War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

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JocMeister
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I apologize to those of you checking in for a game update.  My opponent has totally disappeared.  I'm sure it's work related, but I do wish he'd extend the simple courtesy of emailing, "Hey, no turns for the next xx days."  Or, "Hey, turns very sporadic this week." 

Perhaps you should let PHJ know you would appreciate a note when he pulls his disappearing acts? I would think it was common curtsy to let your opponent know if you wern´t able to send the turns as usual. Only takes a minute to jolt down an e-mail...
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by Walloc »

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: desicat
Strangely, although Diego Garcia is called an Atoll, its stacking limit is 60,000.

Having actually been to Diego Garcia I can say with confidence that there is no way 60,000 men could set up a base camp and survive for any period of time. Where in the world did the designers come up with 60,000?


wow, that's Diego Garcia? Aren't (weren't) there B-52 stationed?

Well it is the largest atoll in the world according to Wiki. It currently has stationed 4-5000 men there atm, army as civilian, Looking at sat photoes it doesnt seem that crowded. Meaning the men there seems to be in specific areas of the atoll, leaving much of it untouched. Presumably that could change.
If one takes a look at the square kilometers of some of the 6k man in game atolls, well this is several to many times the size. There seems to be some logic in game of square kilometer vs size vs stacking limit. Not that im saying that its necesarrily right.
If u look at the most crowded battles in WWII tho its not much of a direct comparison. Goodwood, Kursk. U could find examples of that many men in that amount of square kilometers. Maybe 30k had been a better choice but it is larger than Tabitua that hold 30k in game. If u look at number of men Japanease crammed at Tarawa and look at size. Logic would dictate that DG would be able to hold significantly more.
I guess one could se the 60k as ok this is reallly max if we crammed it, more than. This is what we think should be there. It is over twice the size of Peleliu and well both sides had a division(+on US side) there.

Playing devils advokate,

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Bullwinkle58
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

I too spent five months on DG in the mid-80s. I can confirm there is no way you could station 60,000 men there. The space is very cramped (about .25 miles across at the widest), but the shallow fresh water "lens" under the landmass would never support that kind of drain. When I was there total population on the island was about 4000 and water restrictions were ever present.
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I too spent five months on DG in the mid-80s. I can confirm there is no way you could station 60,000 men there. The space is very cramped (about .25 miles across at the widest), but the shallow fresh water "lens" under the landmass would never support that kind of drain. When I was there total population on the island was about 4000 and water restrictions were ever present.
On the Babes optional stacking with the extended map it's spec'd at 40,000.

(I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just reading it!)
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by desicat »

wow, that's Diego Garcia? Aren't (weren't) there B-52 stationed?

The below is from Wiki (It sounds way bigger than it is):

Following the fall of the Shah of Iran and the Iran Hostage Crisis in 1979–1980, the West became concerned with ensuring the flow of oil from the Persian Gulf through the Strait of Hormuz, and the US received permission for a $400 million expansion of the military facilities on Diego Garcia consisting of two parallel 12,000-foot-long (3,700 m) runways, expansive parking aprons for heavy bombers, 20 new anchorages in the lagoon, a deep water pier, port facilities for the largest naval vessels in the US or British fleet, aircraft hangars, maintenance buildings and an air terminal, a 1,340,000 barrels (213,000 m3) fuel storage area, and billeting and messing facilities for thousands of sailors and support personnel.[26]

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CaptDave
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by CaptDave »

DG would have been my deployment location if we had executed a certain war plan, but we didn't and I never went. Don't think I missed much (Guam was bad enough).

To my knowledge we (the US) have never actually stationed B-52s there. In my time, at least, we used it only as a base for KC-135s to refuel the Buffs flying to and from points east (Darwin for training purposes, but I don't remember what was in the war plan, and I wouldn't mention it if I did since I don't know if it's still classified or not). But that was in Bullwinkle's time, about 27 years ago.
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: CaptDave

DG would have been my deployment location if we had executed a certain war plan, but we didn't and I never went. Don't think I missed much (Guam was bad enough).

To my knowledge we (the US) have never actually stationed B-52s there. In my time, at least, we used it only as a base for KC-135s to refuel the Buffs flying to and from points east (Darwin for training purposes, but I don't remember what was in the war plan, and I wouldn't mention it if I did since I don't know if it's still classified or not). But that was in Bullwinkle's time, about 27 years ago.

Heavy bombers of several varieties were staged from there in Desert Storm and since. I believe they have built sealed hangars to service the stealth guys, and this has been reported in the press. In my time there the only deployed planes were P-3s, but some F-14s visited, there were daily supply runs to and from the airhead in Oman and out to the battle group by Vikings. There was also a special, large fuel tank in the ramp area for the SR-71's needs.

DG's role changed a lot during and after DS. In the late 70s and the 80s it was a voyage repair point for subs and light skimmers from the IO BG (usually had a tender anchored), a refueling spot, a comm station, an intel collection point for various points to the NW, an ASW hub to service the BG's needs, and the anchorage point for "Carter's" RDF ships. These RDFs were there to hit Iran if needed, and to counter-balance the Soviets while they got their behinds kicked in Afghanistan.
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by Lipty »

This is my first AAR report read (I finished PH's side last night) and have learned alot about strategies in the game. It has been interesting seeing what you take away from things that I completely ignored because I wasn't sure what it was for or thought it was just game fluff.

You commented that you were in a hurry once and didn't watch a single combat animation and that that was near blasphemous. I watched one the first time and assumed that it was just something to entertain me the first time time you do battle like the opening movie when I installed the game. What are you taking away from it? I assumed it was all shown on the combat report when I review it when the turn is done. Are there particular settings I should be using to get the most out of it ( I also had all times set to zero to speed up the play)?

I started a scene one game as allied a few weeks ago (I abandoned the Japanese one I started because I was so overwhelmed by the complexity of the production system).

Hit a couple of stumbling points such as trying to get MacArthur to board a submarine to get him off the rock. I even tried at gunpoint and that SOB would not get in it. I had also immediately fallen back to Manila and Bataan when the Phillipines were invaded as I assumed those were the places to defend but in your AAR you staunchly defended Clark (do to terrain defenses if I remember correctly).

My carriers are all being repaired in Capetown (except Sara that got torped 5 hexes from Johnson and went down like Titanic with all hands and planes on board). I was very aggressive going after every merchant I could find contrary to your strategy that has hardly had to replenish in 3 months.

Since your conterpart is AWOL and I am already kind of hi-jacking your thread... does it matter when I am re-assigning troops what group I associate them with or can I just safely pick pacific fleet for all?

I have greatly enjoyed the AAR so far and have learned an immense amount (the acronym's still have me scratching my head at times but usually if I keep reading someone will through out enough info to figure what they mean) about strat but I am still struggling with the details of gameplay, but I guess trial by fire (albeit with AI rather than a thinking person).

Thanks for the work putting up this AAR.
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by Canoerebel »

5/8/42 and 5/9/42

My opponent popped back up late yesterday afternoon. No explanation. No apology. Then he sent an invitation this morning to convert from one- to two-day turns (can you even do that?) on the basis that he's standing down from his offensive phase now, so that not much will be happening. This is all very odd. This is the kind of things I would expect from an opponent who is getting distracted by another game. I wonder if that's it? Anyhow, I'm going to decline the two-day turn offer. I am just beginning to ramp up and it won't be all that long before the Allies are pushing pretty hard. Besides, the situation in China is very delicate and requires micromanagement.

If Steve isn't blowing smoke here and is actually transitioning to the defensive, that's pretty surprising to me. Q-Ball pushed much harder, longer and effectively in the game I played with him a couple of years ago. But Steve may be blowing smoke.

North America: Quiet.

Pacific: Tarawa invasion group is 36 hexes southwest of LA; 81 hexes from Tarawa. Several small advance amphibious groups are alread at or west of Baker Island, including a little TF that will drop off an Army battalion at Ndeni in a few days. A Kiwi brigade is ashore at Noumea, boosting the AV there to 150.

Oz: KB still close to Exmouth, but no imminent sign of a move on Perth.

DEI: The last Allied base (other than Cocos) is Sabang, which Steve should take care of shortly.

India: I'm still puzzling over all the pieces, trying to figure out if Steve might truly resume an offensive (targeting Socatra, as mentioned previously, or expanding west from Calcutta) or if he's really standing down, in which case the situation will stabalize so that the Allies can begin to move forward.

China: Orders issued to evacuate Lanchow due to Japanese troops moving west (true) from Sian. Time to establish the new MLR in the wooded-rough terrain north (true) of Chungking.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by BBfanboy »

Hi Lipty - since Canoerebel has not responded yet I will offer my thoughts as someone who was in your shoes not too long ago.
Firstly - I hope you have had a go at some of the shorter scenarios to get the feel for gameplay and how to use all the switches and buttons. There is not as much strategy involved in these scenarios since the situation is pre-defined, but you learn lots about what you can do safely and what is too high a risk.
I recommend doing the Guadalcanal scenario first and then the Marianas: Guadalcanal because it is relatively early in the war when your unit experience levels and equipment are less potent than the Japanese, and Marianas because the situation is reversed. Especially useful was learning how to put together amphibious invasions with all the attendant bombardment, minesweeping, air CAP, ASW and supply support.

About combat animations - if you set the time to 0 for them, you see nothing. The animations themselves are uninspired but the little messages during combat can be valuable. For example, if you had a cruiser/destroyer TF intercept a TF with CV Shokaku and read the subsequent combat report, it might say "Shokaku - 12 hits" but you would have no idea what damage was dealt by those 12 hits , which in turn might leave you in a quandry about whether CV Enterprise should risk an attack next turn. Watching the animation would show whether most of the hits were from your cruiser's 8" guns and whether there was engine damage, electrical damage, etc. or, alternately if the hits were all 5" in caliber and most were on Shokaku's armor belt (i.e. no significant damage).
I have not seen useful messages during air-ground, ground-ground, or sea-ground combat so I set the time for these to 0. Some people watch air-air combat animations and compare the losses with the combat report and the Intelligence report to try figure out what really happened. I don't find it that useful for the amount of work, so I just use the combat and Intelligence report figures. That leaves air-naval and naval-naval (including sub attacks) that I watch with a setting of 1.0 second for messages. It only gets tedious when ships are machine gunning each other at 1000 yards.[>:]

You are doing the right thing by reading the AARs on this forum - lots of wisdom from the experienced players and info on how to do things that aren't documented well in the manual. Lotsa luck with your game.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by Canoerebel »

ORIGINAL: Lipty

This is my first AAR report read (I finished PH's side last night) and have learned alot about strategies in the game. It has been interesting seeing what you take away from things that I completely ignored because I wasn't sure what it was for or thought it was just game fluff.

Thanks for reading, Lipty.
You commented that you were in a hurry once and didn't watch a single combat animation and that that was near blasphemous. I watched one the first time and assumed that it was just something to entertain me the first time time you do battle like the opening movie when I installed the game. What are you taking away from it? I assumed it was all shown on the combat report when I review it when the turn is done. Are there particular settings I should be using to get the most out of it ( I also had all times set to zero to speed up the play)?

Many little but significant things can show up during the combat replay that aren't reported on the actual combat report - coastwatcher sightings, sightings of enemy TFs, detailed information about particular combat [such as the example BBFanboy pointed out with his Shokaku example, etc.] In a close match against a tough opponent, I would always watch the combat replay and pick up a zillion things doing so. Perhaps in 1944 as the Allies, you can sometimes reach the point where it isn't absolutly critical to watch the replay, but even then it would be risky.
I started a scene one game as allied a few weeks ago (I abandoned the Japanese one I started because I was so overwhelmed by the complexity of the production system).

Hit a couple of stumbling points such as trying to get MacArthur to board a submarine to get him off the rock. I even tried at gunpoint and that SOB would not get in it. I had also immediately fallen back to Manila and Bataan when the Phillipines were invaded as I assumed those were the places to defend but in your AAR you staunchly defended Clark (do to terrain defenses if I remember correctly).

Just replace him as a commander if you wish to do so (though the resulting PP cost is high, so it might not be worth doing so).
My carriers are all being repaired in Capetown (except Sara that got torped 5 hexes from Johnson and went down like Titanic with all hands and planes on board). I was very aggressive going after every merchant I could find contrary to your strategy that has hardly had to replenish in 3 months.

Since your conterpart is AWOL and I am already kind of hi-jacking your thread... does it matter when I am re-assigning troops what group I associate them with or can I just safely pick pacific fleet for all?

Usually it's impossible to align units with headquarters - PPs are too precious. Generally, I just try to get them assigned to a theater HQ that makes the most sense and gives the best chance of linking up. Thus, American troops bound for the Pacific generally get a Pacific HQ attachment.

I have greatly enjoyed the AAR so far and have learned an immense amount (the acronym's still have me scratching my head at times but usually if I keep reading someone will through out enough info to figure what they mean) about strat but I am still struggling with the details of gameplay, but I guess trial by fire (albeit with AI rather than a thinking person).

Thanks for the work putting up this AAR.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by Lipty »

Thanks for the response BB.
I did the 1000 miles war scenario from both sides and Guadalcanal from the japanese side before I tried the full scenario again. Enjoyed the Guadalcanal as the first computer game I ever played was TF1942, which was just about 20 years ago.
I will add the replay to the sequence. The time between turns used to be the time to get up and do something... now I will have to adjust.
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by Encircled »

Maybe PJH has put the request out for two day turns as he thinks you might be up to something, and if you say "No", it might confirm it for him.

As a reader of your AAR's, you do tend to take the offensive as early as possible, and maybe he suspects something is coming, and used a fairly devious way of getting confirmation?

Or am I thinking a bit too far outside the box?
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Maybe PJH has put the request out for two day turns as he thinks you might be up to something, and if you say "No", it might confirm it for him.

As a reader of your AAR's, you do tend to take the offensive as early as possible, and maybe he suspects something is coming, and used a fairly devious way of getting confirmation?

Or am I thinking a bit too far outside the box?
Or perhaps he has realized his scattergun strategy has reached the limits of possible achievements and he really doesn't know what to do next other than dig in. He will certainly see that CR has not panicked [sp?] and has met each attack with a balanced response. Worst of all for Japan, he has not been able to force the kind of carrier confrontation that would enable him to carry on without fear for six - ten more months. A player can lose a lot of interest when the writing is on the wall.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by Andav »


Why would you ever tell your oppoent, "Ok ... I am going on the defense now. Go ahead and just do what you want." It is only May of 42 for cry'n out loud!!!

To me it sounds like someone with a lot going on in real life and feels the stress of an obligation to a PBEM opponent. I know I have gotten there before but communicating with your partner really does a lot to releive that stress.

Wa

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by hkbhsi »

I don't think it is possible to change to 2 day turns in game.
Apart from that, I find that his request really shows poor taste; even if it's true that he is going to the defensive and turns would be slow, by accepting you would immediately let him know when you are ready to attack by asking to go back to 1 day turns.
Just my 2 cents.
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: hkbhsi

I don't think it is possible to change to 2 day turns in game.

There was a recent thread in the general that is possible now to change in a PBEM game. I believe it formerly was not possible, but the last official patch altered this. Anyway, it should be possible to do, but the sequence has to be done exactly correctly, and I believe the thread stated that the Japanese player has to initiate it.
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by hkbhsi »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: hkbhsi

I don't think it is possible to change to 2 day turns in game.

There was a recent thread in the general that is possible now to change in a PBEM game. I believe it formerly was not possible, but the last official patch altered this. Anyway, it should be possible to do, but the sequence has to be done exactly correctly, and I believe the thread stated that the Japanese player has to initiate it.

Good to know about that, thank you.
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by CaptDave »

ORIGINAL: hkbhsi
Apart from that, I find that his request really shows poor taste; even if it's true that he is going to the defensive and turns would be slow, by accepting you would immediately let him know when you are ready to attack by asking to go back to 1 day turns.
Just my 2 cents.

I haven't read PH's AAR today, so don't know his thinking, and thus feel I can safely comment on this particular issue. I will say simply that hkbhsi's thought here was exactly the same as mine; this is akin to asking you to give 48-hour notice of an impending offensive. That kind of thing went out a couple centuries ago!
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by crsutton »

CR,

Would you review your losses in India? Has he destroyed any major Indian or Australian units?

Or British?
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