Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

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Kordanor
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Kordanor »

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Hrmm - I'll have to reconsider my contribution through Kickstarter. I was under the impression that it would be released DRM-free. If they are going to require the installation of spyware like Steam, then I'll wait for Razor1911 to fix that.
I guess you need to think about what options there are. It seems like what you wish is a link in the internet where you can download a game from without having an account. This is, for obvious reasons, not possible in most cases.
As you need to create an stardock account to play GalCiv2, that's also a DRM.
Personally I don't consider Steam a DRM. It becomes a DRM in the Moment, where I buy a Box and need to register on steam in order to use my product on my CD.
ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Going back to your original statement, you stated - "But if you want to "forbid" other users to use steam, not so much."
There was a reason I used ""
Discussing on that does not much sense, lets stick to the other parts.
Completely irrelevant. You are still within the same region. Europe is one region. Use your Steam key in Brazil or Japan, and that would be a relevant test of region restrictions. Or find a visiting Russian, and ask him to use the keys which he paid for at home while he's in France or Germany. See how well that works.

While I can't say that this is true or not it just makes sense. Pricing World Wide is dependent on the local wealth and standards. Prices in EU and US are higher than they are in China or Russia. If there were not region locked, that would mean that either everyone would buy in China as it's cheaper there (China pricing) or nobody would buy it in china as nobody can pay for it over there (Western Pricing).
Yes, it can be a pain in the ass, especially between US and EU, but globally it is necessary.

So my question to you: How would you like to buy your game? Why would you rather register on two small shops and buy the game there instead of buying the game in one big shop? Why do you call the one DRM and not the other?
Is a CD-Key not a DRM for you?


And my initial question/statement still stands:
-The additional option of steam would make sense (even though Solops and Kayoz said that in this case the devs would lose them as customers).
-The current price is insane :P

I was hoping for speculations like the one from WiZz It's possibility to set inadequate price for their games. Steam sets clear gradation for game pricing..
At Spiderweb they said something similar. But there it sounded more like that steam is "strongly recommending" it.
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Kayoz
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Kayoz »

ORIGINAL: Kordanor
I guess you need to think about what options there are. It seems like what you wish is a link in the internet where you can download a game from without having an account. This is, for obvious reasons, not possible in most cases.
Your assumption is completely contrary to my statements. I said - quite specifically - that
[*]I'm opposed to requiring a connection to the company servers to install the game
[*]I'm opposed to a DRM that stops my game from working because I've moved
[*]I'm opposed to a purchasing a game that will not work if the distributor goes under

With my DW copy I have burned onto a CD, I lose nothing if Matrix goes under. If I move, my game still works. If I want to install it on a computer which specifically doesn't have any Internet connection, it works.
ORIGINAL: Kordanor
Personally I don't consider Steam a DRM.
That's the whole point of Steam. You later go on to argue that Steam's region pricing and region locking are fine - though those are key elements of DRM.

I suggest you jump into the Wikipedia talk page for Steam, as the first line describes it as DRM. Then contact the numerous game review sites that identify - pro or con - Steam as DRM. And contact Forbes, as their writer is identifying Steam as DRM.

I'm not sure what you consider DRM to be, but it's clearly contrary to that of most of the Internet.
ORIGINAL: Kordanor
There was a reason I used ""
Discussing on that does not much sense, lets stick to the other parts.
You also used "deny choice". But sure - I've pointed out the absurdity of your argument. Your argument is in tatters. Let's move on.
ORIGINAL: Kordanor
While I can't say that this is true or not it just makes sense. ... Yes, it can be a pain in the ass, especially between US and EU, but globally it is necessary.
Hold on - you said above that Steam is not DRM. Yet here you assert that there is a business need for DRM and that Steam's policies are reasonable.

If Steam isn't DRM - as you state above - what the heck IS it?
ORIGINAL: Kordanor
So my question to you: How would you like to buy your game? Why would you rather register on two small shops and buy the game there instead of buying the game in one big shop?
Registration of my game to purchase it is irrelevant. That I get the game is relevant.
That I am forced to maintain a relationship with the seller long after our transaction is done (such as Steam requires) - relevant.
That the seller requires the installation of software that invades my privacy - but which I must install to use my purchase - is relevant.

If I buy my car at the Ford dealership - my business is done with them from that point. I can get my car serviced where I wish. I can make modifications as I wish. If something I do is contrary to Ford's wishes, the stick they wield is negating my warranty - but the car still works, regardless. And if Ford goes out of business - my car continues to putter away so long as I maintain it.

Oh, and Ford doesn't snoop around my car whenever it wants. Ford doesn't get to see where I drive, what I do or how I use the car.
ORIGINAL: Kordanor
Why do you call the one DRM and not the other?
Is a CD-Key not a DRM for you?
Did I ever claim that a CD-key is not DRM? No. You're fabricating or attributing statements to me that I never made.

But yes, a CD-key is DRM. I'm not entirely opposed to DRM. It's the manner in which Steam enforces their DRM which I am opposed to.
ORIGINAL: Kordanor
And my initial question/statement still stands:
-The additional option of steam would make sense (even though Solops and Kayoz said that in this case the devs would lose them as customers).
-The current price is insane :P
If I have a choice, then fine - if I can choose to buy DW without Steam's spyware and unreasonably restrictive DRM, then I have no complaint. If DW is release exclusively with Steam's spyware - then I'll take my business elsewhere. Though by your previous statements, I'm somehow imposing my choice on others...

As to DW pricing - only Erik Rutlins can answer that. I've already commented on my belief that (Matrix) they aren't helping themselves with their current pricing. But it's a free market.
ORIGINAL: Kordanor
I was hoping for speculations like the one from WiZz It's possibility to set inadequate price for their games. Steam sets clear gradation for game pricing..

Pricing and revenue split are aspects that Steam is quite silent on. I suspect that Matrix's decision not to use Steam's service has more to do with those policies - which are not published and all companies seem to be bound to NDA with.

But again - you'd have to take it up with Erik. We can only speculate.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
Kordanor
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Kordanor »

Most of the posting is nitpicking now. I wrote "Personally" and "consider"..
on the other side you approved
I agree 100%. Anyone who sells on Steam loses me as a customer.
Ditto to that.

but well, lets not go into discussions about whether the sun is always shining even if clouds are in the sky. :P

However I think you can use steam download the game and set steam to offline mode. Whether or not you can copy games straight from steam to a different folder is specific to the game itself.

You don't like steam for your reasons. I love steam for my reasons. Whether we understand each others reasons or not.

However additional options are (almost) always a good thing.
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Kayoz
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Kayoz »

ORIGINAL: Kordanor
However I think you can use steam download the game and set steam to offline mode. Whether or not you can copy games straight from steam to a different folder is specific to the game itself.

If Steam goes out of business, and my computer crashes (once again) or I buy a new computer, I can't install the games which I paid for. Offline mode is not an option for installation - which I have repeatedly asserted as one of the key elements of my distaste for Steam.

I'm not aware of any games from Steam that you can download and install locally - without connection to Steam servers to activate the game. Can you provide an example?
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
WiZz
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by WiZz »

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
I'm not aware of any games from Steam that you can download and install locally - without connection to Steam servers to activate the game. Can you provide an example?

SOTS2, for example.
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Kayoz
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Kayoz »

ORIGINAL: WiZz
ORIGINAL: Kayoz
I'm not aware of any games from Steam that you can download and install locally - without connection to Steam servers to activate the game. Can you provide an example?

SOTS2, for example.
Wrong.

SOTS2 installation requires that you install Steam and connect to their server.

If Steam goes out of business, you will not be able to install SOTS2 again. If you move to another region and buy a new computer, you will not be able to install.

I can install DW from my optical backups if I move to Brazil, Russia or the moon. I install from my files, enter my key and voila - I'm up and running. Can you say the same for SOTS2?
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
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Kayoz
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Kayoz »

ORIGINAL: Kordanor
Most of the posting is nitpicking now. I wrote "Personally" and "consider"..

Interesting how that you call it "nitpicking". Your arguments get ripped to pieces, suddenly it's "nitpicking".

You stated that my choice to not purchase a Steam-infected game is "forbidding others", that my choice "denies choice" to others. I assure you that I'm not that influential. You may safely put aside your fears. But somehow, given the fear you have of my marketing might, I'm... nitpicking.

You claim I made a statement that CD-keys are not DRM, which I refute and challenge you to point to a message where I stated what you claimed. Despite your fabricated claim, my challenge is... nitpicking?

You interpret my "ditto" comment in the most strict terms. And somehow I'm the one nitpicking?

You evade legitimate questions, you ignore comments which rip the foundations of your arguments, you apply the most strict interpretation of one word - without bothering to ask for clarification - and when that doesn't work - you try to fabricate comments.

And ... I'm the one who's nitpicking?
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
Kordanor
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Kordanor »

Wrong.

SOTS2 installation requires that you install Steam and connect to their server.

If Steam goes out of business, you will not be able to install SOTS2 again. If you move to another region and buy a new computer, you will not be able to install.

I can install DW from my optical backups if I move to Brazil, Russia or the moon. I install from my files, enter my key and voila - I'm up and running. Can you say the same for SOTS2?

Cant you copy your whole steam folder? Some years ago I moved the complete folder from C to E without any big problems (but I guess that depends strongly on the installed games). So basically you cannot backup the installer, but you could backup the installed program.
You evade legitimate questions, you ignore comments which rip the foundations of your arguments, you apply the most strict interpretation of one word - without bothering to ask for clarification - and when that doesn't work - you try to fabricate comments.
Ditto.
And ... I'm the one who's nitpicking?
That's why we are nitpicking. And these two lines represent the whole discussion which is therefore - pointless. I won't reply to these parts any further and I hope you do the same.
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: malkuth74

Steam would be better then the service they use now. Thats for sure.. At least you can download your games when you want on steam.

I can re-download from Matrix any time I want. This is a non-existent issue.

Also with the ability to still have a DVD shipped physically to my home, having to DL again becomes a complete non-issue. I just slide the DVD into my DVD-rom if for some reason I need to re-install.
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WiZz
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by WiZz »

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Wrong.

SOTS2 installation requires that you install Steam and connect to their server.

If Steam goes out of business, you will not be able to install SOTS2 again. If you move to another region and buy a new computer, you will not be able to install.

I can install DW from my optical backups if I move to Brazil, Russia or the moon. I install from my files, enter my key and voila - I'm up and running. Can you say the same for SOTS2?

You are wrong totally. SOTS2 can be launched without running steam.
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Kayoz
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Kayoz »

ORIGINAL: WiZz
You are wrong totally. SOTS2 can be launched without running steam.
I didn't say "launch" - I said "installed".

I think I was pretty clear in my use of the term install - see below:
ORIGINAL: Kayoz
ORIGINAL: WiZz
ORIGINAL: Kayoz
I'm not aware of any games from Steam that you can download and install locally - without connection to Steam servers to activate the game. Can you provide an example?

SOTS2, for example.
Wrong.

SOTS2 installation requires that you install Steam and connect to their server.

If Steam goes out of business, you will not be able to install SOTS2 again. If you move to another region and buy a new computer, you will not be able to install.

I can install DW from my optical backups if I move to Brazil, Russia or the moon. I install from my files, enter my key and voila - I'm up and running. Can you say the same for SOTS2?

Please pause to read the above section and identify how many times I used the term, "launch".
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
WiZz
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by WiZz »

I can install DW from my optical backups if I move to Brazil, Russia or the moon. I install from my files, enter my key and voila - I'm up and running. Can you say the same for SOTS2?

Yes, I can. Sots2 has no one kind of DRM. It also doesn't need register manipulation in your OS.
And it seems, that you never heard about world-wide steam keys.
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Kayoz
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Kayoz »

ORIGINAL: Kordanor
Cant you copy your whole steam folder? ... So basically you cannot backup the installer, but you could backup the installed program.
False.

Depends entirely on the game. For example, the installation may store configuration information (eg: location of files, installation of DLC, external required programs which they install during their install) in the registry. Backing up the files - the Steam folder - will not necessarily give you a working game in the event that you copy those files to a new computer.
ORIGINAL: Kordanor
You evade legitimate questions, you ignore comments which rip the foundations of your arguments, you apply the most strict interpretation of one word - without bothering to ask for clarification - and when that doesn't work - you try to fabricate comments.
Ditto.
I did not fabricate statements. You do.

I reply to your statements where I agree with them or you have a persuasive argument. You do not.

I respond to your statements accurately - for example "region" v. "country". You do not, but instead attempt to pervert my statements such that they apply favourably to your argument.
ORIGINAL: Kordanor
And ... I'm the one who's nitpicking?
That's why we are nitpicking. And these two lines represent the whole discussion which is therefore - pointless. I won't reply to these parts any further and I hope you do the same.
[/quote]
So we're back to evading legitimate questions. Pukka pie and Ford car example still stands, as well as your lack of response.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
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Kayoz
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Kayoz »

ORIGINAL: WiZz
I can install DW from my optical backups if I move to Brazil, Russia or the moon. I install from my files, enter my key and voila - I'm up and running. Can you say the same for SOTS2?

Yes, I can. Sots2 has no one kind of DRM. It also doesn't need register manipulation in your OS.

Your statement seems to conflict with statements I've found online -
This site states - "Steam will be required for installation and updates"
This post states - which asserts that Steam installation and validation is a requirement for SOTS2 installation and update. Though not to play the already installed game.

Your experience seems to be contrary to the above examples. It would be interesting to see if you can unplug your computer from the Internet and still install SOTS2.
ORIGINAL: WiZz
And it seems, that you never heard about world-wide steam keys.
No idea. I try to avoid installing spyware on my PC. I've never hears of world-wide Steam keys. How pervasive they are and whether or not they are available for ALL Steam purchases is an interesting question. Though that's outside the scope of this discussion.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
WiZz
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by WiZz »

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Your statement seems to conflict with statements I've found online -
This site states - "Steam will be required for installation and updates"
This post states - which asserts that Steam installation and validation is a requirement for SOTS2 installation and update. Though not to play the already installed game.

Ok, imagine some situation. You bought SOTS2. Downloaded it from steam. And from now I may copy game folder into any place, write on disks... In this case, Steam plays role usual fileservice. DW in digital distributes similar, right? That's why, pirates no need to crack SOTS2 every time with new patch.
No idea. I try to avoid installing spyware on my PC.

This can be easily evaded. Just not to write you real names and not input data from your credit card. [:)]
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by pmelheck1 »

Their are things I like about Steam and have library to show... Steam isn't everyone's cup of tea that's fine as well. As far as DW on Steam, If DW had approached Steam it would have never been published or it would not be DW. Steam caters to a wide verity of gamers but wargaming is dead to all but a very small number of developers and distributors. The only wargame I can think of that Steam has is the Hearts of Iron franchise and I don't necessarily consider HOI a true wargame (more of a expanded risk). Steam is looking for large sales numbers and games found at Matrix and others will never touch the games sold by Steam that cater to the what's in this week crowd. Also the level of support I've seen and experienced at Matrix is otherworldly compared to Steam.
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Kayoz
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Kayoz »

ORIGINAL: WiZz
Ok, imagine some situation. You bought SOTS2. Downloaded it from steam. And from now I may copy game folder into any place, write on disks... In this case, Steam plays role usual fileservice. DW in digital distributes similar, right? That's why, pirates no need to crack SOTS2 every time with new patch.

You're missing the critical difference - that given I back up all installation files that I can -
[*] if Steam goes out of business, I cannot install the game
[*] if Matrix goes out of business, I can install the game

The same applies above if I am installing on a computer that I do not/cannot allow access to the Internet.
ORIGINAL: WiZz
This can be easily evaded. Just not to write you real names and not input data from your credit card. [:)]
No. Steam probes your computer. Providing a false name will not protect you from their intrusive information gathering. Providing a false name violates your EULA, as well.

Though nowhere near as intrusive as Origin, Steam/Valve is far from innocent.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
WiZz
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by WiZz »

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
You're missing the critical difference - that given I back up all installation files that I can -
[*] if Steam goes out of business, I cannot install the game
[*] if Matrix goes out of business, I can install the game

The same applies above if I am installing on a computer that I do not/cannot allow access to the Internet.

So? As for me I know many places where I can get necessary data. Copy on the disk or flashdrive and transfer. You forget, that disk may be damaged or lost.
ORIGINAL: Kayoz
No. Steam probes your computer. Providing a false name will not protect you from their intrusive information gathering. Providing a false name violates your EULA, as well.

Though nowhere near as intrusive as Origin, Steam/Valve is far from innocent.

Yes, it knows my hardware specs and software. So what? My IP-address is dynamic. I don't save private info at HDD like passwords and keys. What else?
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Kayoz
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Kayoz »

ORIGINAL: WiZz
So? As for me I know many places where I can get necessary data. Copy on the disk or flashdrive and transfer. You forget, that disk may be damaged or lost.
This isn't a concern to you? All the games you bought on Steam are a complete write-off if Steam goes out of business. That is a factor I cannot control. Care of my disks, I can control.

Would you buy a car - that if the manufacturer goes out of business, and something breaks - you cannot get your car back into working condition - but you require the services of that now defunct company, to fix it? That's the case with Steam. Your computer crashes and Steam is out of business, you're sc*ewed - backups of your Steam folder may help, but there's no guarantee. With Matrix, I'm fine, so long as I've kept my backups.
ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Yes, it knows my hardware specs and software. So what? My IP-address is dynamic. I don't save private info at HDD like passwords and keys. What else?
I guess privacy isn't an issue for you.

Steam gathers FAR more than just your hardware specs. Referring to the previous article - "to improve Valve's products and online sites, for internal marketing studies, or simply to collect demographic information about Valve's users". You don't get useful marketing data or demographic information from hardware information alone.

As for your password recording practice - Valve probably doesn't care about that. Your browser history, your email contacts list, your reading preferences - that would be of great interest to their marketing department. Do you keep these off your HDD as well?
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
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ASHBERY76
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by ASHBERY76 »

Elliot and DistantWorlds will remain small just like all other Matrix devs until they release the game on steam and other online market places.The sad thing is most other Matrix games have small appeal but this game could do well with a bigger playerbase meaning Elliot could hire a full time artist,ect.
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