Great Game & Expected Frustration

[Yogi the Great]

Just got the game yesterday one of those must haves for me. Let me first make clear this thread not meant as a gripe and I do suggest anyone interested in Civil War games buy it.

Love the graphics and the feel of the game. I had a game called Shattered Union that was not as good but had some similarities as far as movement so I expected similar "frustration". Perhaps it will come in time for this old grognard but I find that trying to figure out the sequence of when, how and to where units move is going to be the most frustarting part. I think I am ordering the command group and perhaps no one or only the commander moves and then struggle to figure just which buttons in what order I have to press. Learning that the arrows after the order is made don't mean the exact spot where the unit will be. Learn that the commander often goes out front the "lines" and then you have to move him back. Sometimes the units seem to have a mind of their own and decide to set up somewhere else. Setting up behind those fences or other spots you want to be seems to become a real challange to get them eactly where you want them as they set up well behind, in front and/or stradle such items. Must need that perfect touch?

Again I like the game and expect many hours of play. Maybe someday I will actually figure out how to handle such frustrations.

If anybody has some good tips on this, would love to see them.

[Mikesla]

Hi Yogi the Great.

With everything, it takes time, and SOW is no exception. Believe me when I say that you will get accustomed too playing SOWgb. I have been playing SOWgb for over two years now, and I am still learning.

also, the Multiplayer aspect of SOWgb is simply brilliant.

[Erik Rutins]

Hi Yogi,

Did you start by going through the in-game tutorials? If not, I would absolutely recommend those and a read through the manual.

Regards,

- Erik

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi Yogi,

Did you start by going through the in-game tutorials? If not, I would absolutely recommend those and a read through the manual.

Regards,

- Erik

I've been playing the game for a few years and I don't think anything in the tutorials addresses the specific points that Yogi has listed. Great game and I just purchased both expansions, but Yogi has accurately captured a few of the main gripes I have with the engine.

Next release needs to fix these points:

1. Units need to 'lock-on' to cover so that once I tell a unit to form up behind a wall, it stays there and doesn't keep shifting around every time the enemy moves a few degrees. Units should have a minimum 90 degree arc of fire that allows them to engage multiple targets to their front without changing their position. Total War gets this exactly right.

2. The silly feature of all the men on either flank of a Regt having to switch positions from L-R and R-L under fire in order for the Regt to adopt a line formation needs to be fixed.

3. If I tell a Bde to march in column, it should remain in column until engaged, in range of a spotted enemy unit or ordered to adopt line. Too much snaking around all over the place.

Hopefully, now that Matrix are involved the Devs will have some extra revenue and motivation to fix those long-standing 'features'.

[Mikesla]

Hi.

I'm could be off the mark here but have you tried using the TC (Take Command from A.I) option so that your troops would obey your commands?

[RebBugler]

I've been playing the game for a few years and I don't think anything in the tutorials addresses the specific points that Yogi has listed. Great game and I just purchased both expansions, but Yogi has accurately captured a few of the main gripes I have with the engine.

Next release needs to fix these points:

1. Units need to 'lock-on' to cover so that once I tell a unit to form up behind a wall, it stays there and doesn't keep shifting around every time the enemy moves a few degrees. Units should have a minimum 90 degree arc of fire that allows them to engage multiple targets to their front without changing their position. Total War gets this exactly right.

2. The silly feature of all the men on either flank of a Regt having to switch positions from L-R and R-L under fire in order for the Regt to adopt a line formation needs to be fixed.

3. If I tell a Bde to march in column, it should remain in column until engaged, in range of a spotted enemy unit or ordered to adopt line. Too much snaking around all over the place.

Hopefully, now that Matrix are involved the Devs will have some extra revenue and motivation to fix those long-standing 'features'.

Yeah, this isn't tutorial learning related, and, TC is not a good solution and/or fix

1) Yes, this needs to be a feature/fix, it will be submitted
2) This one will be tough, it's nagged us since before release. It will probably take a rewrite of some formations, if not all, but it will be submitted
3) This has been submitted but rejected because of gameplay preferences, plus, it can be modded in using hold form column formations.

Thanks for the input...

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: Mikesla

Hi.

I'm could be off the mark here but have you tried using the TC (Take Command from A.I) option so that your troops would obey your commands?

Thanks. That's fine at Brigade level, but once you get into a Div or Corps level battle it doesn't help much. I generally stick to the Bde-level battles which are superb.

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: RebBugler

I've been playing the game for a few years and I don't think anything in the tutorials addresses the specific points that Yogi has listed. Great game and I just purchased both expansions, but Yogi has accurately captured a few of the main gripes I have with the engine.

Next release needs to fix these points:

1. Units need to 'lock-on' to cover so that once I tell a unit to form up behind a wall, it stays there and doesn't keep shifting around every time the enemy moves a few degrees. Units should have a minimum 90 degree arc of fire that allows them to engage multiple targets to their front without changing their position. Total War gets this exactly right.

2. The silly feature of all the men on either flank of a Regt having to switch positions from L-R and R-L under fire in order for the Regt to adopt a line formation needs to be fixed.

3. If I tell a Bde to march in column, it should remain in column until engaged, in range of a spotted enemy unit or ordered to adopt line. Too much snaking around all over the place.

Hopefully, now that Matrix are involved the Devs will have some extra revenue and motivation to fix those long-standing 'features'.

Yeah, this isn't tutorial learning related, and, TC is not a good solution and/or fix

1) Yes, this needs to be a feature/fix, it will be submitted
2) This one will be tough, it's nagged us since before release. It will probably take a rewrite of some formations, if not all, but it will be submitted
3) This has been submitted but rejected because of gameplay preferences, plus, it can be modded in using hold form column formations.

Thanks for the input...

And thank you for the prompt and open feedback sir!

Can you tell me how the hold column formations mod works? Is it something I can download, or do I need to edit a file locally? Hot key?

[Redmarkus5]

With respect to point 2 (the L-R issue) I was thinking that when movement is plotted, an 'objective line' would be plotted - as in TW or Sid Meyers GB. Each unit would have a left and right marker (the leftmost man and rightmost man) as we used to have when drilling in the military. Units in Line would march straight ahead by marching with reference to the unit's centre, wheel left around the left Marker and wheel right around the right Marker. Units in column would move through each 'point' (4 sprites wide) on the ground taken by the officer leading the column. The kind of logic used to move fleets around in Stormeagles Jutland would work just as well on a Civil War battlefield...

Something like that anyway.

[Kipper]

I played the first two games but had to give up on them, as it turned into a frenzy of micromanagement as formations did not go where they were supposed to, constantly pulling back leaders from solo kamikaze runs into enemy formations etc. and I did not see any improvement in the SOW demo. Always wound up having to take command from the AI of most formations. It turned into a Command & Conquer clickfest on steroids.

I would also love to hear how experienced players get around this, as I would love to enjoy this game and to be fair to it, it's obvious many do. I suspect just beyond these problems lies my dream game! I will stay on the fence for now anyhow.

[Yogi the Great]

Thanks everyone for the comments. Nice to know too that it isn't just me. I have had a heck of a time trying to get units to go where I want, in the proper formation and the proper place.

I think the comments from redmarkus4 are very valid and better explain some of the frustration I was talking about. It would also help with the "realism" feel of the game if the troops actually could properly form a line behind fences, walls, ditch lines etc. and stop the automatic unrealistic moves. Also my cavalry has gotten on and off theeir horses so many times without me doing anything to cause it it was a bit distracting if nothing else. Also as described in the one AAR they love to charge even when they should be holding. Now I am not a programmer so I have no idea how difficult, expensive or possible it may be to "fix" these items. The earlier game I mentioned in the first post had these same types of issues. I have also found that trying to click on the unit you want and/or then double click a point for it to go to doesn't always register and you may have to do it several times before you get what you want.

Ok once again to end on the good things, very interesting game, fun to watch, worth the purchase and great potential. However I do feel that the "frustration factors" might end up being enough of a turn off to some to not buy expansions or future games based on the mechanics if the game can't be more responsive to some of what has been discussed. Like some previous games I have had, once the initial fun and new factor wears off, I would hate to have frustration make it be one more game collecting dust. Right now I am just enjoying it.

[RebBugler]

Can you tell me how the hold column formations mod works? Is it something I can download, or do I need to edit a file locally? Hot key?

I have it modded into my Bugles and Flags toolbar. Also, it can be assigned to the keyboard.

[RebBugler]

It would also help with the "realism" feel of the game if the troops actually could properly form a line behind fences, walls, ditch lines etc. and stop the automatic unrealistic moves. Also my cavalry has gotten on and off theeir horses so many times without me doing anything to cause it it was a bit distracting if nothing else. Also as described in the one AAR they love to charge even when they should be holding. Now I am not a programmer so I have no idea how difficult, expensive or possible it may be to "fix" these items. The earlier game I mentioned in the first post had these same types of issues. I have also found that trying to click on the unit you want and/or then double click a point for it to go to doesn't always register and you may have to do it several times before you get what you want.

Yeah, I hear ya.

Wrapping on the walls and fences would be a major improvement, it has been submitted along with the other similar request of maintaining positions on support objects.

Cavalry is constantly being code adjusted, maybe we'll get it right for everyone's tastes eventually, a work in progress if you will.

Control, yes control. This is my main focus for change, being on the inside, to make a difference in how the game plays on the player's end. I'm a pain in the butt for Norb about this. For me TC is not the answer, it works but then demands for way too much micromanagement or your units are toast. I'll keep jabbing, maybe I'll get some hits.

[Mikesla]

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

ORIGINAL: Mikesla

Hi.

I'm could be off the mark here but have you tried using the TC (Take Command from A.I) option so that your troops would obey your commands?

Thanks. That's fine at Brigade level, but once you get into a Div or Corps level battle it doesn't help much. I generally stick to the Bde-level battles which are superb.

I know what you mean. Anything over Brigade can get pretty tiresome BUT what I do if I have to micromanage my troops is, if I have to TC any of my regiments, I assign them each a Hotkey so that all I need to do is select that key, and have them do exactly what I want them to do with very little fuss. This way I can now micromanage even Corps if need be.

Cheers.

[RebBugler]

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

With respect to point 2 (the L-R issue) I was thinking that when movement is plotted, an 'objective line' would be plotted - as in TW or Sid Meyers GB. Each unit would have a left and right marker (the leftmost man and rightmost man) as we used to have when drilling in the military. Units in Line would march straight ahead by marching with reference to the unit's centre, wheel left around the left Marker and wheel right around the right Marker. Units in column would move through each 'point' (4 sprites wide) on the ground taken by the officer leading the column. The kind of logic used to move fleets around in Stormeagles Jutland would work just as well on a Civil War battlefield...

Something like that anyway.

This has been added to the submission,

Thanks for your input

[Redmarkus5]

Deleted

[RebBugler]

ORIGINAL: Kipper

I played the first two games but had to give up on them, as it turned into a frenzy of micromanagement as formations did not go where they were supposed to, constantly pulling back leaders from solo kamikaze runs into enemy formations etc. and I did not see any improvement in the SOW demo. Always wound up having to take command from the AI of most formations. It turned into a Command & Conquer clickfest on steroids.

I would also love to hear how experienced players get around this, as I would love to enjoy this game and to be fair to it, it's obvious many do. I suspect just beyond these problems lies my dream game! I will stay on the fence for now anyhow.

And again I say, yeah, I hear ya

I agree with your points, and frankly, to be a successful General and score those coveted Major Victories, a lot of micromanagement is necessary. Still, lots of folks like this, you're in there doing it, not just a coach on the sidelines, or just giving orders, and watching it play out. It's intense, and the immersion as you go about your tasks is unmatched by games of this genre.

Sure, the suicide officers can be a pain, but this has been improved. More experienced officers avoid this much better, let them work their troops. The less experienced officers tend to love dying, but they're lousy at command anyway, so you just TC them, park them in a safe place, and guide their regiments. Once engaged, regiments will do their job, and not wander off or be useless. You learn to micromanage what needs it, which officers and units need your guidance, and which to trust on their own.

I have never felt the game to be a click fest or frenzy as some have put it, but you do have to work, learn your units capabilities, and play smart to learn how to be a good and successful General.

Formation setups can be stubborn at times, but you don't have to TC anymore. We have a new command called 'attackmarch' which replaces the old TC necessities. Units obey attackmarch commands, they go into the eye of the tiger, but not as zombies, you can send them and leave them. Can't guarantee they'll survive, but they will obey, and won't stop until they bump heads with the enemy.

Anyway, enough promo for tonight. We're continually working on that 'Dream Game'. We're getting closer, it's not there yet, but it's better than yesteryear, and I am confident that it will continue to improve toward that perfection of historical realism we all demand.

[RCHarmon]

ORIGINAL: Kipper

I played the first two games but had to give up on them, as it turned into a frenzy of micromanagement as formations did not go where they were supposed to, constantly pulling back leaders from solo kamikaze runs into enemy formations etc. and I did not see any improvement in the SOW demo. Always wound up having to take command from the AI of most formations. It turned into a Command & Conquer clickfest on steroids.

I would also love to hear how experienced players get around this, as I would love to enjoy this game and to be fair to it, it's obvious many do. I suspect just beyond these problems lies my dream game! I will stay on the fence for now anyhow.

One of the great strengths of the game is that you can command as many troops as you wish or as few. The AI will control all troops that you chose not to. Now getting to know the AI and how it works will help in playing the game.
While learning the game a player should keep to a single brigade and smaller battles. I have played battles where all I "took" to command was a battery of artillery. One way that I still play the game is I play a large sandbox game, but only take a brigade and try my best to help my side win.
If you want to micromanage you can. If you don't and just want to give general orders and sit back you can do that too. If you just want to command a single brigade or a single division you can do that.

Anyway this is one of the best games out. One of the reasons for this is the many ways the game can be played. If you want a challenge try a HITS game.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great

Love the graphics and the feel of the game. I had a game called Shattered Union that was not as good but had some similarities as far as movement so I expected similar "frustration". Perhaps it will come in time for this old grognard but I find that trying to figure out the sequence of when, how and to where units move is going to be the most frustarting part. I think I am ordering the command group and perhaps no one or only the commander moves and then struggle to figure just which buttons in what order I have to press ...

If anybody has some good tips on this, would love to see them.

Under the older TC, I would simply ensure that (1) the Cdr was well to the rear of his formation before it began to move and (2) that I haven't detached -- broken chain icons in TC -- any of his units before giving orders to move en mass.

Another criticism of this engine was that very aggressive Cdr's, if left to their own, would simply keep attacking regardless of their diminishing lines of men; in TC, I would set aggressive Div Cdrs to "Probe" so that brigades only advanced to the outer ranges of their firing effectiveness.

Of course, I don't know if any of these options remain in SoW.

Most other games simply add a modifier giving aggressive cdrs an attack bonus.

[kkomisarcik]

Another criticism of this engine was that very aggressive Cdr's, if left to their own, would simply keep attacking regardless of their diminishing lines of men; in TC, I would set aggressive Div Cdrs to "Probe" so that brigades only advanced to the outer ranges of their firing effectiveness.
Of course, I don't know if any of these options remain in SoW.

Yes, setting the stance is also in SOW. It is very important to do so too. You must know your subordinate's strengths and weaknesses and use them accordingly. If you have a bold commander, giving him a stance of defend will prevent him from acting like Conan the barbarian. Of course if you want Conan, tell him to attack. [;)]