Multiplayer M60A3TTS & Fulkerson vs Farfarer

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Flaviusx
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RE: Week 119

Post by Flaviusx »

The real fun begins when he reaches the Baltic coast. This is going to make the Curland pocket look like child's play.

I'll give Farfarer this much: he's crashing and burning in a most spectacular way. This game could be over before 1944 is out.

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RE: Week 119

Post by bigbaba »

maybe that is a good example for a german player who do not know when it's enough and it's time to go to defensive modus. some kind of victory disease.

and even if the cut off troops east of riga get supply they are out of action when m60 goes for poland.
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RE: Week 119

Post by janh »

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
The real fun begins when he reaches the Baltic coast. This is going to make the Curland pocket look like child's play.

I'll give Farfarer this much: he's crashing and burning in a most spectacular way. This game could be over before 1944 is out.

Yes, that's it! Most spectacular... I do understand a bit his motivation to keep the game dynamic and moving as long as possible, but if you don't want to end up like this, you have to assume a defensive stance at some point. Else, even if not as badly overexposed as he was here with this really vulnerable long flank between the northern and southern lines, the Soviet must get quicker to Berlin than with a conserved Wehrmacht and good fort belts. His huge pocket a few turns back looked like a close thing, and if successful, would have put you back by a couple of months. But it was a "win all or loose everything" move. Actually not even a win all, a win a little bit or loose plenty...

Another thing I derive as lesson from this AAR is... never to underestimate the manpower dispersed in the south. Any axis player knowing that this game is about disabling the Red Army must take measures to secure the area up to Kursk and Stalinogorsk or better even Rostov in 41. There is more manpower there and hence, more damage to the Red Army than by hurting Moscow, though that's a lot there, too. Leningrad in comparison is just flank security and getting the Finns into play, but it usually is the center or south were the war is decided.
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Seminole
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RE: Week 119

Post by Seminole »

Perhaps MT will share his GIS work with the community so we can get a picture of the manpower centers on the map. My understanding is that in reality the population centers were around Leningrad and the Moscow-Gorki area.
"War is never a technical problem only, and if in pursuing technical solutions you neglect the psychological and the political, then the best technical solutions will be worthless." - Hermann Balck
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RE: Week 119

Post by Flaviusx »

There is a lot of manpower down south. The problem: it's not defensible. It's very hard to stop the Axis much further west than Voronezh/Rostov, and the Donbas in particular -- very rich in both manpower and factories -- is well within reach of a 17 turn clear weather drive.

And if it doesn't go in 1941, then it goes in 1942.

Moscow doesn't have quite as much manpower as this area, but it is far more defensible, if, and this is the big caveat, you can ride out 1941. It can be rushed in 1941 when the Red Army hasn't quite jelled. Truth is, in 1941, nothing much stops the Wehrmacht save the weather and the distance from rails.

Note: all this is notwithstanding the very bizarre results of this particular game. It's been highly eccentric almost from the getgo, and is getting weirder all the time.

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RE: Week 119

Post by Peltonx »

Fact is the south is the most important target for GHC, then Leningrad then Moscow.

Defending the south is not possible for SHC, Leningrad is a mybee and Moscow can be held now in most cases because of new tweats to rail heads, logistics patchs ect. In 2 of 3 of my 1.06.14 games Moscow will hold.

So the myth and fairtale Moscow can't be held is just plan BS. [:-]

In past AAR's others and myself have given the manpower numbers.

The south can be rolled easly, mostly held during blizzard and easly retaken during 42 for a double hit to manpower.

If the GHC cant take Leningrad and the Donets in 41 your done game set match. If you take Moscow plus Leningrad and Donets then SHC is most likely toast.

If GHC can take Leningrad and Donets, but SHc holds Moscow its a draw for 41
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RE: Week 119

Post by Flaviusx »

Moscow is a 50/50 proposition, imo, Pelton. It will depend in large part on what happens with Leningrad and how quickly PG4 transfers to AGC. If Leningrad is drawn out, chances are good Moscow holds. It needs to fall by around turn 13 or so to give you enough time to transfer the panzer group over and get some licks in.

So, yes, Moscow can be held, but it is by no means a sure thing.

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RE: Week 119

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Moscow is a 50/50 proposition, imo, Pelton. It will depend in large part on what happens with Leningrad and how quickly PG4 transfers to AGC. If Leningrad is drawn out, chances are good Moscow holds. It needs to fall by around turn 13 or so to give you enough time to transfer the panzer group over and get some licks in.

So, yes, Moscow can be held, but it is by no means a sure thing.


Before last few patchs and much better russian tactics over-all for player base, it was toast most games.

Now with just a little luck its more then likely going to hold.

Looks like biggest reason is over all russian loses are allot lower then in the past. Its allot easyer to with draw east as "muling has been nerfed". "Muling is still possible, but on a much smaller scale. No more unlimited MP's for 2 full PG's as in the past.

Its possible to chain and "mule" a single Corp per PG, which is much easyer for SHC to control. As long as the SHC avoids any major pockets the first 7 turns hes more then likely going to hold Moscow with just alittle luck.

The new rule set has no effect on 42 so I think that the game is better over all and much more balanced.

Not sure a manpower tweat is needed when its not that hard for SHC to have 5 million men by blizzard non-random games and 6 million with random.

I also dont think most SHC players have much of an idea what to do come 43.

More balancing might be needed late war, but without allot of 1.06.13+ AAR's it will be a while before there is enough data.

My past thoughts of a small SHC manpower bump in 1942 are negitive now that I have played enough 41 games. The last few patchs have really nerfed any exploits of the logistics system. A few things can be milked here and there but not enough to effect things as iin the past.
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RE: Week 119

Post by janh »

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Moscow is a 50/50 proposition, imo, Pelton. It will depend in large part on what happens with Leningrad and how quickly PG4 transfers to AGC. If Leningrad is drawn out, chances are good Moscow holds. It needs to fall by around turn 13 or so to give you enough time to transfer the panzer group over and get some licks in.

So, yes, Moscow can be held, but it is by no means a sure thing.

It seem like the recent changes have indeed slowed Axis a bit and made a stand for Moscow possible. I am not sure about 50:50 yet, but it certainly is being held more often recently. That's a good thing, it shouldn't be a sure thing either way, as it obviously wasn't as well in the past, besides making the game more exiting, too.

Maybe this is for the wrong reasons, though, since even to hold it a Soviet player needs to be damned near perfect in his play, not waste any assets without thinking twice and also avoid any wasteful counterattacks and losses. Quite in contrast to the past, where the Soviets assaulted the Germans in many a futile battle (or not so futile, taking into account that the lost time and the attrition of the Germans helped to safe Moscow, stop them just at Rostov). I imagine the Soviet player here should have the means to do the same, and still not forfeit the chance to hold Moscow. It would make life for the Germans much harder, though, if then a Soviet player would also employ hindsight and avoid useless bloodshed. At the very least the blizzard combat penalties ought to be done away with in that case, but I think that combination is really the way to go.





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Flaviusx
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RE: Week 119

Post by Flaviusx »

Pelton, as long as rails can be pushed past Smolensk by late August and you have 3 panzer groups available for the job, Moscow remains very doable. It's simply hard to deal with a full month or more of clear weather operations and that kind of a hammer. Nothing has changed here. The key remains the having that third group available -- and thus Leningrad gone.

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RE: Week 119

Post by Seminole »

I also dont think most SHC players have much of an idea what to do come 43.

It's hard to learn when folks throw in the towel after First Winter (either side).
"War is never a technical problem only, and if in pursuing technical solutions you neglect the psychological and the political, then the best technical solutions will be worthless." - Hermann Balck
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RE: Week 119

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Pelton, as long as rails can be pushed past Smolensk by late August and you have 3 panzer groups available for the job, Moscow remains very doable. It's simply hard to deal with a full month or more of clear weather operations and that kind of a hammer. Nothing has changed here. The key remains the having that third group available -- and thus Leningrad gone.


It will fall in 42, so I am still leaning for a bump in manpower for SHC in 42

I like to see a nerf to SHC cav. Very few SHC have figured out what kind of a gift they have with cav, thank the game gods [;)]

Semi has almost figured it out [:-]
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RE: Week 119

Post by bigbaba »

updates, more updates!

i realy want to know if the tanks of the 1st guards tank army are in riga yet!

and send a bottle of baltic sea water to kremel as proof.:)
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Week 120

Post by M60A3TTS »

WEEK 120 - 9/30/43

The Germans commit their panzer reserves to throw 1st Guards Tank and 1st Shock Armies back across the Daugava. Realizing that the enemy has pulled panzer reserves from Minsk, General Purkaev launches a direct assault against the city with the support of over 9,000 guns. 23rd Guards Rifle Corps of Lelyushenko's 5th Guards Army storms in and takes back the capital of Belorussia. A general advance in the area continues westward approximately 30 miles.

Image

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In the area around Moscow, the advance westward continues towards the city.

Image

In the south, minor advances forward towards Krivoi Rog.

65th Army is re-designated 7th Guards Army
5th Army is re-designated 8th Guards Army
6th Army is re-designated 9th Guards Army

Image
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RE: Week 119

Post by A game »

ORIGINAL: Pelton

I like to see a nerf to SHC cav. Very few SHC have figured out what kind of a gift they have with cav, thank the game gods [;)]

Semi has almost figured it out [:-]

Agreed, as Seminoles opponent in his current game I have been on the receiving end of Soviet cav and they are amazingly effective when used properly, I think they could use a slight reduction in movement capability as they really are just an infantry unit. At the moment they behave alot more like a mechanized unit than the real soviet "mech infantry".

And of course Cav Corps in the Blizzard are just heinous, but this is probably more to do with the controversial 1st winter, "lets balance the over the top Axis summer campaign" issue...
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RE: Week 119

Post by Seminole »

I think they could use a slight reduction in movement capability as they really are just an infantry unit.

Riding a pony is better than marching on your own feet.
Max MP is 22, so they can at best cover 7 hexes during the blizzard (in friendly terrain). Factor in enemy terrain cost (most likely +2MP if morale is 41-55, but it is possible for a guards unit to be at only +1MP in late FW), and movement is more like 4-5 hexes, and that isn't counting any MP used for attacks.
50 miles isn't an exceptional distance to cover on horseback in a week, at least Nathan Bedford Forrest wouldn't think so... [8D]
"War is never a technical problem only, and if in pursuing technical solutions you neglect the psychological and the political, then the best technical solutions will be worthless." - Hermann Balck
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Week 121

Post by M60A3TTS »

WEEK 121 - 10/7/43

The final week before the weather turns.

Front commands are re-named to reflect the new geographic realities.

Image

Our advance to Moscow continues as lead elements are now 20 miles from the city. The fascists clearly have no intent of leaving just yet.

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In the center, the Red Army is within 40 miles of Vilnius.

Image

In the south, Krivoi Rog is taken.

Image

16th Army of North Caucasus Front is re-designated 10th Guards Army
26th Army of Belorussian Front is re-designated 11th Guards Army

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hfarrish
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RE: Week 119

Post by hfarrish »

ORIGINAL: Seminole
I think they could use a slight reduction in movement capability as they really are just an infantry unit.

Riding a pony is better than marching on your own feet.
Max MP is 22, so they can at best cover 7 hexes during the blizzard (in friendly terrain). Factor in enemy terrain cost (most likely +2MP if morale is 41-55, but it is possible for a guards unit to be at only +1MP in late FW), and movement is more like 4-5 hexes, and that isn't counting any MP used for attacks.
50 miles isn't an exceptional distance to cover on horseback in a week, at least Nathan Bedford Forrest wouldn't think so... [8D]


Agreed - while I think Cav is probably OP relative to Tank or Mech Corps, the idea that it is an amazing wonderweapon is strange to me. At best, you get 22 MPs. As long as your opponent is able to maintain a reasonably solid line in blizzard, there is no way you are going to have enough Cav Corps and enough MPs (even if miraculously they all get to 22 MPs) to wreck the German army with Cav Corps. Are they nice? Sure...and against an inexperienced German I suppose they could do a fair amount of damage...but against someone who knows what they are doing? Not really.
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RE: Week 121

Post by hfarrish »


Interesting that you have a 7M man army now - as I recall that's about where it was pre-Farfarer's great '42 offensive. What is your rate of growth?
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RE: Week 121

Post by M60A3TTS »

Actually I peaked at 8.4 million vs. 4.2 million German on turn 53, 6/18/42. So we're each about 1.1-1.2 million less now. Obviously not good for the Germans.
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