Walloc's russian factory evac guide

[Flaviusx]

I throw away the mech units precisely because I value trucks, Walloc. I starve them to death (50% TOE and no replacement priority, not even if they become depleted or unready) and put them in combat situations where they will rout right off the map -- and put their trucks in the replacement pool. This involves some losses, but I get something out of the units and don't need to disband them.

Hoarding them at full combat strength is false economy. They just suck up a ton of trucks this way. 1500+ per unit. The performance of these units bears no relation to the amount of support, supply and equipment they need.

When they get that high it is actually better to disband them outright and that costs your APs. If you leave them alone and they flip over to tank brigades they'll keep most of that equipment and only slowly bleed it off as being over TOE. Ultimately, the moment they enter combat, either as brigades or combined into tank corps, this excess strength dies anyways.

There's no free lunches in the Red Army. Use them and lose them.

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I throw away the mech units precisely because I value trucks, Walloc. I starve them to death (50% TOE and no replacement priority, not even if they become depleted or unready) and put them in combat situations where they will rout right off the map -- and put their trucks in the replacement pool. This involves some losses, but I get something out of the units and don't need to disband them.

Ok, i just prefere not to lose, what is lost in doing that that. See more later tho.

Hoarding them at full combat strength is false economy. They just suck up a ton of trucks this way. 1500+ per unit. The performance of these units bears no relation to the amount of support, supply and equipment they need.

Ok, let me clarify then. I dont hoard them at full combat strength. I keep them at 50% ToE refiting if possbile 10 hexes behind the front lines. Not that u always have this choice. Eat up very little from pools, while digging, getting higher moral and exp. Giving a force come blizzard of tank bdes with 50+ moral u wont have if they come back later. The mot divs will start from a fairly early point morphing into inf divs freeing up the trucks, giving low str inf divs. Useable for either throw at enemy for speed bumps or if moral ends high enough refit to 100% and use for normal actions.

I dont really think the way we use them makes all that much difference Flav. I can understand ur points.

When they get that high it is actually better to disband them outright and that costs your APs. If you leave them alone and they flip over to tank brigades they'll keep most of that equipment and only slowly bleed it off as being over TOE. Ultimately, the moment they enter combat, either as brigades or combined into tank corps, this excess strength dies anyways.

I agree and i noted this over a half year ago where we agreed. Yes is a tendency among some, but far from all of the tank bde made from tank divs too keep extra vehicles and stuff. I tend to not use those in the blizzard offensive but making tank corps's out of them. In effect putting the stuff back in the pool as u say.

Its very possible i havent been pressured enough and would come around to ur point of view if i was Flav. Just saying its not my experince yet that i have needed it and saving every bit of truck is importand.
Actually i might have misspoken here. I just see in lots of AARs ppl letting mot and tank divs be the first line of defence getting surrounded. Losing every truck in them. This is non sense to me. They might only be 0.5-1 CV units with low value but they still can have 600 or more trucks in them a pop. That adds up fast. I might have put to much into what ppl do, as comming from your misunderstanding of ur advice. im sorry.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

P.S Edit: btw Flav since its ur brain child do u have any notes on the U2 rail forward practice i have missed? or just things u have to add

[lycortas]

Part of the problem there is production numbers. Getting your Soviet vehicle factories withdrawn should be critical but it is not.

I agree that finding accurate data on Russian production is difficult but most sources say that LL was about 70-75% of Russia's truck force. In game with full vehicle factory withdrawal the Russians will produce what, 130,000 vehicles? Tops? Lend Lease by the end of April '45 will have brought in 900,000. A bit more than 75%.

Mike

[turtlefang]

The discussion here raises some very interesting issues for new players like myself.

1) Walloc evacuation guide is excellent read for new Soviet players and much appreciated. It made me realize that some factories simply don't need to be evacuated with completely to reach thier full potential.

2) Flaviusx points both here and in other post on running a lean Soviet Army are very good strategic options.

I have a little different approach on the motorize units in the Soviet Army - I disband them as soon as possible. I know it cost AP points but, IMO, its worth it. The saving in trucks, manpower and other equipment is more than worth it. These units are relatively low in combat power, I want them coming back as infantry division as soon as possible, and just not needed in the front lines - they get chewed up too much and loss too much equipment for too little gain.

I also disband the motorcycle regiments, the AT regiments, and most of the AA battalions, and some of the SU Art units. I leave most of the corps HQs but sent them to the rear for auto disbanding.

Sometimes, I will disband the SAD airbases or most of them; sometimes not depending on how things are going.

Like Walloc, I run into major truck problems by the end of the first winter regardless of Army size. The winter just rough on trucks and 1942 usually doesn't let me increase or better my truck position (supply) and I make sure that save all my vehical factories.

[Flaviusx]

Turtlefang, the one thing that keeps me from disbanding these units is that it permanently removes the replacement unit from your OB. (Which is why I like to put tank divisions in situations where they will autodisband -- no penalty there.) So the real AP cost is more than just the 1 AP, it is 6 APs (for the lost tank brigade) or 11 APs (for the lost rifle division.)

Even so, you get so many tank brigades that it may just be worth it anyways. I only care about having enough of them to make two dozen tank corps, anything beyond that is either going to be eventually merged into understrength corps, or simply disbanded. (Tank brigades are meh.)

I definitely would avoid disbanding the motorized divisions, though, I hate losing a free rifle division.

Walloc, nothing to add on the U2 topic, you covered the major points.

[turtlefang]

Good to know. I didn't realize that disbanding the units removed them from the OB - I thought they would return as rifle division just like they were eliminated.

I'll have to re-evaluate my strategy.

[Michael T]

IMO its crazy to disband anything in the summer of 1941 that has a counter with a zoc on the map. You need all these units to help with the defence. Once you hit the October mud go for it. But prior to that its unwise I reckon. Nothing will demoralize a Hilterite invader more than a horde of Soviet counters on the map.

[hfarrish]

I tend to agree - given the current difficulty of surviving '41 intact (or at least, intact while still holding Moscow) you need to use every possible counter you have. Unless depleted, everything has a ZOC and everything can dig.

[delatbabel]

*bump*

[delatbabel]

*bump*

[AFV]

This should be stickied. This is an excellent a+ guide.

[morvael]

Seconded.

[schascha]

+1

[Manstein63]

you just need to remember that now factories do not expand until they have been repaired so if you move 5 points of a factory it will not start expanding until its damage level is back to zero. (unless I have read it wrong)
Manstein63

[OddBall2]

Good Morning Mr Wollac
You Live in Denmark? You english is very good. I have been following your posts on WITE. I am new to the game. i see you are on line. Can you answer one question for me please. I have read numberous AAR's. As the Germans near Pskov on turn Three the better players do a HQBU. I kept my Corps HQ units from moving the turn before and the tank divisons within 5 hexs. But the HQBU on the Corps HQ is not available. How close to say a rail hex does the HQ have to be to be able to do a HQBU? I cannot find it in the manual.

[Seminole]

The HQ needs to have not been moved in the current turn (the one in which you want to perform a build up), and must be 20 or less motorized MP from rail head at the time of the build up.
Hovering the cursor over a hex will display the off rail MP and off rail range for that hex.
You'll want to position your HQ the turn prior to the turn you want to perform a build up so that on the next turn it is within 20 MP of rail head. Keep in mind that rail repair will reduce that range the subsequent turn (the one in which you're performing the build up).

[OddBall2]

Thanks Seminole[:)]

[821Bobo]

ORIGINAL: Walloc
Kharkov
T-34 Factory. Not the most importand as u sorta have enough but non less i prefere to evac it. 15 points should be doable early(turn 5-8) on and gives ok time to repair and expand to when T-34/M42 become operationally. Note here that he T-34/M41 has a build limit of 75, M42 62. This means that there is limited idea in fully evacing it cuz it wil be fully reparied and expanded just about the time that it goes from 75 to 62, making the expansion of those 13 turns not worth much since they are removed any how. Again one of those i'd evac 1 if germans are within Mp to zoc/take city. 1 tho it will take long to repair and expand its better than nothing.

It is really worth to evacuate the T-34 factory? Even without Kharkov T-34 factory you will have more T-34 than you can utilize. It will only eat your armaments production till end of the war.

[morvael]

The late war 85s build in much lower numbers, so this factory comes handy. And on hot weeks I am able to lose entire weekly production of T-34s... At least evac 1.

[SigUp]

A question for the experienced Soviet players, how many Arms / Heavy Industry and Vehicle factories can one lose at most, so that you still don't run into supply problems later on in the war?