Updated Scenario: Op Mars - The Red God of War

[RedLancer]

Updated version.

Historical Overview
As Vasilevsky delivered misery and disaster to the Axis at Stalingrad, Zhukov sought to do the same to Army Group Centre. Only he didn't have the advantage of being able to launch his initial attacks against poor quality Axis allies in order to achieve a breakthrough.

Scenario Overview
This scenario seeks to recreate the Soviet Operations Mars and Jupiter. An Axis player should seek to hold on to the important towns of Rzhev, Velikie Luki, Vyasma, Vitebsk and Smolensk. The Soviet player should seek to bring about the destruction of Army Group Centre, firstly by encircling the 9th Army in the Rzhev salient (Op Mars)and then defeat 3rd Pz Army by capturing Vyasma (Op Jupiter). Can you achieve greater success than Model or Zhukov?

Scenario Length: 10 turns

[bcgames]

Sweet! Thanks Red Lancer! Glad to see you are still at it!

[Helpless]

Played a little of it yesterday. Looks really nice.

[governato]

Will definitely give it a go!

[Cavalry Corp]

Thanks very nice

[Redmarkus5]

Axis possibly a bit too strong on turn 1? I only played the first turn very quickly, but I was unable to get anything resembling the initial Soviet break-in that occurred historically. This is key to the scenario, as the Soviets' need to exploit foolishly, especially around Belji, in order to fall victim to the Axis counter-thrust.

[Redmarkus5]

Very interesting scenario. I managed to pocket 9th Army on turn 9, appropriately.

I wonder what the impact on AGC and the front in general would have been if Mars had succeeded alongside the defeat of 6th Army?

The game outcome would have quite different though, if the AI had opted to rescue 9th Army, or at least hold the pocket open with its reserves, instead of launching a major assault on VL which had little impact on my main axes of advance,

[Redmarkus5]

The above resulted in an Axis Major Victory. Maybe the capture of Vyazma should count for more, given the historical Soviet debacle that actually occurred in this sector?

[RedLancer]

Firstly thanks for the input - most of the work went into getting the right units in the right place. I'm happy to amend anything to make it more 'realistic' - I just need some clear direction like make Vyasma worth ? points. I never thought about setting points based on what really happened my rationale on objective points was based on Soviet intentions.

As to the wider issues of what would have happened if both Mars and Uranus had been successful is what is making me work on a Nov 42 - Mar 43 full eastern front scenario - based on linking this scenario with Trey's Red Army Resurgent. I am currently gathering orbat info but the in between bits are not easy to find. Any help is appreciated.

[Redmarkus5]

The whole front idea is excellent - every whole front scenario I have seen either provides a scenario commencing early '42 or early '43, but never November 42. The relationship between these two huge offensives is very important, particulalry because of the challenge it presents to the Axis player in terms of where to commit his reserves.

I don't have any OOB data for you, but would stress the importance of forcing the Soviet player to make a choice as to where to commit his strategic reserve - Mars or Uranus?

Also, I would hope that the scenario runs through to cover the Soviet pursuit in the south, post Stalingrad as well as extending to include the retreat of 4th Pz Army from the Caucasus.

With respect to your scoring for the Mars scenario, I have never built a WitE scenario, so I can only guess. However, I would say that any Soviet player who succeeds in pocketing a major Axis force has achieved a result that's better than the historical one. Not sure how you can calculate that in terms of victory points though... The point is that the historical result was an utter disaster for the Soviets.

[RedLancer]

Now that Trey has given his permission to incorporate his Red Army Resurgent scenario I am ready to start. The scenario will cover the whole front and last from mid Nov 42 - Apr 43 (with a later extension out to 45).

[governato]

Any news on this? It'd certainly be a fun scenario to play.

[RedLancer]

It's moving ahead. I have "stitched" the two scenarios together and added in the Finns, the German 2nd Pz Army and 4th Army. Currently inputting the OOB for 18th & 16th Armies. I then need to add in the Russians. I'm a bit slow at the moment as I alternate between playing and scenario writing and am currently in a playing phase.

[shermanny]

My take on this is that the Soviets have no chance with the victory conditions as they now are. And indeed, Zhukov was roundly thrashed.

There won't be any breakthroughs. If you want breakthroughs, first, put the whole mass of Soviet tank corps to ready on turn 1. Second, don't dig in the Germans very well at Belyi, Olenino, etc. Third, make the typical German infantry division about half as strong. The Germans hadn't made the center a priority, and their infantry divisions there figured to have been seriously understrength because that was the general state of affairs in November 1942.

But even those changes wouldn't give the Soviets a chance. Why, then, did the battle happen? Why was the Soviet High Command willing to keep throwing good money after bad? My guess is that they hoped for a big victory, but when that didn't happen, they figured that even just tying up German reserves was sufficient to guarantee victory at Stalingrad and that would secure victory for the war as a whole.

Victory conditions should give the Soviets a lot of points for even modest incursions into the German lines. The German player will have to use his Panzer reserves to repel these and hold the line almost right at the starting gate, and the game will become a grinding fight for possession of terrain that lies within potential Soviet reach. The historical result should count as a minor Soviet defeat. Taking and holding Velikiye Luki, and briefly taking Belyi or Olenino, ought to be good enough for that.

[shermanny]

More thoughts on how to make the game's victory logic correspond to the thinking of the opposing commanders:

Set up a little corner of the map at the bottom and give it a Russian garrison and supply. Make it a victory point. This is an abstraction for sending reserves from Army Group Center to the Stalingrad area. If the Germans do take this abstract victory location, the hex and its neighbors to a depth of 3, say, become frozen. (Taking the German divisions that stormed the point out of play).

The Russian player's main task, then, will be to prosecute his attack well enough that the German cannot safely dispense with 3, 4, or 6 Panzer divisions. (This would have to be fine tuned, of course.) Russian victory would result from one of two achievements: to smash Army Group Center and take Rzhev, Velikiye Luki, Belyi, Olenino, and some other points, assuming the Germans drew off enough force to capture AbstractObjective, or, if the Germans stand and fight, using all their Panzer reserves for the battle around Rzhev, to at least take something, somewhere, as a consolation prize.

In any case, forts should not go higher than 2 or 3. Nothing permanent along the lines of the forts of Leningrad or Sevastopol was constructed.