Case Blue vs Case Blue?

[Toby42]

For those of you that have played the Case Blue sceanrio from WitE and Decisive Campaigns. How do they compare? Which is the most playable?
I'm still unsure about playability of a Regiment level Case Blue???

Thanks

[TJD]

ORIGINAL: Treale

For those of you that have played the Case Blue sceanrio from WitE and Decisive Campaigns. How do they compare? Which is the most playable?
I'm still unsure about playability of a Regiment level Case Blue???

Thanks

I'm unsure of playability too. It's too much for me, frankly; I prefer smaller scenarios or larger scales. But the good news is that this engine can support a division level mod. Vic even suggested that one be made in the manual for his Editor:

7.11. SUGGESTIONS FOR SCENARIO DESIGN AND CREATION
Here are a number of ideas that would be an awesome addition and that the AI should
be able to handle if you stick close to the current setup.
An Eastern Front scenario on a 40-km hex scale with divisional units as the smallest
unit and weekly turns. It should result in a land only (or mostly land only) scenario
the size of the current Case Blue campaign. HQs should be armies for the Germans
and Fronts for the Soviets with Armygroups and Directions above them (although they
could be skipped altogether) and then OKH and Stavka as high command.

[sandman2575]

ORIGINAL: Treale

For those of you that have played the Case Blue sceanrio from WitE and Decisive Campaigns. How do they compare? Which is the most playable?
I'm still unsure about playability of a Regiment level Case Blue???

Thanks

Well, the scale of WitE - I mean physical scale of km per hex -- is considerably larger than DCCB. Side by side, the WitE case blue scenario looks more 'manageable' in the sense that you are essentially handling divisions as single units, whereas in DCCB the division is typically split into 4 units, so more the regimental than divisional scale in DCCB. (...yes i know german div's in wite can be split into constituent regiments -- but my point still holds).

Case Blue in WitE will certainly be a much quicker experience than DCCB, so in terms of playability, depends on what you prefer. You will certainly 'sink your teeth' more into the Case Blue experience with DC than WitE, because the scale is more detailed and there's more to manage. But DC Case Blue will also take you a lot longer to complete.

[Redmarkus5]

Are AI differences relevant to you?

[Toby42]

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Are AI differences relevant to you?

Yes, since I mostly play against the AI. I'm not impressed with the AI in WitE. It does some really stupid things, but don't they all?

[Templer_12]

I'm not an expert in AI.
I acknowledge, however, I seen in Gary Grigsby's in the East already many moves of the AI I could not understand.

The AI in Decisive Campaigns: Case Blue actually shows interesting behavior.
Whether the AI is better here, I can not judge yet.
But it seems to be more interesting.

Incidentally, this is a very interesting topic which also interested me a lot. [8D]

[sandman2575]

I have to say I find the AI in DC - both Warsaw to Paris and Case Blue -- quite good -- by no means a pushover. Just watching the Soviet AI in Case Blue so far, it's pretty adept and knowing what to defend and how to defend it strongly, and also good at evacuating developing pockets. As with WtP, Case Blue AI seems perhaps stronger on the defensive than on the offensive. It has been really excellent so far at thwarting my drives on Voronezh and Milerwo (sp?) -- I'm trying to break through in multiple 'Schwerpunkten' with 4PzA, 6A, 1PzA, 17A and the AI definitely won't let me do it.

[SteveD64]

Yeah, the AI so far has been a pleasant surprise. I broke through with the LAH division and stuck my neck out too far. The AI counterattacked, split it into two pockets, created a defense perimeter and then crushed it.

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: Treale

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Are AI differences relevant to you?

Yes, since I mostly play against the AI. I'm not impressed with the AI in WitE. It does some really stupid things, but don't they all?

I also mainly play vs. the AI, so that's the clincher for me. There are several pros and cons between the two games that can be debated but, so far, the DCCB AI looks way better.

Also, an number of really annoying WitE issues (spamming Brigades, the AI carpet defence, AI running away, etc. don't occur in DCCB at all, at least not in the early turns.

Finally, DCCB is massively modable - a good modder can create any map and any unit. I believe they could create any period as well, so expect to see the rest of the war in the east, the west, the Civil War, you name it.

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: CLEVELAND

Yeah, the AI so far has been a pleasant surprise. I broke through with the LAH division and stuck my neck out too far. The AI counterattacked, split it into two pockets, created a defense perimeter and then crushed it.

Yes. You can't do the crazy hell for leather moves of other games in this one. The AI will punish you with convincing realism.

[Toby42]

I'm just afraid that with all of the units involved, it would pretty time consuming and confusing to move and account for all of them! To play this at the regiment level there has to be literally hundreds of playing pieces?

I remember The Europa Series and setting up Drang Nach Osten. It took hours and then all you could do was look at it...Impossible to play!

[Keunert]

It's definately not that bad. the turns are getting faster once you played the big scenarios several times.
it takes me around an hour to do a turn if i try to play it with my brain helping. and my brain is not the fastest.

[sandman2575]

ORIGINAL: Treale

I'm just afraid that with all of the units involved, it would pretty time consuming and confusing to move and account for all of them! To play this at the regiment level there has to be literally hundreds of playing pieces?

I remember The Europa Series and setting up Drang Nach Osten. It took hours and then all you could do was look at it...Impossible to play!

I suppose it's all subjective, but there are games where complexity and sheer scope feel just overwhelming, and others where complexity and scope sucks you in. For me, the DC games draw you in -- because as big as they are -- and the full Case Blue campaign is undeniably *big* -- Vic has IMHO done a tremendous job with creating an inviting gaming experience: information is clearly presented (with exception of the Combat Results window -- GAH!!) and it is just aesthetically extremely pleasing. It is a game you want to spend time with. For me (and again, it's subjective), WitE is the opposite: enormous in scope but does very little to make you *want* to spend time with it. Info. is hidden or hard to access or jumbled or blandly presented -- and it gives you very little in the way of feedback---when you can't do something you think you should be able to, it often gives you no indication of what the problem is. I was incredibly impressed yesterday playing DCCB when I had taken an enemy town, closer to the front, and I thought about moving air units to it but wondered if the infrastructure damage to the town would create a supply handicap or other malus if I moved units. So, I thought, let's try and see -- and when I clicked the command to transfer the air units, a window popped up saying: "Are you sure you want to move units to a damaged airfield?" So, I clicked "Cancel" and thought, "this is just another small reason why I love this game."

[Toby42]

The update of WtP will probably be one of the reasons that I buy Case Blue. It has some very nice features!

[Smirfy]

The main difference between Case Blue and WitE is Case Blue has mechanics

[Redmarkus5]

As Case Blue covers less than half the frontage that WitE covers, I find the turns take about the same amount of time to play.

[MengJiao]

ORIGINAL: sandman2575

ORIGINAL: Treale

I'm just afraid that with all of the units involved, it would pretty time consuming and confusing to move and account for all of them! To play this at the regiment level there has to be literally hundreds of playing pieces?

I remember The Europa Series and setting up Drang Nach Osten. It took hours and then all you could do was look at it...Impossible to play!

I suppose it's all subjective, but there are games where complexity and sheer scope feel just overwhelming, and others where complexity and scope sucks you in. For me, the DC games draw you in -- because as big as they are -- and the full Case Blue campaign is undeniably *big* -- Vic has IMHO done a tremendous job with creating an inviting gaming experience: information is clearly presented (with exception of the Combat Results window -- GAH!!) and it is just aesthetically extremely pleasing. It is a game you want to spend time with. For me (and again, it's subjective), WitE is the opposite: enormous in scope but does very little to make you *want* to spend time with it. Info. is hidden or hard to access or jumbled or blandly presented -- and it gives you very little in the way of feedback---when you can't do something you think you should be able to, it often gives you no indication of what the problem is. I was incredibly impressed yesterday playing DCCB when I had taken an enemy town, closer to the front, and I thought about moving air units to it but wondered if the infrastructure damage to the town would create a supply handicap or other malus if I moved units. So, I thought, let's try and see -- and when I clicked the command to transfer the air units, a window popped up saying: "Are you sure you want to move units to a damaged airfield?" So, I clicked "Cancel" and thought, "this is just another small reason why I love this game."

I feel much the same way. WitE seemed promising in many ways, but the sense you had when playing the game was that not only did you not know what was going on, but you couldn't find out and you couldn't do much about it anyway.

DCCB seems a lot more comprehensible. For example, I can see where the large support formations are (engineers, AA, AT, Artillery)
and even if I in some sense pay for this by seeing more units and having (10 km? hexes rather than 16? Km hexes) in many ways
I prefer 10 km hexes anyway. And I can even see some roads!

[Redmarkus5]

Not only roads - bridges! And they matter, believe me. The AI will take back that bridge hex and cut your supply faster than you can blink.

[MengJiao]

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Not only roads - bridges! And they matter, believe me. The AI will take back that bridge hex and cut your supply faster than you can blink.

Yes! Bridges! And you can bomb them. I think the game (DCCB) just plain looks more appetizing than WitE. And:

It's great to have only a part of the East Front. The pleasures of (for example) having to fight on the whole
East front....Well i've had enough of that. And Case Blue really is the decisive campaign -- it is both the closest
the Germans came to winning the war and the first major defeat on the mainland (excludes the
Battle of Britain and Crusader). Of course the Russians might have done even better if they had restrained themselves
after Little Saturn, maybe.