Idaho defends the Motherland

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ORIGINAL: Speedy

ORIGINAL: bigbaba
it's like pelton said:

with a low moral russian army and a intact german army one can regain the lost territory easily in 42 and overrun the manpower centers in russia twice what will cause even more damage to them.

I agree. I'm beginning to think this ultimately need to be looked at as once the standard Axis response to first Blizzard is to Sir Robin and then 'guarantee' victory in 42 with little that the SU can do (especially the potential gamey absuse of giving up large Manpower Centres knowing when they're recaptured it will detriment the SU further) it will make the game a null and pointless endeavour for any SU player.

The "fix" would be to make city's worth something so both sides would fight over them. This would mean SHC manpower #s would have to be increased.

Right now the game is all about ball room dancing. Summer 41 SHC runs east, 41/42 winter GHC runs west and then as SHC figures out 42(few have) 42 SHC runs east. 1943 static and finally 1944-1945 both sides fight tooth and nail for land.

The game has gotten better and better as WitP has over the yrs. WitP was a mess for yrs before it is what it is now.

The wite game system is right, it just needs a few minor tweets and it would have the perfect feel we are all looking for.

I think its been clear now for 18 months what is needed, but for some reason 2by3 will not do it or can't code it.

1. A turn by turn VP system.
2. Tweek manpower output of SHC so it can take higher losses fighting forward.
3. Nerf the insane cav blizzard BS. Cav units are horses or lt tanks, not both as 2by3 has stated in past.

It is simply 100% not possible to lose less then 30 german divisions vs someone that knows how to exploit the current cav ruleset and this is 100% not historical. I lost 10 divisions running 2 hexes a turn vs Bobo and his losses were 3.5 million during 41. Its just not possible as GHC to fight forward during blizzard as it is 100% not possible to fight forward during 41 summer as SHC vs an average GHC player.

The player base is not stupid. We will not fight forward if the other side has an unhistorical unfar advantage.

41- 70
42- 60
43- 50
44- 45
45- 40

Something allong those lines would gave game less of a feel of ball room dancing and more like a cage death match.

They will get it right at some point.

Before I jeopardise this AAR I just wanted to say I agree with your overall sentiments here Pelton. I do think in an ideal world something should be done to strongly discourage Sir Robins whilst allowing a side the ability to conduct a strategic withdrawal if prudent.

Idaho - How many Guards Units have you got so far?

[bednarre]

If the Russian attack capability was more accurately modeled, the UBER-encirclements and mass German retreats would be significantly curtailed. The UBER-blizzard modifiers could be reduced and for once the German side would have to worry about setback before winter 1942. Consider this, if 18 Russian brigades surrounded a German divison attack CV of 4 in a level 1 fort, the basic odds are only about 2:1. If the superior German leadership is factored in, the Russian attack would have a very small change of success. Does this seem historical?

Also, for 2 years now there has been a digital seesaw war of varying fortification efficiency, supply efficiency (remember the Moscow UNTER-supply rule), manpower modifier, and of course, AP costs. Despite this, with the trend generally being to increase the power of the Wehrmacht, the basic scheme is still Germans vs Russian ants, Russians vs German ants, etc. There is little JOINT ATTACKING in a turn. Do you thing the recent ARs with experienced Russian players perfoming great strategies would do so much worst than Stalin did? Were there no non-blizzard, successfull Russian attacks before Stalingrad? Why could the Russian Army retreat successfully in 1942 in real life? It seems WITE models Russian capability according to Hitler's assumptions (kick the front door in and the whole structure will come crashing down). Too bad one can't stack 6 brigades to a hex.

[IdahoNYer]

Idaho - How many Guards Units have you got so far?

Speedy - I have a grand total of ONE Guards Rifle Division, although I have a number of support units that have flipped to Guard status.

Screen shot shows my top "winners" of division sized units. Looks like I've got a number ready to pop.......

[TulliusDetritus]

We can perfectly extrapolate methinks [:)]

I had started the Blizzard Massacres with a single miserable Guards Rifle Division. I was doing around 70 attacks per turn (like you did in one of the blizzard turns you mention). Ergo you should easily be getting minimum 50 Guards Rifle Divisions (that's what I got) [8D]

[IdahoNYer]

Long encouraged to strike out toward Pskov, NW Front finally launches "Operation Klydon" after being slightly reinforced from Leningrad Front. Its objective is taking Pskov in order to disrupt Armee Group North operations and draw forces from the already hard pressed Armee Group Center.

The Germans looked to establish an economy of force line here, and Rifle Divisions opened a hole for a tank division and tank brigade to exploit. The Soviet tankers advance much farther than I originally hoped, while not taking Pskov, manage to cut all rail lines moving through the city.

I figure this attack, if nothing else, will draw additional German forces as qiuckly as bugs move toward a light. That will probably doom the lead tankers, but this attack has served its purpose tenfold already. If the Germans don't react quickly enough, I'll activate 8th Army and reinforce success.

[IdahoNYer]

Kalinin Front continues to push for the prize of Smolensk. Orginally just a holding attack to draw forces away from the Bryansk and Volkov Front's attack, momentum of the initial attacks put the Front in position to actually take the city of Smolensk...

North of Kalinin Front, 40th Army was activated and sent to protect the expanding flank between Northwestern and Kalinin Front. Most of the units are ill trained for offensive operations, but even so, the army has managed to push the Germans slightly back.

Kalinin Front's three armies continue to push the attack. 22nd Army, pushing the limits of its supply lines, continues to reach for Vitebsk - or more likely over-reaching. Unless the Germans pull back on the armies flanks, 22nd Army will be very exposed.

24th Army fails in a key deliberate attack, and will have to regroup.

20th Army manages to force a breakthrough of some 40 miles - but the gap is only 10 miles wide, and the other two armies failed to really support this kind of offensive exploit. Blizzard or not, I expect the 51st Tank Division to be encircled and destroyed in next turn.

Overall, good progress, but the supply lines are begining to become over-extended and fatigue is rapidly hindering efforts. A snow turn would not be good right about now....

[IdahoNYer]

On the north side of the Voronezh Bulge, things begin to "shake out".....

On the western most portion, Western Front's 3rd, 4th and 10th Armies meet lightening resistance and manage to push armor and cavalry through gaps. 3rd Army's 104th Tank Division's scouts actually reach the Dneipr! Western Front is focusing all its effort on taking Gomel - thought to be well out of reach a few weeks ago, now....it is reachable.

North of Western Front, 49th Army has transitioned to the defense in order to protect the expanding flanks....we'll need another army here shortly.

54th Army continues to support the attack by protecting Western Front's eastern flank.

Bryansk Front disengages for the turn in order to move more to the west. All its forces attempt to gain replacements, and it will follow behind Western Front/54th Army in order to continue to push the attack southward.

Volkov Front, finally able to really mass its three armies in the attack, pushes through a 30 mile wide gap forced into the German lines NW of Kursk, its primary objective. As STAVKA armies press from the east, German forces NE of Kursk are in real danger of being encircled.....

Overall, the northern side attacks seem to be gaining momentum - we will push as hard as we can, taking the risk of German counter attacks if a snow turn should pop up.

[Peltonx]

What turn is it?

Nice job on blizzard operations.

The blizzard is still way way to powerful.

The games now are desided during blizzard as 1941 summer for germans has been nerfed to about what was historical. As SHC realize they dont have to defend the southern front at all Leningrad will not be a given.

With Russian loses being far lower then historical, because there is no need to fight forward on 66% of the map large nad med size pockets are a thing of the past.

This in turn means that SHC blizzards(plus the cav exploit) can all but seal the game by Feb 1942.

Again the skill level of the german player has to be very high or the first winter is a disaster as SHC armys are 5 million plus.

At this point the German player is better served to farm morale for most of the summer then pull back to Poland before winter and then try to win in 42. You will atleast have 80 to 90 morale infantry divisions and 4.5 million men to defend Germany for a draw.

Great job on your blizzard offensive the GHC over all infantry morale will be completely trashed by March and he will have zero offensive punch.

Game should be over by late 44 unless you shot yourself in the foot [:)]

[Klydon]

I believe it is the first part of January.

This appears to be a great turn for the Russians and Scar can't be pleased at all when he got the turn. His lines are crumbling in a lot of places and you can see he has gotten desperate by committing his security regiments in an attempt to plug some holes and that is typically a inexperience mistake. (Hint: attacks on security regiments are usually good for cheap wins. ).

I am somewhat surprised you have that many armored divisions left, but you put them to good use for sure. He has some areas in some deep trouble and really needs a snow turn to both blunt your attacks and also to consider trying to get some withdraws in. Either way, it would not surprise me to see him finally running en mass from the Kursk area to the south. He has so many areas crumbling, etc that he is probably trying to figure out what the heck to do to plug the holes.

Have you seen his German mountain divisions by chance? They may be headed to Pskov. [;)]

[Peltonx]

2by3 desided that a single snow turn from Dec to Jan made the winter to easy on GHC so there is zero random weather during Dec-Jan.

Random weather is a complete and utter joke, as it is based on nothing.

41/42 was a once every 100 yr event. The "random" weather makes 100% sure that the weather can only be worse( colder and more mud) then was historically a freak event.

IF the weather was based on historical records the weather could only be the same as 41/42 or better( warmer).

Some of that good old Russian bias that needs to be removed from a game that should be based on historical records and not The Lord of The Rings weather records.

[IdahoNYer]

Pelton/Klydon -

Jan 1, 1942 turn. Although my experience is pretty limited (2xPBEM and few against the AI), if the Soviets are anywhere near 5 million men by Blizzard, the Germans are going to be in trouble with the post 1.05 fort rules. What I think hurt Scar more than anything was assuming forts every other hex would be able to form a solid line - doesn't work - Soviets just infiltrate between the hexes and then can either isolate the fort, or the German is inclined to pull back, abandoning the forts. Scar chose to pull back in pretty much all the cases, and has paid for it.

Without forts, the German is really going to get a drubbing in the Blizzard. I think if he keeps his manpower over 3 million by the end of blizzard, he'll still have a good chance to launch a fairly good 42 summer offensive. I'm guessing here...

[IdahoNYer]

The remainder of the front has the Soviet attack making limited gains as German resistance stiffens near Kharkov.

Southwestern Front's three armies make very limited gains as they are high fatigued and have taken some losses.

Caucasus Front was attempting to bypass Kharkov to the east, but the success of the Fronts on the northern side of the bulge has forced a change - turn west and attack! Unfortunately, that means Kharkov. 2nd Shock Army makes some progress to the north, but 29th and 61st Armies can not break through, instead grind forward.

57th and 16th Armies make limited progress forward, keeping the pressure on.

[IdahoNYer]

Lastly, the Crimean sideshow.

Operations may have culminated as the Coastal and 56th Armies have forces the Germans and their worthless Rumanian allies out of the Crimea.

Not sure I can, or if its worthwhile to try to push northward. We'll assess that next turn - If I can keep pushing, I'll do so.

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer

Idaho - How many Guards Units have you got so far?

Speedy - I have a grand total of ONE Guards Rifle Division, although I have a number of support units that have flipped to Guard status.

Interesting. You do indeed have many to pop! Thanks

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

What turn is it?

Nice job on blizzard operations.

The blizzard is still way way to powerful.

The games now are desided during blizzard as 1941 summer for germans has been nerfed to about what was historical. As SHC realize they dont have to defend the southern front at all Leningrad will not be a given.

With Russian loses being far lower then historical, because there is no need to fight forward on 66% of the map large nad med size pockets are a thing of the past.

This in turn means that SHC blizzards(plus the cav exploit) can all but seal the game by Feb 1942.

Again the skill level of the german player has to be very high or the first winter is a disaster as SHC armys are 5 million plus.

At this point the German player is better served to farm morale for most of the summer then pull back to Poland before winter and then try to win in 42. You will atleast have 80 to 90 morale infantry divisions and 4.5 million men to defend Germany for a draw.

Great job on your blizzard offensive the GHC over all infantry morale will be completely trashed by March and he will have zero offensive punch.

Game should be over by late 44 unless you shot yourself in the foot [:)]

I agree that blizzard 41 is slightly over powered but disagree that summer 41 has been nerfed for the Axis. All things being equal in the majority of games LG or Moscow will fall. Let alone the fact the SU has too poor an offensive capability meaning fighting forward is virtual suicide.....bednarre makes some food points above too.....

[Klydon]

I see at least one German mountain division now stuck down south. Be interesting on how Scar redeploys in the face of this offensive across the front. It looks like you had a fairly large pile of attacks this turn, which is good. Beat up the Germans as much as possible to cause losses both to his moral and OOB.

I would get that mountain division out of the Crimea and redeploy it someplace else. Russian mountain divisions are underrated in their ability to move in the blizzard and also pack a pretty good punch. I usually try to conserve them these days for the blizzard and then use them a lot during the blizzard.

[IdahoNYer]

Turn 30; Jan 8, 1942.........Blizzard

Industry moved: Kalinin 4xHI

Winter offensive continues to make good to outstanding progress north of Belgorod, while German defenses remain strong in the Kharkov region. Fatigue and lengthing supply lines are slowing offensive operations in places more than German defenses.

Overall, I'm trying to put my "STAVKA" hat on, and "seeing" the battle results as they happen, vs. historical hindsight - which means I'm going for what Stalin tried to do historically - the "knockout blow" against Army Group Center. I'm going to push as hard as I can to try and destroy Army Group Center......which I doubt I can manage - but its going to be fun trying!

Here in NW Front's area, one key attack is held up which pauses the offensive punch of "Operation Klydon" to take Pskov. However, the Germans still seem thin here, so there is opportunity - and frankly, I'm having trouble getting all the forces engaged near Kursk, so I pulled 55th Army out of STAVKA reserve, and sent it to augment NW Front's attack. Its a fresh, well led (Vatutin) army which should re-energize the attack!

[IdahoNYer]

Kalinin Front continues to advance to take Vitebsk and Smolensk. German resistance here seems to be breaking - being stretched considerably - and Soviet Tank elements push advances - but the 51st Tank Div and a Tank Bde are routed by panzer led counter attacks - so there is more here than meets the eye.

Still, holding Smolensk will be challenging, as Soviet forces are enveloping it on three sides, and the 24th and 20th Armies remain in fairly good shape - despite the German counterattacks.

To the north of Kalinin Front, 40th Army - sent to establish a defensive linkage between the NW and Kalinin Front - manages some foward progress as well.

To the south, 49th Army is indeed on the defensive, holding an increasing frontage between Kalinin and Western Fronts as the Fronts have success.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer

Pelton/Klydon -

Jan 1, 1942 turn. Although my experience is pretty limited (2xPBEM and few against the AI), if the Soviets are anywhere near 5 million men by Blizzard, the Germans are going to be in trouble with the post 1.05 fort rules. What I think hurt Scar more than anything was assuming forts every other hex would be able to form a solid line - doesn't work - Soviets just infiltrate between the hexes and then can either isolate the fort, or the German is inclined to pull back, abandoning the forts. Scar chose to pull back in pretty much all the cases, and has paid for it.

Without forts, the German is really going to get a drubbing in the Blizzard. I think if he keeps his manpower over 3 million by the end of blizzard, he'll still have a good chance to launch a fairly good 42 summer offensive. I'm guessing here...

I have several games vs 5 million man SHC armys 1.06.13 and have had little trouble and am playing a game as SHC and the GHC is having a little trouble but not that bad. You must have a short front and retreat 2 hexes a turn.

Right now the SHC blizzard is just a complete historical joke. The only troops that got pocketed in mass were russians not germans.

I think the artition rate and morale losses are just right, but the pocketed GHC units is another example of the Lord of The Rings mindset of 2by3.

Lets stick to something allong the lines of what is or was historically possible based on (the physics of this world) an not Middle Earth.

The GHC is basicly toast at this point because their infantry morale come April is crushed.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

ORIGINAL: Pelton

What turn is it?

Nice job on blizzard operations.

The blizzard is still way way to powerful.

The games now are desided during blizzard as 1941 summer for germans has been nerfed to about what was historical. As SHC realize they dont have to defend the southern front at all Leningrad will not be a given.

With Russian loses being far lower then historical, because there is no need to fight forward on 66% of the map large nad med size pockets are a thing of the past.

This in turn means that SHC blizzards(plus the cav exploit) can all but seal the game by Feb 1942.

Again the skill level of the german player has to be very high or the first winter is a disaster as SHC armys are 5 million plus.

At this point the German player is better served to farm morale for most of the summer then pull back to Poland before winter and then try to win in 42. You will atleast have 80 to 90 morale infantry divisions and 4.5 million men to defend Germany for a draw.

Great job on your blizzard offensive the GHC over all infantry morale will be completely trashed by March and he will have zero offensive punch.

Game should be over by late 44 unless you shot yourself in the foot [:)]

I agree that blizzard 41 is slightly over powered but disagree that summer 41 has been nerfed for the Axis. All things being equal in the majority of games LG or Moscow will fall. Let alone the fact the SU has too poor an offensive capability meaning fighting forward is virtual suicide.....bednarre makes some food points above too.....

Is there a single case of Moscow being lost in a 1.06.13+ game todate?

The SHC would have to be a complete newbie to loss Moscow now.

Even I can hold it and I can't even figure out how to merge units. Lol holding Moscow now is a given.

The only questions now is will Leningrad hold and how bad will the GHC get a morale beat down during blizzard.

If GHC gets a morale beat down then Berlin drops in 44 if not its a draw with slim chances of minor wins for both sides.