War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

[ny59giants]

Using the extended map, Abadan is not connected to any other off map bases.

Getting those 1700 supplies per day to Karachi may be a problem.

[Canoerebel]

1/29/42
 
NoPac:  Stricken CL Raleigh takes three torps from a sub and goes under.  The Japanese are landing at Bella Bella on the Canadian coast.  The Allies are reconfiguring some ground units including sending a US Army battalion and combat engineers to Victoria (rather than to Coal Harbor, which I had tried thrice).  Vancouver will get a big US armored divsion that had been stationed at San Fran.  QE is almost back to LA. She needs some time to repair SYS damage but should have time in about a month for one more sprint to Oz carrying another element of USA 27th Div.

Oz:  Most of the UK Division is ashore in Perth.  A battalion of 27th Div. plus tanks are at Melbourne.

DEI:  The Japanese take Semereng and the Allied defense of Java is getting rolled up steadily towards Soerabaja.

Bay of Bengal:  The reinforcements slated for Diego Garcia, Attu and Socatra are enroute.  Force Z is retiring to Colombo to refuel and deal with light repairs.  The OZ division aboard transports is awaiting a final decision about placement - likely western Sumatra, but I want Force Z as an escort to handle the threat of DD raiding forces that have been in the region.  Some reinforcements to the two Indian bases on the coast north of Bombay.  Any conceivable threat is so distant as to be almost unimagineable, but "just in case."

China:  Steve is inquring about my thoughts on IJ strat bombing in China.  I'm opposed to this, which I've explained to him.  Right now the Allies MLR in China seems fairly secure and stable, but this could certainly become a priority target for Japan as soon as Clark Field is handled.

Philippines:  No attack at Clark today.  Eight IJ divsions are committed and rather bloodied now, but should be sufficient to take the base soon.  I'd say holding Clark into early February against a commitment of this magnitude is pretty good.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

castor brings up some excellent points, and since my game vs. Canoe was cited, I'll weigh in.

I don't get the panic here, either. I am very interested to see what PH makes of this Northern Expedition, but my first reaction was that it's a big investment in a sideshow. Actually invading the West Coast would be doing you a favor, with all the Restricted units you can use, plus the 6 divisions or so you get extra as unrestricted reinforcements. He can bomb Seattle, which is the main concern; but I think he needs Victoria to do that effectively, and I think landing on that row triggers the big reinforcement. Conducting a major bombing operation from Coal Harbor isn't easy; he can use sweeps over Seattle to really knock down alot of your fighters, but you have tons of fields to run B-17s from, with ample AV support, to keep Coal Harbor in check.

He will have to keep an air presence, CVs or otherwise, in the Gulf of Alaska to prevent you from raiding his supply lines with DDs and whatnot. The supply line to Coal Harbor is pretty narrow.

Once Seattle is secure, and you are confident he isn't launching an air campaign, I wouldn't bother with a major effort to re-take Alaska. Why do you need it? Other than to threaten the Kurlies, you don't. And, as you get closer to 1944, it will become a huge trap for Japan. At that point, you could just land in the Aleutians, and isolate whatever is left in Alaska. If he has evacuated, retaking it will be easy.

The main impact is that I do see it diverting a good chunk of your air strength, and retarding your training program a bit, as the Restricted Air units that are normally just training are on extra duty. Even here, though, alot of the air strength you are committing will be units that are stuck on the West coast anyway, including P-38s.

I also agree with castor on Hawaii: Against a good opponent, there is no chance. Pearl Harbor starts with a pile of Engineers, 2 Infantry Divisions, and enough CD guns to make any landing expensive. The only viable airbase to control the Hawaiin skies is Lahaina; everything else requires too much time to build.

Australia is also impossible vs. a good opponent. Moving the San Diego Marines there is a good idea early, as well as some Marine air and extra units, especially fighters. But it shouldn't take a ton. The Aussie Militia units are OK, if they are set to digging right away. In this game in particular, the IJN is needed to cover the Gulf of Alaska; he can't do that, AND cover Australia.

India is much more vulnerable. The Indian Army starts out in terrible shape, and the RAF is very weak early, with inadequate replacements for everything. It's also a very short hop from Singapore, and doesn't require much Naval commitment once you are ashore (unlike Australia, which will require CONSTANT IJN commitment).

If he makes another move, I think it will be India, because you can pull that off as Japan without a big naval commitment. I don't think the IJN can cover both North Pacific, AND Australia; too much sea to cover, too far apart.

Actually the Aleutian chain was very easy for me to take back in a winter campaign in 1943. Using LSTs the Allies can just leapfrog to un-held or lightly held zero port bases of which there are a lot. These can be built up and used to support the next leap and to cut off major Japanese bases. As soon as spring weather hit, I invaded the few major Japanese strongholds and it was over. I should not have been able to do it but it was remarkably easy. Winter weather really did not hinder my air ops much.

[GreyJoy]

Don't get me wrong guys but i think you're all too overconfident about the allies' ability to defend India against a fully-committed opponent.
Let's try to work on an hypotesis....
 
....what if Steve has stripped all of china and Manchuria from his tanks rgts....what if Steve would completely forget about china and accept the idea of leaving japanese perimeter as it is right now....
Say he takes Clark right now.... say in one month he's able to get singa....
By April he should be ready to assemble a great force of 8 divisions and 10 tank rgts and, with the KB as escort, bypass the whole Burma-Cylon area and land directly at Karachi.... Karachi's CDs are almost useless...believe me....and it's only a 2x bonus terrain....CR would probably have there only something like 1000 AVs...but against the KB and japanese BBs nothing can stand at this stage of war.... and the BBs can easily destroy Karachi's defences in a couple of turns...
Once Karachi is taken it's a walk in the park for the japs.
 
Rader in my game was very very close...but he didn't dare to land directly at Karachi...and that was his mistake. But i've made some tests in a sand-box game and i think it can be done.

[Canoerebel]

Steve won't be ready to invade Karchi by April.  First he has to clear some of the stepping stones (the idea that he could skip by them all and sail all the way to Karachi is ridiculuous - he's not going to steam 2,000 miles or more to a distant port with no support for the KB).  Furthermore, Karachi and Bombay will be strongly defended, so even if he brought eight or ten divisions he'd be in for a very tough time.  Invading India in late April or May against an prepared enemy doesn't sound like a recipe for success to me.

[Canoerebel]

1/30/42
 
NoPac:  Anchorage holds against another deliberate attack.  Steve has two brigades plus, yet the garrison is fighting tenaciously.  The reinforcement convoy reach Victoria and will unload tonight.
 
Luzon:  Clark Field holds against another deliberate attack.  One of the IJ divisions is now down to adjusted 20 AV.  Most of the others are between 100 and 200.  I think the base will hold into early February, though a shock attack might be enough now to overcome the defenses.

[BBfanboy]

Most of those armoured units appear to be restricted [I just did a quick scan of the units in China, not an accounting of every armoured/recon unit].
I don't know how heavy the Political Point demands are on the Japanese this early in the game, but I am sure they have had to use some to get units for the Alaska invasion. I think it would take some time to get the points to free up ten tank regiments.

[khyberbill]

and the BBs can easily destroy Karachi's

BB's only get one bombardment and then have to return to port to re-arm. Under your scenario, this would be probably be Rangoon. Against you, Radar was able to re-arm in Bombay. But you are right, he should have invaded Karachi after taking Bombay

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

CR, now that I have had a look at the map again, Coal Harbour does not seem a great place to make a defensive stand because its development potential is only 3/4. Victoria and Vancouver on the other hand can go to 9/8 and are mostly there already. Maybe those troops for Coal Harbour should go to one of those locations and your B-17s should go to work on the bases PzJH is trying to build up?

Coal Harbour is a lot better in CR's hands than becoming a base for Netty.

IMHO.

PH is trying something different in his Alaska holiday, I cant see it as anything but a very expensive diversion, it shouldnt get him anywhere as long as every possible approach is covered.

OZ should soak up too many IJA units, but taking the NT should get the attention of most of the Australian Army so could be efficient. The AIF & CMF (plus 27 Div) are less of a threat defending Alice Springs and Cloncurry than pushing up through the DEI, Solomons or New Guinea.

A massive invasion of Karachi would only be likely if PH wasnt interested in a game and was only trying things out. The IJN is OK for landing a Division or 2 but carrying enough force that far is I believe, beyond its capability. Add to this he must go through some "choke points" where your subs could be effective, plus a reasonable surface fleet of the RN which in the least would soak up ammo and sorties in being put down.

I think you need to use Tracker and do a proper intel check on his IJA Divs & Bdes, work out what units are available and find out where they are, CV are not going to take bases, Divisions can.

[Canoerebel]

1/31/42
 
A quiet day (always good for the Aliles this early in the war), so let's review the situation by theater through the end of the first seven weeks of the war:

NoPac:  Steve has taken plenty of bases and sunk a BB and a CL.  Nearly all of his little operations have taken much longer than expected (Anchorage, in particular).  I think he intends to establish major air bases for a strat bombing campaign, but he is moving much more slowly than he should be, which probably means that wasn't planned at the start of the war.

CenPac:  The Japanese strike at Pearl Harbor wasn't all that impresive.  The Allies still have five damaged BB in port, since West Coast currently isn't particularly safe.  Arizona is en route to East Coast shipyards.  Eight fighter squadrons have been moved out and to (or on the way to) West Coast.  South of Pearl, Japan hasn't done much at all, aside from taking a couple of undefended islands.

SoPac:  It's been quiet here, too.  The Allies are building as a main base a port north of Tahiti.  I forget it's name, but it's something like "Rotissary Chicken."  No enemy incursions here, so Fiji and Pago Pago are quiet.

SWPac:  No moves towards Port Moresby, Lunga, or Luganville yet.  Very desultory moves to and then around Rabaul and Lae.

Oz:  The enmy has committed light forces around Darwin and the offshore islands.  Nothing yet to indicate he's "all in" for Oz, though I'm looking for him this way.  18th UK Division is at Perth, 27th/A USA Div. at Melbourne.  Lots of USAAF fighter squadrons are inbound from Capetown.

DEI:  Steve made quick leaps early to seize Palembang, Balipapan, Singkawang, MaKassar, Ambon and Lautem.  He's hasn't gotten Koepang or Sabang, and he hasn't even crossed the causeway to invest Singapore.  The Allies have decent defenses at these bases plus Cocos Island.  Steve should have all of Java by the end of February.  The Allies may reinforce western Sumatra to make a stand.

Philippines:  Steve has committed eight division to the seige of Clark Field.  A series of failed shock attacks messed up the Japanese Army.  This has turned into a tar baby.  Steve should shake it loose soon and take the base.  He had better, or this will have turned into the Midway and Guadalcanal of this game.

Bay of Bengal:  No enemy moves here yet.  The Allies have reinforced Port Blair, Diego Garcia, Attu Atoll and Socatra, so no freebies here.

Burma:  Japan hasn't committed much and is making but slow progress against very weak opposition.

China:  The Chinese have landed some effective counter punches and have established the MLRs in good order.  Steve is currently feeling out these strong points and will eventually focus on a main vector of attack (or two).  Right now things in China "feel" good.

Summary:  Steve is an experienced, aggressive and gifted player, but thus far he seems a bit disorganized and uncertain.  He's landed plenty of punches, but none yet have staggered his foe.  It's early yet, but in trying to feel out my opponent I've survived the first two months of the war in pretty good shape.

[GreyJoy]

If i was steve i'd go for india. Nopac is a suicide and it's too late for oz....but i think he still has time to conquer india if he committs everything on this gamble....but for sure ruining his divisions at clark won't help...

Keep an eye on India CR! And keep a strong garrison at Karachi

[princep01]

It's fun to listen to this discussion of what the Japs will do next, but against the realities of the real Japanese capability, it is all absolute fantasyland. The game developers just could not accept the fact the Japs just did not have the lift capability after the first 3 months to launch much in the way of large amphibious efforts. Coupled with the constant bickering between the Army and Navy about follow on objectives, it is remarkable that they even launched Midway. But for Adm. Yamamoto threating to resign (he wanted to draw the US Cvs intro a "decisive battle") it would not have happened.

The game just allows the Japs way too much latitude regarding available shipping. Outside the three-four month window when they had almost the whole of Japan's available shipping to carry out their pre-war plan, they were reduced to about 30-35% of that shipping after that or watching their economy collaspe.

While it is fun to play this what if game, and I love its rich detail, there was NO CHANCE at all that Japan could have invade NW India, Anchorage or Western Canada. Those targets in real life were a total pipedream, but in WitPAE, all are very doable.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

If i was steve i'd go for india. Nopac is a suicide and it's too late for oz....but i think he still has time to conquer india if he committs everything on this gamble....but for sure ruining his divisions at clark won't help...

Keep an eye on India CR! And keep a strong garrison at Karachi

I don't think NoPac is suicide.....an attrition air war in 1942 with Scen 2 favors Japan, actually, and he can score a bunch of points over Seattle. But I do agree India should be a tempting target. I would expect it, in fact, except for the pile of guys at Clark.

I am playing Steve in another game, as Japan, and I do agree he is a very capable opponent. If he has a weakness, it's over-aggressiveness; he's lost 2 USN CVs vs me, and it's 1/15/42. He'll risk forces that are important, good or bad.

[GreyJoy]

Don't know Q-Ball...he can destroy some industries in Seattle for sure...but he will have to committ a huge part of his air force in a theatre which is far away from all the other important theatres...and CR could use all his restricted squadrons he has in USA...fighting over his own soil... which means lots of new aces for CR and lots of dead pilots for Steve...
India, on the other hand, remains a doable target to be conquered (even if i admit that it's not a cakewalk, not even under the best circumstances)...
 
My experience is for sure blured by my inexperience when i fought that battle...but i really felt impotent in India in front of what the evil empire could throw at me...
 
In my game Rader, after the fall of Singapore (by the end of Feb) invaded Akyab and Cox Bazar on the 12th of March....and by the 14th he had 92 units at Cox Bazar marching towards Chittaong....with 750 planes already based at Akyab-Cox Bazar....during those same days Japan was conquering Port Moresby and most of the Solomons with 300 AVs....
 
by the end of March the KB was raiding the sealanes to-from Karachi and landing at Scoodra and Diego Carcia, while 100 units were spreading in the plains around Dacca... with more than 400 bombers and 500 fighters he was able to destroy and annihilate any attempt of resistance i was trying to put in place....his tanks seemed invincible and my air forces coulnd't stop those incredible masses of attacking planes....there was no place to hide...
 
Steve is still in time...the end of March is still pretty far away from now. If he concentrates all his air force in Luzon i'm pretty sure he can take Clark pretty easily, even with his battered army...then Singa will be an easy prey...always using his whole IJAFF forces obviously... March or April doesn't, imho, make any real difference...Japan has the strenght and the naval capacity (if concentrated) to carry on and accomplish the task...if he choses to go directly for the throat (say Karachi) i think it can be done.
 
In that case, my only suggestion would be to remember the "200passes-rule" against the KB. Concentrate all the allied CVs and make a suicide attack against the KB. Don't bother about CAP...send all the escorts you have into a single massive wave....150 escorts and 150 bombers will be able to completely destroy the KB, no matter how much CAP he has or how good his pilots/planes are compared to allied ones... once the 200 passes have been reach (and say 150 allied escorts and 50 bombers are in flame) the 100 survived bombers will do the job...and, without the KB guarding the sealanes, it will be only a matter of time.
If i had known this rule before i would have tried the CV-suicide attacks in 1942...and i think this IS the winning strategy.

[ny59giants]

The problem for the Allies in 42 is the shortage of airframes, not pilots IMO. P-39s, P-40s, and F4F-4s come to slightly less than 120 per month. So you can lose 4 per day on average. You get a few more as some air groups that are withdrawn have the pilots and airframes go back into the pool. By fighting in the North Pacific, Steve is forcing Dan to fight with his limited number of fighter airframes.

[Canoerebel]

Based upon everything I've seen and know about the game I think it will be most difficult for Steve to prevail in an air war over CONUS if he is flying at any distance whatsoever. Alot of what I surmise comes from my experience in my game with Q-Ball, in which he employed much of the IJ airforce in India against the very limited numbers of RAF fighters supplemented by a few American fighter squadrons. The Allies did very well.

There are differences, I realize. In a Strat War campaign, every raid that gets through is going to damage something important - like aircraft factories - so that Japan can do damage and score points even while ultimately coming out short on the battle off attrtition.

Proximity will be key. I don't think there is any way Japan can do anything worthwhile from bases as distant as Annette Island and Alliford Bay. Steve has to take Coal Harbor and probably either Victoria or Vancouver. Doing the latter two will take a great deal of time due to the strength of the Allied garrisons.

If I see any indication that Steve is going to cross me up and move on India rather than Oz, I have the shipping necessary to move 18th UK Div. plus the American fighter squadrons in Oz to India. It would be incumbent on me to recognize the peril in time to accomplish the transfer before a blockade could be set up. I think I can do this.

Watching the KB and where the eight IJA divisions currently at Clark Field go is going to be key for me.

[Gary D]

CR;

Do you have a “feel” yet for how significant the “historical USN torpedoes off” setting is impacting your game?

Has it affected your thoughts or how you are employing the USN submarines that are impacted?

Thanks!

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

If i was steve i'd go for india. Nopac is a suicide and it's too late for oz....but i think he still has time to conquer india if he committs everything on this gamble....but for sure ruining his divisions at clark won't help...

Keep an eye on India CR! And keep a strong garrison at Karachi

I don't think NoPac is suicide.....an attrition air war in 1942 with Scen 2 favors Japan, actually, and he can score a bunch of points over Seattle. But I do agree India should be a tempting target. I would expect it, in fact, except for the pile of guys at Clark.

I am playing Steve in another game, as Japan, and I do agree he is a very capable opponent. If he has a weakness, it's over-aggressiveness; he's lost 2 USN CVs vs me, and it's 1/15/42. He'll risk forces that are important, good or bad.

My opinion is that India is impossible for the Japanese player. If Japan wants to make a 'spoiling' attack and take eastern India to gain HI, Resources, and oil then that MIGHT work, however, I still think doing all of India is fool's errand. Not to insult---just my thoughts here. [8D]

[JocMeister]

Has anyone besides PzB ever occupied all of India?

[Canoerebel]

ORIGINAL: Gary D
Do you have a “feel” yet for how significant the “historical USN torpedoes off” setting is impacting your game?

Has it affected your thoughts or how you are employing the USN submarines that are impacted?

USN torps have been much more reliable (duh, right?). Nevertheless, Allied subs have been mostly ineffective except for a one-week splurge of victories against merchant shipping in NoPac and the Philippines. Said splurge was pretty impressive, and I think it vexxed Steve a bit and persuaded him to give more attention to his routing and escorts. However, Allies subs have not scored a real strategic kill in the game, as of yet. I'm waiting and hoping for a strike on an enemy carrier or battle wagon.