson
His interference in the ME-262 program.
His refusal to allow the development of an automatic assault rifle ...

Not sure this one was uber critical, though a fleet of long range maritime bombers would have made life difficult for the British. Strategic bombers would not have done them much good. The two biggest industrial areas for the Allies were deep in Allied territory (the US and the USSR centers built in late 1941). It would have taken a strategic bomber on the order of a B-36 to reach the US and that would have just stretched Germany's resources even further.

I agree with Bill, neither more 262s, modern tanks, more ARs, any "America Bomber", more of the "guided bombs", the finally developed, guided AA missiles, or maybe the class XXI "first true" subs would have made a difference. None could have come early enough to impact the war up until late 41/mid-42, when things were still less clearly pointing to Allied victory. Germany hardly had the potential to mass-produce them, and as Bill said, was also extremely reluctant and slow to transit to a fully focused war economy. Even if they had decided on a large scale program of a real America bomber, which sounds to me a like a counterpiece of Manhattan, it would have strained the German economy to the limits, or perhaps beyond. Aside that for some of these things requirements existed, like trained pilots, and suitable airfields, that Germany could hardly fulfill in numbers, or that would have made these new toys perhaps easily "targetable" and neuter them (like huge bombers).

Just having new toys doesn't mean the Allies would have sat tight and received them with cheers. Those arguments often stop a thought too early. Plus, I think it is probably right to say that at least the US still fought the war with more than one hand on its back. They still had a huge potential to react to any German or Japanese technological "wonder", and as history taught, they were quick and thorough in that.
Not releasing armor against Normandy

Absolute faith in the enigma machine (he had help from his Generals on this one)

Not invading Turkey to get at the Crimean oil and Southern Soviet flank

Stripping the Eastern front for the "Battle of the Bulge"

It is a long list and it's a far longer list than the things he did right, with regard to military operations.

Well, the issue about holding back at Dunkirk or the matter of Normandy are big and exciting questions, the what-ifs of history. Just like knowing what had happened had Lee bagged McClellan in the Seven Days. Or much else. But such questions are never easily answered, nor unquestionably. And it is consequently hard to attribute blame uniquely.
Often these were gambles, and like Dunkirk had not only a military relevance. For example imagine if Wehrmacht, exhausted and in some disorder after the race to the French coast, as well as also a bit beaten up in the engagements on the Belgian line, had vigorously assaulted French and British troops and had been repulsed with substantial losses, as was certainly a possibility: the mythos would have suffered, which may or may not have had consequences for the will to fight of future opponents. And maybe on a world political scale as well. No matter how they ended, also here it is pretty sure there would have been an appropriate reaction by the opponents, even if Axis had made one of those - in retrospect - errors.
Yet it sure is fun to speculate about and read other's analysis and theories.
ORIGINAL: wdolson
The critical resource Germany lacked was oil.

There were a few other resources Germany lacked, like they didn't have access to large tungsten deposits, which affected the quality of AP shells, but oil was the critical large volume commodity they needed.

I think a few other metals were scarce as well, and such lack was felt for the later high-tech weaponry. I recall later armor steels ("Wotan" types or whatever) had to be produced accepting poorer quality, being more brittle than the original design. Another resource that apparently was enormously important for Wehrmacht (and remarked often in the Wehrmachtsberichte of 40, 41 and later), was -- surprisingly today -- rubber. Maybe this one is sometimes underestimated in importance, but guessing from what lengths the Germans went to in order to import it from Asia via Russia or later smuggle it by ship, it was very precious for production.
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RE: Ships that Never Sailed

Post by Dili »

I think that is more than a little unfair to say the least. France and Britain were democracies, their leaders desperate to avoid a repeat of the carnage of WWI. Its easy to criticise with hindsight, but against that background they tried their utmost to contain Hitler - not realising until too late that his demands could never be satisfied. Yes, the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia was a sorry episode, but again was done in a last bid to avoid a wider war.

I disagree, if they wanted peacefully resist Hitler than the most effective resistance to Hitler was in Germany, instead they made Hitler a winner to German eyes and thinking they were avoiding a War just they got a World War... and don't even get me started into "drôle de guerre" the French let Hitler and Nazis play a Napoleon textbook piecemeal on Poles and them.

Romania was the only place that had any of significance.

Libya had it also, but wasn't discovered yet...
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RE: Ships that Never Sailed

Post by Nikademus »

Hitler was anything but mad when the war started and during the early stages. Because of the complexity of the conflict and of that of Hitler's Third Reich, inevitably one has to resort to simplifying what are seen as major developments during the war and of decisions that were made. Hindsight does the rest. Digging for the underlying truths is tough and truth be told requires a lifetime of study. No one decision or small number of decisions caused this or that to happen.....but was part of a steady progression of events, driven by factors and variables that rarely see light of day. Its too complex really.

One of the more interesting books I've read in the last couple of years was "Ostkrieg: Hitler's war of Extermination in the East" Its a good but challenging book to read. Challenging for the subject matter (if i were to distill it.....its basically a story of humanity at it's worst.....Have Not's willing to go to the most ruthless extremes to acquire what is felt to be their rightful share of the pie. ) Challenging for the complexity of it all.

The ultimate horror of the situation is realizing that whatever one wishes to label them......"Nazis....Fanatics.....Nutjobs, they were Human Beings. Its a story of Humanity at it's most ruthless. Even scarier is the brutal logic of it. Scary read. But a necessary one if one wants to try to understand the hows and whys.

To pull out but one example of drilling down, History forums often repeat over and over and over how stupid Hitler was to invade Russia. Had only he not done it.....etc etc. I used to be one of them in my younger days. After reading this (and other books as well) I began to see it in a different light. The Third Reich was not a self sufficient country, even after it's victory over France. If anything the German economy was in a more precarious state with a population becoming increasingly disquieted when the promised riches of a short war started to tarnish. Defeating France eliminated a hated enemy of the past but France itself offered little economic benefit for the Reich, the author in fact argues the opposite, it increased the burden on the Reich's economy. From Hitler's viewpoint, he saw a worldwide conspiracy of Jewish hostility and Bolshevik menace. He was especially fearful of the American administration and of course had no delusions about Stalin.

Initially there was indecision on what to do next. All in his inner circle though realized that time was against the Reich, Russia or no Russia, the US was re-arming, gearing up for a potential conflict. Hitler was convinced the US would be an enemy (he was right) and there were horror stories of a Germany surrounded by enemies now strong enough to threaten it. (re: a rearmed and rebuilt Red Army on the East.....a Bolstered England with the US in the West etc) There were fears of 1940 Germany, blockaded, might suffer the defeatism that infected the population in 1917-18. Sure they were getting help from Stalin, but what was Stalin getting out of the deal? What if he decided to blackmail Germany with that economic aid to force concessions?

Hitler was looking at the big picture too. He wanted the Reich to be a World Power. Sitting around and doing nothing with a non-self sufficient economy and inadequate space to expand the German people so that the country could become a World Power was self defeating. The Third Reich could not survive long under such circumstances. If the people became restless, they might be toppled, or at least that was the fear.

I could go on and on, but the point was that ultimately the Third Reich was compelled to invade Russia for geopolitical reasons as well as basic economic and resource related reasons. It was not simply "Hitler being stupid and invading Russia creating a 2nd Front"

Another example is the treatment of what are seen as possible allies. Yes in hindsight it seems daft that the Germans didn't tap into the anti-Soviet resentment within the USSR. Doing so however literally went against the grain of Third Reich goals and objectives. Hitler had laid it all out in his book after all. One can argue that it might have been handled differently but ultimately the T. Reich and Stalinist Russia had to fight because of the geopolitical goals. Germany was far from prepared to do so when it did, but by the same token, Stalinist Russia would, like the US only get stronger the longer Germany waited.





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