Basic info on War in the West 43-45

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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Joel Billings
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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45

Post by Joel Billings »

There will be campaign scenarios that start with the invasions pre-set in Sicily (July 43) and Normandy (June 1944). There will also be campaigns that start a month earlier where the players can set different invasion targets and will have time to soften up the defenses via air attacks (on airfields, railyards and units). There are Amphib HQs that when stacked with ground units in a port can be given invasion targets. They build up invasion prep points over time and these prep points reduce the casualties taken during the invasion. Norway and Sweeden are not included in the game, and Greece and the Balkans are off limits for Allied ground units. Also, Spain and Switzerland are neutral and off limits.
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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45

Post by invernomuto »

Will you accept beta testers for WITW?
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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45

Post by Joel Billings »

We periodically add new testers. Right now, we are still in very early pre-alpha testing. It's not much gaming. Mostly testing specific functions or reviewing data, while learning the new rules. I expect we will be looking for some new testers very soon. This early testing is not easy, but it can actually be where you can have the most impact on things if you can provide feedback when it's still early in the process and relatively easy to make changes. If you are interested, you can send an email to 2by3@2by3games.com and give a brief history of your wargaming and testing experience and why you're interested in testing WitW. Also, be sure to say whether you've played WitE, and if so, what if anything you'd like to see improved in WitW.
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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45

Post by randallw »

Can the risk to leaders be changed ( from the current WitE ), with a chance of them being wounded ( and a randomized length of time before they are healed and ready for action again ) instead of just outright death?
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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45

Post by Joel Billings »

Anything is possible. We had this kind of thing in War Between the States. I don't know if it will be done in WitW because it's a lower priority item.
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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45

Post by Schmart »

Joel,

Any plans to open up the editor for WitW (and by extension WitE 2.0) a little bit? I know a lot of stuff has been hardcoded, but opening it up a bit may encourage more community created mods/scenarios, unless that's not quite the developers' vision.
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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45

Post by Joel Billings »

There are more things going into the editor, but I can't think of any hard code items moving to the editor. You're welcome to mention specifics in case it's something we end up having time for.
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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45

Post by Schmart »

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

There are more things going into the editor, but I can't think of any hard code items moving to the editor. You're welcome to mention specifics in case it's something we end up having time for.

I was specifically thinking along the lines of a historical Soviet reinforcement schedule. To be able to create this in the editor would require a little more leeway in regards to specifying unique TOE upgrade paths, changing unit names/designations on specific dates, etc.
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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45

Post by JeffroK »

It's sad to see this game being so well advanced.

I've played wargames for close to 40 years and include GG's West Front offering, SPI & DG's CWITE and support most of the concerns of IronDuke about the limited scope being offered.

I support the comments that the scale and scope of the game is wrong.

I would be happier to see 8-10km per hex with Division, Brigade/Regiment, Battalion sized units covering Western Europe including Poland

France 40/France 44 as the main TO
Poland 39 as a tutorial scenario.
Italy 43-44 as a scenario. (As a stand alone it is an interesting campaign)


I've played wargames for close to 40 years and include GG's West Front offering, SPI & DG's Board and CWIE and support most of the concerns of IronDuke about the limited scope being offered.

The only way I could understand it is if the Axis player was controlled by the AI and it was a a "beat elmer" approach.

What are we missing out on?

The whole Axis plan to occupy Western Europe!!

When do you attack Denmark?
Should I take Norway, will the West occupy it and interdict my iron ore supply and lock the kriegsmarine into the North sea?
Can I get in place for an attack on France in '39, or do I wait for '40.
Scleiffen Plan, or theough the Ardenne?
Will Vichy be an advantage or do I occupy all of France?
Balkans campaign or take Spain and Gibraltar?
Where & when do the Allies head back to Europe?

I would want enough of a Naval system to allow for Narvik, the Med and the Atlantic, not at WITPAE level but better than offered in DG's CWIE.
The same for the air, better than CWIE but less than EDBTR.

I get the feeling that we will be offered a good 1990 game, rather than one using the ability of computers of the 2010's

PS An editor is a must, funny how the best GG offerings were substantially improved by the efforts of private developers.

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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45

Post by Aurelian »

The scale and scope of SPI's WITE, WiTW, WiEu were 20 miles/hex and division/corps scale. And they worked just fine.

No reason the scale chosen won't work either. And it isn't going to change anyway.

And we're not, IMHO, missing out on "the whole Axis plan to occupy western Europe."

One of the complaints about WiTW was that for two years, the Axis did just that. Occupied France, Benelux, Scandaniva, the Balkans.

Then their army gets sucked into Russia, and they have little to do outside of bouncing around North Africa waiting for the inevitable Allied invasion.
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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45

Post by tiger111 »

Any chance of a couple of ingame screenshots (however basic/alpha) so that we can see what we`ve been speculating about please?

Will the game cover Denmark,Norway,Italy and N Africa?
I think 10 miles/hex is fine (won`t change anyhow). Just please sort out the Air dimension.
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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45

Post by Joel Billings »

Game starts in summer 43 with the invasion of Sicily so it includes Italy. It does not include Norway but Denmark is included. The air game is totally different. I've posted some alpha map screenshots in the past, but it will be awhile before we post more (too much in flux). The 10 mile scale is set in stone for all games in this series so really no point discussing it. The air game is in effect a game in itself which should allow the simulation of the strategic and tactical air war in Europe (although with weely turns we're not talking about Bombing the Reich resolution).
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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45

Post by aclements »

[8|] i think the wiw map will work out fine for what i have seen so far we have to realise the allies in the west only faced approx

24% of the german armed forces and from june 1944 it took them from france to germany 11 months so there is plenty of scope for a operational game
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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45

Post by Zemke »

Half the scale, half the time, and I think it can work, otherwise this is going to be very hard. But hey, in fairness I wanted half the scale and half the time for WitE too, along with an option to manage production.
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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45

Post by Aurelian »

Half scale/time isn't going to happen.

You're not going to get the big breakthroughs you get in the East.

That's just the way it is. Geography is a pain.
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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45

Post by jnpoint »

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Our next game will be War in the West 43-45 which will be the same scale as WitE and will include a more robust air game with the land campaigns and strategic bombing. After that we plan on War in the West 40 (which will include Norway, France, England and the Med, and add a new detailed naval system) and War in the West 41-42 which will focus on the Med. War in the West 43-45 will have campaigns that start in the summer of 43 and the summer of 44, as well as shorter scenarios. We have an alpha map for all of Europe (including the Soviet Union to east of the Urals), North Africa and the Middle East). We plan to use this map to eventually produce a WitE 2.0 which would fit in with the War in the West products and allow us to fill in a complete War in Europe. Of course, this will take many years.

Most of this information has been given out before in various forum posts, but I wanted to post this again to clear things up. I'm sure many of you have questions about the details, but I'd ask you hold those questions and let us focus on development. We'll give you more information in the future as we move along in development and you'll have plenty of time to ask questions.

I have bought a lot of war games, but have never really been satisfied until for a few weeks ago, when I bought 'war in the pacific AE'. That is a fantastic game, and I will not be buying a war game for a long time.
Then I saw this post - 'a complete war in europe', and it seems to be based on some of the same ideas as witp. I'll wait for just that one!
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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Game starts in summer 43 with the invasion of Sicily so it includes Italy. It does not include Norway but Denmark is included. The air game is totally different. I've posted some alpha map screenshots in the past, but it will be awhile before we post more (too much in flux). The 10 mile scale is set in stone for all games in this series so really no point discussing it. The air game is in effect a game in itself which should allow the simulation of the strategic and tactical air war in Europe (although with weely turns we're not talking about Bombing the Reich resolution).

When wite is over hauled will the air war be the same as witw is now?

wite air war really is a non factor basicly nothing like history. The LW wiped out many russian tank formations solo.

The LW was why the german army with far less equipement and infurior tanks, artillary ect ect and crushed the French,English and Russians for 3 yrs.

The combine arms part of wite is really lacking. I know you guys did the best you could, but the LW should be able to single handed wipe out russian formations.

In the west there were several times the USAF wiped out German resistance. Terrain is huge for sure.

The LW was the spearhead of the german army, once they lost control of the air the gig was up.
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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45

Post by Great_Ajax »

The airwar is already getting a massive overhaul which was sorely needed. You now have an air directive planner in which you can assign your air armies different mission types such as interdiction, strategic bombing, airfields attack, recon, etc. You can pick specific airgroups if you like. It is nothing like WitE, which is a good thing. Lots of good ideas coming from the group to get this right and a lot of good ideas. Pavel is on top of it.

Trey

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Game starts in summer 43 with the invasion of Sicily so it includes Italy. It does not include Norway but Denmark is included. The air game is totally different. I've posted some alpha map screenshots in the past, but it will be awhile before we post more (too much in flux). The 10 mile scale is set in stone for all games in this series so really no point discussing it. The air game is in effect a game in itself which should allow the simulation of the strategic and tactical air war in Europe (although with weely turns we're not talking about Bombing the Reich resolution).

When wite is over hauled will the air war be the same as witw is now?

wite air war really is a non factor basicly nothing like history. The LW wiped out many russian tank formations solo.

The LW was why the german army with far less equipement and infurior tanks, artillary ect ect and crushed the French,English and Russians for 3 yrs.

The combine arms part of wite is really lacking. I know you guys did the best you could, but the LW should be able to single handed wipe out russian formations.

In the west there were several times the USAF wiped out German resistance. Terrain is huge for sure.

The LW was the spearhead of the german army, once they lost control of the air the gig was up.
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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45

Post by Peltonx »

closer to witp?

Sounds great.

WitE is a great game, but I am sure the 2by3 guys will make witw 2x as good as wite.
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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45

Post by paulk205 »

I have found this discussion very interesting. I don't post here regularly (about a post a year) but I have been a player of the original SSI games in the early 90s. The WF campaign was very enjoyable, although simply by historical construction the Allies had a far more sweeping scale in their operations. An integral part of the game was that you could prep another beach for invasion (the game had an abstracted logistical/naval support point system, and the more you prepped the more of those points you got up to a maximum). The same held for airdrop zones. So, you could conceivably switch to Pas-de-Calais or Brittany (or even North Italy), although it would mean wasting time and moreover the Normandy staging areas were close together providing better mutual support. That of course gave the chance to the Germans to seal the peninsula off as IRL. The Germans OTOH were restricted by a political points system that restricted troops from inactive HQs to rush to the threatened beach-heads (usually Normandy). The scale was smaller than the 50 miles of Second Front (WIR came later), and the turns were for 4 days instead of a week.

I always found it a very enjoyable game that simulated the historical set-up very well: the advantages of sticking to Normandy; the logistical nightmare for the Germans due to the bridge interdiction campaign that isolated both fronts and Normandy in particular, forcing the player to string as many units along railways as possible; the impossibility of "throwing the invasion back to the sea" since you came up against the 25,000 artillery pieces of the naval squadrons; the crucial fronts around Avranches and Caen to maintain the seal on the front; the hard, inglorious slog up the mountains of Italy; the rush to capture as many bits of Germany before the Russians. Its problems were the 1991-vintage AI which was trivial to outsmart and the fact that the war in the west is by definition not as thrilling epic -for the wargamer- as that of the East. I think that it's more than fair enough for the current developer to want to update WF to the technology of today just like they did with my favourite game from that era, SF/WIR (and I was more of a SF fanatic in fact, despite its paleolithic AI).

Of course I do have my pet peeves. I loved the old style "plot-combat resolution" system for land combat. It gave an "operational" feel to things, a sense of war plans being set up and then crashing to ruin (or perhaps exceeding expectations) in practice. The IGOUGO system of WITE is completely unlovable and destroys immersion for me. But that's personal. The second thing is more of a desire to have a western front game from 1939 to 1945, including North Africa. I agree with the developer here who mentioned that the war then was mostly naval, but still it's one game that I would love to play. But not to include the East Front; not only is this way too huge a scale (like the simulation of every bloody rowboat in WITP, which is the reason I didn't get into that game either) but it also destroys the "race-against-time" feel for the allied player: grab as much of Europe before your ally coming from the other side.
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