1st Panzer Army AAR

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ComradeP
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RE: 1st Panzer Army AAR

Post by ComradeP »

As to the dive-bombers: I did get them, and they did go to the Stuka unit, but it seems you sometimes get replacements of another type than you can use. For example: during a test run for the first scenario I got Ju 88's instead of He 111H's and I'm not sure if those could be used.

I thought the replacement issue that was fixed might've been that you got the "wrong" kind of replacements, but it must've been something else.
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RE: 1st Panzer Army AAR

Post by british exil »

ComradeP, thanks for the AAR. Was a nice read. Keep up the good work and press on to the next scenario.

Just a few questions? Do you carry on with the same units for the next scenario?
And how steep is the learning curve?

Which game should I start out with? WtP or Case Blue?


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RE: 1st Panzer Army AAR

Post by ComradeP »

In the linked campaign, you have a "core" that carries over. The other scenarios are not linked, but for example a full Case Blue game could theoretically last for almost a year (from mid 1942 to early 1943) so you use the same units for a long period.

To me, that's one of the main good things about the game: long scenarios, where you keep using the same units. I don't own DC:WtP but due to the nature of the scenarios it covers, scenarios in WtP will be quite a bit shorter than Case Blue and units don't carry over with the same stats from Poland to the Low Countries and beyond.

Case Blue also has new features like objectives given to you by high command, which keeps pressure on the advances. The supply system has also been changed, but as I have no experience with the original I don't know much about the specifics.

Which game you should start out with in the series probably depends most on whether you like longer scenarios or shorter scenarios and the Western or Eastern Front. I do have the feeling that Case Blue offers substantially more value in terms of scenarios as there are more scenarios and they're (much) longer than those in WtP, so in terms of "bang for your buck" I'd recommend Case Blue.

It seems the manual of this game is now available to the public, so you can always download that, read it/browse through it and see whether you like the rules and what the game offers.
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RE: 1st Panzer Army AAR

Post by ComradeP »

The second scenario presents the player with several strategic/operational problems to solve:

1) a lengthy initial frontline with two fairly open flanks.
2) spread out objectives (although you don't need all of the towns to win, you do need all of the major objectives I think).
3) as it's somewhat late in the campaign season, you need to get the central rail line up and running ASAP to prevent mud turns putting your units out of supply.

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RE: 1st Panzer Army AAR

Post by ComradeP »

I've made things a bit easier by requesting Wiking, the Slovak Fast Division, a new corps HQ, and the 2nd Romanian Infantry Division to hold the flank eastern. Note that although this might sound like an impressive force on paper, Wiking is a high quality unit but the other two units are reasonably decent but won't get many (if any) replacements so I don't intend to use them for more than flank security or finishing off weakened enemy units. The Romanian and Slovak formations also don't have a separate artillery unit.

Without those reinforcements, I would be forced to make a narrower drive towards Armavir but in those case I have some room for a more elaborate encirclement.

After having played 2 turns, I don't feel the additional units give me a huge advantage thus far, but they do make things easier.

One important thing to keep in mind is that you can't make too many attacks at a low risk because your artillery units lose most of their power after 1 turn and need to refill their supplies for 4 turns before they're fully combat capable again. This means that even though my units are better than the Soviet units on average, I can't simply blow through a line of units turn after turn because it would be way too costly.

As a consequence of the above, I will again try to avoid as much combat as possible by using my superior mobility to encircle the Soviets and/or to threaten to encircle them to force them out of their positions. I think I can take a reasonable amount of losses before the combat power of my units drops spectacularly, but I'd rather take as few losses as possible this early on in the campaign (especially keeping the very random replacements in mind).

Unit placement on turn 1. As before, I did try and optimize my placement for what I wanted to do. This is at the start of turn 1, after requesting the three reinforcement divisions and the additional corps.

Note that you have to be careful with the order in which you place the units as the units will automatically be assigned to the nearest HQ. Placing the additional corps HQ last would've meant seriously overloading XXXX Panzer Korps, so I placed it before placing the Romanian and Slovak divisions. Wiking is attached to III Panzer Korps.

The idea is to use Wiking to cross the river in the west and drive along the rail line where it will link up with part of the 16th Motorized which will force a river crossing targeting a regiment of the 31st Rifle Division. The infantry divisions will clear a path to the river east of Armavir and the 13th Panzer will then move to the river east of Armavir. The idea is to force the defenders of Armavir out of their positions by turn 2 or 3. Note that the 111th Infantry is stacked with 13th Panzer initially.

Even with a Speed card, 13th Panzer can't cross the river east of Armavir on turn 1, which is only a minor problem as it converts the hexes there using ZOC anyway. I used a Speed card on 16th Motorized to make sure the two pocketed Rifle regiments in the river bend wouldn't run towards 1st Panzer Armee HQ. The Soviets did cut the rail line, but that's only a minor inconvenience.

XXXX Panzer Korps will advance east of Stavropol and will, together with 13th Panzer coming from the other side, threaten to encircle Stavropol which should force the Soviet divisions in that area out of their excellent defensive terrain. Note that the two Panzer divisions are stacked on top of eachother at the start of the turn, so you can see only one of them.

Likewise, the Romanian and Slovak divisions are also stacked on top of eachother.

The Romanian and Slovak divisions will hold the flank until the Soviets start to withdraw.

I used a Speed card on 3rd Panzer (so it would be able to advance further) and I believe the 111th Infantry as well (so it could push the 176th Rifle Division back across the river).

The 81st Naval Rifle Brigade was very badly mauled but survived.

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RE: 1st Panzer Army AAR

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Start of turn 2. Wiking destroyed two regiments of the 353rd Rifle Division, the other regiment is trapped. I believe one regiment of the 176th Rifle Division was also destroyed, and XXXX Panzer Korps got two Rifle regiments as well.

Note that the initial Soviet defensive positions have already been seriously unhinged. This move could also have been accomplished without the reinforcements, but it would have been less effective.

The defenders of the Stavropol area are trying to escape certain death, as expected.

The AI attacked the Nebelwerfer unit on its turn 1, but the attack was held.

I used a Speed card on Wiking.

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RE: 1st Panzer Army AAR

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Not a lot of combat during turn 2. The regiments of the 31st and 353rd Rifle Division were destroyed by the 16th Motorized but other than that I mostly pushed my units forwards. Note that the AI left a hex south of Armavir open because it didn't have enough units to hold it, so I moved a regiment of 13th Panzer there. As expected, the AI tried to get out of dodge as soon as it noticed what was happening.

On one hand, I don't think the AI should abandon objectives. On the other, the AI can't be expected to estimate if/when a possible encirclement will become a real encirclement so it's not necessarily a bad strategy that it will usually pull back. Armavir was captured through ZOC. In the greater scheme of things, I don't think it would've mattered to much if I encircled the defenders on turn 2 and then stormed Armavir on turn 4 or 5, or if the defenders moved out like they did now.

I used the XP improvement cards of 1st Panzer Armee on two corps HQ's during turn 1 and 2.

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RE: 1st Panzer Army AAR

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The units around Armavir were encircled on turn 3, and some empty minor objective hexes were captured.

I requested the 97th Jaeger Division, which is now with III Panzer Korps. 13th Panzer was temporarily assigned to LII Korps.

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RE: 1st Panzer Army AAR

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The Armavir pocket was cleaned up.

I now have the problem that my good mobile units are on two sides of the map, and they're not directly supporting eachother. Soviet resistance isn't particularly stiff, but they could theoretically place a close to unkillable stack in Mozdok as I can't encircle the city.

That also leads to my main problem with the auto entrenchment rules: if you move a unit into difficult terrain, it is very difficult to impossible to dislodge it without artillery, which as discussed is not going to be effective during most of the game. If I move a regiment of a reasonable quality into low mountains or a city, the Soviets won't attack it. Clear hexes: sure, but not difficult terrain hexes.

No idea why the AI's attacking with the 17th Cavalry Corps.

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RE: 1st Panzer Army AAR

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The Stavropol pocket was cleaned up.

The weather is holding for now, but that probably just means I'll get two mud turns in a row soon. The converted rail lines will be up by turn 7 and will reach Cherkesk on turn 8.

Fuel reserves have dropped substantially, I ended with a bit over 9000 fuel on turn 5. Still a long way from 0, but the trend is visible.

The AI didn't try to rescue its two pocketed units this turn.

My losses are mounting, although they're still below 1000. The auto entrenchment rules and the fairly decent Soviet individual unit quality mean the Soviets will generally kill 100 men during many attacks, so I keep the number of attacks during a turn as low as possible.

I've also lost a number of AFV's, although I think replacements cover most of the losses thus far aside from halftracks. Even though halftracks have a bonus to avoid destruction, they do get hit quite often.

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RE: 1st Panzer Army AAR

Post by Redmarkus5 »

ORIGINAL: krupp_88mm

The one thing that i think the ai could use improvement on is holding cities and objectives.. it just seems to prioritize surviving its units at the expense of loosing the game or having your units tied down for a few more turns delaying making it too easy to force the ai to just walk out of the way. Might be nice if you could make the ai leave a unit or two behind in difficult terrain especially cities.

For small scenarios, I agree, but in a long Full scenario, it's probably better if the AI concentrates on preserving its forces and keeping an intact front line, at least until it gets pushed back to the really key final objectives like Stalingrad, Baku, etc.
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RE: 1st Panzer Army AAR

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ORIGINAL: british exil

ComradeP, thanks for the AAR. Was a nice read. Keep up the good work and press on to the next scenario.

Just a few questions? Do you carry on with the same units for the next scenario?
And how steep is the learning curve?

Which game should I start out with? WtP or Case Blue?


Mat

WtP is a good way to get an understanding of the game mechanics, although I regard DC:CB as much more sophisticated and a better overall experience.

If you are new to games of this type and can afford to buy two, then starting with WtP wont hurt. However, the East Front has different challenges and DC:CB has some smaller scenarios to help you practice.
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RE: 1st Panzer Army AAR

Post by british exil »

Comrade thanks for your answering.

I've read all the threads, as I had yesterday free. Will purchase next week once my cc bill comes through.
The forum has convinced me that I "need" this game. Just have to convince the enemy with whom I live together. Yeah the GF. Although she doesn't really complain if I also spend time with her.

Keep the reports coming from the frontline, those at home are enjoying the news.

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RE: 1st Panzer Army AAR

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Mud.

Pyatigorsk has been sort of encircled with a loose encirclement.

The 17th Cavalry Corps was destroyed.

My losses are now at 1000 men.

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RE: 1st Panzer Army AAR

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Pyatigorsk was captured.

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RE: 1st Panzer Army AAR

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Mozdok is in sight.

Maikop is slowly being encircled.

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RE: 1st Panzer Army AAR

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Turn 10 end - victory.

I didn't want to fight for Mozdok as even though only North Caucasus Front HQ was there, it was entrenched and it would have cost me some men. I won on VP's by capturing two more towns and Maikop.

I got lucky with the weather, but in the end more mud would only have bought the Soviets an extra turn or two or not even that: Frontline units got about 2/3 to 3/4 AP's after turn 6 or so until the rail lines became operational. If the units would've been closer to the rail lines, their AP's would've been higher.

The AI's main mistake was keeping way too many units in the northeastern part of the map. Its defense of the Maikop area was capable and if it had not moved 17th Cavalry Corps forwards, capturing Pyatigorsk would've been more difficult.

My losses were 1010 men. Soviet losses were about 42.000 men, the vast majority of which came from pockets.

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RE: 1st Panzer Army AAR

Post by Keunert »

Comrade how many tries do you need to get these perfect results? you make the linked campaign look like a piece of cake but i guess most players will have a hard time getting to the end of the campaign.
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RE: 1st Panzer Army AAR

Post by ComradeP »

Not many, it's mostly a matter of movement. I go for what I view as a good turn 1 which takes a few tries, but I don't reload every single step to make something happen in later turns.

There's not a lot of combat mostly, and it's a war of movement. I can only "manipulate" AP's by playing Speed cards but other than that I mostly move forces around.

How far a unit can move with its AP's isn't variable (as in: you get an X amount of AP's and the only way to raise those is with a Speed card), so aside from my casualties being on the low side due to the turn 1 and avoiding combat, these results should be more or less reproducable (although that would depend on AI action, naturally).

As soon as more combat becomes necessary, things will become more difficult. Things have mostly been going this well because I'm moving around enemy concentrations, let them be out of supply for a few turns and then attacks. I very rarely attack any non-encircled unit.

It was also by no means easy to achieve this, it does require some effort and planning.

Also don't forget that:

-I have 4 extra divisions.
-The AI had only the 51st Rifle Division between Pyatigorsk and Mozdok.
-Capturing Mozdok isn't necessary.
-I had less mud than I should have had on average.
-The AI had a good motorized Rifle division in the northwest that could've been at Maikop.

Without those extra divisions, and with more enemy troops in the Pyatigorsk-Mozdok sector and with Mozdok being a required objective, the scenario might very well be impossible to win.

In fact, I'd say that considering my turn 1 move and extra divisions, it is praise of the difficulty of the scenario that I won on turn 10.

I initially thought I might even win by turn 6, but enemy resistance stiffened. I was within 5 hexes of Maikop by turn 5., but it still took me until turn 10 to capture the place

The first scenario wasn't too challenging after the opening, but this one was a challenge, one of the most challenging scenarios I've played recently.
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RE: 1st Panzer Army AAR

Post by Blind Sniper »

Thanks for the AAR [:)]
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