Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason?

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obvert
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RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason?

Post by obvert »

I think you'll need Jocke's side right? I'll send a note to him but he's at work and will likely be home and able to send it within the next two hours.
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RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason?

Post by JocMeister »

michealm,

Sure do!

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RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason?

Post by JocMeister »

LoBaron, You hit the nail on the head! [:)] I think this might be what Alfred hinted at too but I´m not sure!

This was certainly a suprise for me but good to know its not a bug. If I could ask something it would be to able to disable this repair feature. In this situation where I have the ships disbanded in a port without repairyard it would have been much more preferable to not have them repair the damage.

Perhaps the shouldn´t make major repairs while in readiness mode or something.

Thank you all for helping us solve this! [:)]

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obvert
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RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason?

Post by obvert »

Thanks to all for helping us get back on track. I'm going to go ahead and 'complete' my partial test from above and I'll post that here when I see how much system damage the Valiant will accrue for it's many destroyed devices.

In order to keep going without having to replay turns we're going to have the ships stay at Madras to repair the system damage and I'll not attack the base as long as he keeps fighter CAP there to protect the ships.
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RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason?

Post by geofflambert »

I'd like to point out that in Obvert's playtest, CL Birmingham took 5 bomb hits and showed no damage on the first day. That simply isn't possible. I'm also suprised that the day two damage shown was so light. I think the bug has to do with the damage displays not showing actual damage. Since they're your own ships, there should be no FOW to it. I suggest you back it up and continue playing until someone can give a definitive answer on this. I suspect if there is a bug, it's just that you're not receiving correct info in a timely manner. This would be a factor if your ships set out to sea and then you discovered the damage.

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obvert
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RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason?

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I'd like to point out that in Obvert's playtest, CL Birmingham took 5 bomb hits and showed no damage on the first day. That simply isn't possible. I'm also suprised that the day two damage shown was so light. I think the bug has to do with the damage displays not showing actual damage. Since they're your own ships, there should be no FOW to it. I suggest you back it up and continue playing until someone can give a definitive answer on this. I suspect if there is a bug, it's just that you're not receiving correct info in a timely manner. This would be a factor if your ships set out to sea and then you discovered the damage.

I think I may have set the screenshots in a misleading position. The top one indicates one 'test.' Only the bombing. I didn't post a combat report for this as it was overwritten when I did the second test. So the CL Birmingham may not have taken any bombs in that one.

I'm now running the turns to see if the same device/damage correlation happens with the 'test 2' game continuation since there are so many ships with device damage.
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RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason?

Post by obvert »

TEST

Here is the result of waiting a few days to see what happened to BB Valiant hit by 61 bombs in the incomplete test earlier. This set of screenshots should confirm that LoBaron and Alfred nailed it and that this sudden spike in damage is the cost of replacing devices. In this case the system damage maxed out to 99 (!!) after only the 2 pdr guns were replaced. I don't know what happens from here on out as there are still a lot of devices to repair. Does the repair only continue to lower system damage until the total is low enough, and then repair other devices adding more system damage? I'll keep running this occasionally as it is functioning as another test for me as well.

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RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason?

Post by witpqs »

99 system damage seems harsh.
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RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason?

Post by treespider »

Have a few questions-

Would be curious to see results of a Naval Attack when the ship was at sea? Would the "fires" be present then, because the port is possibly extinguishing them during the repair segment before you see them?

What happens if you put the ship into a TF immediately after the Port Attack with all of the small guns still damaged but little Sys accumulated...will there be repair that takes place that inflicts SYS damage even if the ship is at sea.?

In regards to witpqs -
99 system damage seems harsh.

I don't have a problem with the 99 sys considering the topside was absolutely crushed by the bombs that wipped out all of the tertiary armament.
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RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason?

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

99 system damage seems harsh.

I can live with 99sys damage, after all they started replacing 24 2pdr guns from a pretty wrecked BB superstructure.

BUT:
I got a serious issue that this happens in readiness status.
IMHO destroyed devices should only be replaced in the other repair modes.

Michael, what is your opinion on that?
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RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason?

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

BUT:
I got a serious issue that this happens in readiness status.
IMHO destroyed devices should only be replaced in the other repair modes.

+1 on that!
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RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason?

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: treespider

Have a few questions-

Would be curious to see results of a Naval Attack when the ship was at sea? Would the "fires" be present then, because the port is possibly extinguishing them during the repair segment before you see them?

Very likely, always depending on the ammount of fires and the ships dmg control capability (sp. ship type/size, speed, weather, crew exp, and commander skill)
What happens if you put the ship into a TF immediately after the Port Attack with all of the small guns still damaged but little Sys accumulated...will there be repair that takes place that inflicts SYS damage even if the ship is at sea.?

No, you need to be disbanded in port to replace destroyed devices.
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RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason?

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

BUT:
I got a serious issue that this happens in readiness status.
IMHO destroyed devices should only be replaced in the other repair modes.

+1 on that!

Yes. I certainly wouldn't have expected that. Maybe because this is a size 9 port?

In the test I noticed the BB didn't begin repairing until other smaller ships had their devices replaced, and there was no major spike in system damage for the CAs or CLs, but even the torpedo tubes of CA Devonshire were repaired. In fact the system damage goes down a point each turn for the CA.



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RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason?

Post by geofflambert »

So, is the consensus that the reason this happens is not because the devices were destroyed in the attack but were damaged, and like insurance companies do to cars, "total" them even though they have some degree of function, then when they're removed the display shows them as destroyed?

I was once rear ended by some moron at 20 mph (which can kill people) because he had to talk on his cellphone while driving. He did not even touch his brakes. The car (an Accord) was "totalled" by the insurance company and some time later a car dealer in Oklahoma called up because they were now in possession of it and couldn't find anything wrong with it, and were incredulous as to why it was "totalled". When you get down to brass tacks the insurance company screwed the owner (and driver) of the car in order to repair it to "like new" quality, sell it and pocket the profits. He was unable to buy a car anywhere near the quality of the one his insurance called "totalled" for the money they paid him.

I really brought this up for anyone who might read this who thinks you can talk on a phone or text and drive at the same time. No one can, not even Bill Clinton. You can do one or the other properly but not both at the same time. People who answer or call on a phone while driving will always give top priority to that activity, and many die as a result. Natural selection, I guess. But how is it natural selection in the case of the people they kill? I should stress that no-hands phone systems are exactly no different. The hands are not the issue. Your focus and attention is. I often refuse to even converse with my passengers when I'm driving. It's just too dangerous (and careless I might add).

How's that for veering off topic?

I still want reaction to the beginning of this post.

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RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason?

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

So, is the consensus that the reason this happens is not because the devices were destroyed in the attack but were damaged, and like insurance companies do to cars, "total" them even though they have some degree of function, then when they're removed the display shows them as destroyed?

No. Where did you get that from?

The devices get destroyed. Replacing destroyed devices takes time, the bigger or the more complex the device, and the larger the number of devices,
the larger the ammount of time required for this. In addition a device consists of mountings on the deck, which can be damaged as well, or cables,
feeding belts,... leading to the device which can be damaged and destroyed as well.

In WitP a device is represented by only a number. It changes from 0 (destroyed) to 1(fully functional) in a single phase. So you need a placeholder for the ammount
of time required for a complex repair and replacement operation.
This placeholder function adds sys dmg to the ship when the destroyed devices get replaced - sp. when a device number changes from a red "0" to a white "1"
(sys dmg aded probably depends on the devices load cost + maybe a random (?)).

It is an abstraction to simulate a complex situation with the variables available within the game, without introducing new variables.
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RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason?

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

So, is the consensus that the reason this happens is not because the devices were destroyed in the attack but were damaged, and like insurance companies do to cars, "total" them even though they have some degree of function, then when they're removed the display shows them as destroyed?

No. Where did you get that from?

The devices get destroyed. Replacing destroyed devices takes time, the bigger or the more complex the device, and the larger the number of devices,
the larger the ammount of time required for this. In addition a device consists of mountings on the deck, which can be damaged as well, or cables,
feeding belts,... leading to the device which can be damaged and destroyed as well.

In WitP a device is represented by only a number. It changes from 0 (destroyed) to 1(fully functional) in a single phase. So you need a placeholder for the ammount
of time required for a complex repair and replacement operation.
This placeholder function adds sys dmg to the ship when the destroyed devices get replaced - sp. when a device number changes from a red "0" to a white "1"
(sys dmg aded probably depends on the devices load cost + maybe a random (?)).

It is an abstraction to simulate a complex situation with the variables available within the game, without introducing new variables.

Do you have any ideas why the CA devices seem to accrue no 'place-holder' damage from replacing torpedo tubes and radar? It's hard to see this as equivalent to the 2pdr guns of the BB, but the tubes and radar seem like they might be a bigger job than a few day's work at least.
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RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason?

Post by michaelm75au »

One thing I have noticed is that if the BB was attacked at sea, the SYS damage from weapon damage appears by the end of the turn.
But if the BB is attacked while in port, the same SYS damage does not get added until sometime during the port repair cycle when the ordinary SYS damage is repaired or drops below some point.
Thus the small SYS (eg 7) in the examples above, while the real SYS (which is applied sometime during the repair cycle) is 60ish.
I think that this weapon damage check should have been done for the ship in port as well. This will lead to more correct reporting of the ship's "true" SYS damage.
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RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason?

Post by michaelm75au »

It is not the actual device replacement that is spiking the SYS, but the fact the total of the damaged devices does not reflect the actual SYS showing. In the example with the 99 SYS, the SYS of 9 was not correct for the number of actual devices damaged. When one device set was repaired, it calculated the total damage and determined it was understated.
From the result, I would expected that the correct SYS level after the port attack should have been closer to 99 than the value it was (9).
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RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason?

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: obvert

Do you have any ideas why the CA devices seem to accrue no 'place-holder' damage from replacing torpedo tubes and radar? It's hard to see this as equivalent to the 2pdr guns of the BB, but the tubes and radar seem like they might be a bigger job than a few day's work at least.

Madras is a pretty large port, so probably generates quite an ammount of - as Alfred dubbed it - IRPs, even for readiness mode. But it is not unlimited.

So, actually I believe Devonshire accumulated placeholder dmg. Possibly even a lot. If this wasn't so, the sys dmg had reduced much faster.
Also it is a matter of priority, if Devonshire was among the first to receive repair points that easily explains the difference. No IRP left for poor BB.
Also CAs are much more difficult to repair than BBs.
Also Ramilles had 24 devices replaced at once, Devonshire only 4.

All this factors into what you experience. How much repair capacity is available for what is difficult to decipher in your example.

The test you are making would only produce usable results if you first disband one ship in port, and observe, and then the next one, and observe.
Only one ship at a time.

If you don't do this you cannot draw conclusions on repair speed, or relative damage caused by device replacement, as the repair points spent
on one ships' sys dmg continousely influences the repair points available for other repairs on the same and other ships.
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RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason?

Post by LoBaron »

WOW Michael! Thanks for the explanation!

So there has always been a bug in the dmg calculation algorithm? [X(]
That does not completely offset my explanation but dubs it down somehow...
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