CAUCASUS OIL

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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buffcoat
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CAUCASUS OIL

Post by buffcoat »

I have captured Baku and the entire north cost of the Caspian (late 43) and therefore have sealed off all Soviet oil from this source.

In game terms have I achieved anything tangible that will impact the Soviets over time or have I just been enjoying myself finding something for my paratroops to do?

I daresay if I could search the forum effectively I might have found this answer, sorry if I am duplicating earlier queries.

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL

Post by elmo3 »

I believe Baku is the single largest source of oil production for the Soviets. Sections 21.1.5 and 21.2 in the manual discuss oil production and damage/repair.
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Klydon
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RE: CAUCASUS OIL

Post by Klydon »

Baku is the largest (but by no means only) source of oil.

I don't know what the "real" effect will be on the game for you as far as how much it can and should cripple the Russian war economy. A lot will depend on how much of a stockpile there is. I suspect it will be less than you may think in terms of immediate results. The German war machine didn't cease when Rumania fell, which was the Germans largest oil source.
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RE: CAUCASUS OIL

Post by Panzer Meyer »

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Baku is the largest (but by no means only) source of oil.

I don't know what the "real" effect will be on the game for you as far as how much it can and should cripple the Russian war economy. A lot will depend on how much of a stockpile there is. I suspect it will be less than you may think in terms of immediate results. The German war machine didn't cease when Rumania fell, which was the Germans largest oil source.
Germany was creating an enormous amount of synthetic fuel at that point however. It wasn't enough, even in combination with the Romanian oil fields, to fuel the entire Wehrmacht, but it certainly helped. I'm fairly certain the USSR did not have the capability to do so.
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Flaviusx
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RE: CAUCASUS OIL

Post by Flaviusx »

The reserve Soviet oil capacity was located in the USA.
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76mm
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RE: CAUCASUS OIL

Post by 76mm »

ORIGINAL: Panzer Meyer
Germany was creating an enormous amount of synthetic fuel at that point however. It wasn't enough, even in combination with the Romanian oil fields, to fuel the entire Wehrmacht, but it certainly helped. I'm fairly certain the USSR did not have the capability to do so.

But the Sovs developed other sources of oil in the Volga region, Ural Mountains, Kazakhstan and Central Asia.
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RE: CAUCASUS OIL

Post by Klydon »

ORIGINAL: Panzer Meyer

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Baku is the largest (but by no means only) source of oil.

I don't know what the "real" effect will be on the game for you as far as how much it can and should cripple the Russian war economy. A lot will depend on how much of a stockpile there is. I suspect it will be less than you may think in terms of immediate results. The German war machine didn't cease when Rumania fell, which was the Germans largest oil source.
Germany was creating an enormous amount of synthetic fuel at that point however. It wasn't enough, even in combination with the Romanian oil fields, to fuel the entire Wehrmacht, but it certainly helped. I'm fairly certain the USSR did not have the capability to do so.


The Russians did not, but they had other sources not in the Caucasus.

By the time Rumania fell, the synth industry was pretty much rubble as it was very easy to spot and very vulnerable to strategic air power. It was also pretty much top priority on the bombing list of "things to bomb" as far as the Western Allies were concerned in the rightful notion that the entire Wehrmacht would be affected, including the Luftwaffe.

Make no mistake, it would have hurt the Russians greviously to lose the oil resources there, but it would have taken awhile for it to take effect and it wasn't like the Germans were going to do anything with it either since the rail lines were a mess and the Germans didn't even have close to enough rolling stock to move it even if the rail lines were not a mess.
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RE: CAUCASUS OIL

Post by Panzer Meyer »

Quite right Klydon. A quick check of some sources reveals that by 1944 Germany was producing almost 60% of its oil and 100% of its aviation fuel synthetically. The allied bombing campaign almost completely wiped out synthetic production capacity by the fall of that same year. Coupled with the successful bombing of Ploesti and eventually the loss of Romania, Germany was literally paralyzed.

However I think a similar fate would have befallen the Soviet Union if they were to lose the Caucasus. I'll have to double check when I get home, but I am fairly certain that 80% or more of all Soviet oil production came from that region.
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RE: CAUCASUS OIL

Post by Flaviusx »

ORIGINAL: Panzer Meyer

However I think a similar fate would have befallen the Soviet Union if they were to lose the Caucasus. I'll have to double check when I get home, but I am fairly certain that 80% or more of all Soviet oil production came from that region.

Not unless Germany can park a panzer army in Texas.

Lend Lease would've made up any shortfall in oil. Although this would have come at the expense of other shipments, presumably.
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RE: CAUCASUS OIL

Post by Aurelian »

http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories/ma ... _ww22.html


Because of the crisis, the State Defense Committee decided to transfer the main forces of oil-workers and oil enterprises of Baku to the regions of Volga, Ural Mountains, Kazakhstan and Central Asia for the enforcement of the oil extraction there. In October, 1942, more than ten thousand oil workers left for these eastern parts.

All the nine drilling offices, oil-expedition and oil-construction trusts as well as various other enterprises with their staffs were transferred to an area near Kuybishev, (Russia Federation in Tartarstan near the Ural Mountains north of Kazakhstan). This city soon came to be known as "the Second Baku" as highly qualified specialists and masters in oil industry were sent there along with more than 5,000 workers as well as half of the equipment.

Despite the severe frost the drillers started searching for oil. Winter was over but spring brought torrential rains and flooding. The small river, Kinel, overflowed its banks and the water rose 3-4 meters, flooding the mouths of wells, causing considerable loss of oil. The Bakuis, who were up to their waists in the icy water, defended the wells. All in all, with such determined efforts, the new Bakuis in the region of Povolzhye, increased the fuel extraction in "Kinelneft" trust that first year by 66% and by 42% in entire region of Kuybishev.

They did it the "Bakui way" which meant not allowing the decrease of oil extraction or cessation of drilling in winter; working in winter as hard as in summer, working at night as much as in daytime; and generally increasing the oil extraction by any means possible. As a result, five new oil and gas fields were discovered and huge oil refinery construction projects were undertaken, including the first pipe line between Kuybishev and Buturslan was built that same year. The pipeline rendered a tremendous service to defense factories saving them the trouble of importing coal and mazut (black oil) from remote places.

A number of large modern oil refineries were also built in Kuybishev. But the most significant assistance that Bakuis gave was in extracting oil from the Devonian Strata in Kuybishev for the first time (June 9, 1944). This historical event marked the beginning of industrial development unprecedented in its volume. It made it possible to restore oil extraction to pre-war levels and Russia became the largest oil industry power in the entire world.
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Farfarer61
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RE: CAUCASUS OIL

Post by Farfarer61 »

So, no, Baku and Ploesti have no effect on the game that I have found. Against the Soviet AI, I even laid track and rebuilt all of Baku's facilities, but it made little difference, save perhaps to the umodelled Naval Forces.
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RE: CAUCASUS OIL

Post by johnnyvagas »

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

ORIGINAL: Panzer Meyer

However I think a similar fate would have befallen the Soviet Union if they were to lose the Caucasus. I'll have to double check when I get home, but I am fairly certain that 80% or more of all Soviet oil production came from that region.

Not unless Germany can park a panzer army in Texas.

Lend Lease would've made up any shortfall in oil. Although this would have come at the expense of other shipments, presumably.

And the United States would presumably produce a fleet of oil tankers out of thin air to bring this oil to the USSR. The United States had issues in 1942 thru early 1943 keeping its Pacific Fleet supplied with bunker fuel because of an extreme shortage of tankers. Yet the USA would apparently – under your nonsensical blathering’s about fuel and fuel supplies – have the magical capability to instantly keep the Red Army, Red Air Force and Red Industry topped off with fuel, oil, lubricants and etc. after Baku is lost? Please. You really haven't the foggiest idea as to the magitude involved with such an undertaking.
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RE: CAUCASUS OIL

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: johnnyvagas

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

ORIGINAL: Panzer Meyer

However I think a similar fate would have befallen the Soviet Union if they were to lose the Caucasus. I'll have to double check when I get home, but I am fairly certain that 80% or more of all Soviet oil production came from that region.

Not unless Germany can park a panzer army in Texas.

Lend Lease would've made up any shortfall in oil. Although this would have come at the expense of other shipments, presumably.

And the United States would presumably produce a fleet of oil tankers out of thin air to bring this oil to the USSR. The United States had issues in 1942 thru early 1943 keeping its Pacific Fleet supplied with bunker fuel because of an extreme shortage of tankers. Yet the USA would apparently – under your nonsensical blathering’s about fuel and fuel supplies – have the magical capability to instantly keep the Red Army, Red Air Force and Red Industry topped off with fuel, oil, lubricants and etc. after Baku is lost? Please. You really haven't the foggiest idea as to the magitude involved with such an undertaking.

You do know that the war in Europe was priotity #1? Doubtfull.

I don't have the exact number handy, (the book is in the car and I'm not), but between 2-3 million tons of oil was sent by lend lease.
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RE: CAUCASUS OIL

Post by Flaviusx »

Adjustments would have to be made, no doubt. But it would have happened.
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RE: CAUCASUS OIL

Post by glvaca »

I'm with the camp that capturing baku would have serious consequences for the Soviet war machine. It would certainly have put them back by years.

As others have remarked, having the crude is one thing, refining it is something else, getting it to were it can be used is again something else entirely. The logistics involved in moving huge amount of refined oil products to the Soviets are breathtaking!

It would have had serious effects, period.
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RE: CAUCASUS OIL

Post by Brandle »

Can we use the editor to adjust and limit the other sources of oil on the map to make Baku and/or Ploesti more important?

Although I have not playted German yet, it seems like we dont need any more modifications to make their life harder.
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RE: CAUCASUS OIL

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: glvaca

I'm with the camp that capturing baku would have serious consequences for the Soviet war machine. It would certainly have put them back by years.

As others have remarked, having the crude is one thing, refining it is something else, getting it to were it can be used is again something else entirely. The logistics involved in moving huge amount of refined oil products to the Soviets are breathtaking!

It would have had serious effects, period.

Maybe. But Kuybuyshev made up for it.


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RE: CAUCASUS OIL

Post by glvaca »

ORIGINAL: Brandle

Can we use the editor to adjust and limit the other sources of oil on the map to make Baku and/or Ploesti more important?

Although I have not playted German yet, it seems like we dont need any more modifications to make their life harder.

Not sure about the editor but I have my doubts. Others will be better placed to answer that.

Play the Germans first before coming to conclusions. Read the AAR's too. The Sovs don't exactly have a pick-nick in 1941! But this isn't about balance for me. More about the correct effects of a successful strategy by the Germans which deserves to be rewarded.
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RE: CAUCASUS OIL

Post by glvaca »

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: glvaca

I'm with the camp that capturing baku would have serious consequences for the Soviet war machine. It would certainly have put them back by years.

As others have remarked, having the crude is one thing, refining it is something else, getting it to were it can be used is again something else entirely. The logistics involved in moving huge amount of refined oil products to the Soviets are breathtaking!

It would have had serious effects, period.

Maybe. But Kuybuyshev made up for it.

".....As a result, five new oil and gas fields were discovered and huge oil refinery construction projects were undertaken, including the first pipe line between Kuybishev and Buturslan was built that same year. The pipeline rendered a tremendous service to defense factories saving them the trouble of importing coal and mazut (black oil) from remote places.

A number of large modern oil refineries were also built in Kuybishev. But the most significant assistance that Bakuis gave was in extracting oil from the Devonian Strata in Kuybishev for the first time (June 9, 1944). This historical event marked the beginning of industrial development unprecedented in its volume. It made it possible to restore oil extraction to pre-war levels and Russia became the largest oil industry power in the entire world."

There is quite a difference between discovering oil, and actually producing enough to replace the lost production which takes years of devellopment.
I'm not arguing the Sovs would have lost the war without Baku oil, I am saying it would have put them back for years.
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RE: CAUCASUS OIL

Post by Fishbed »

Men, do a search (if it works ^^), the topic was discussed a couple times with (in my opinion) sound arguments and numbers. The fall of Baku wouldn't have impacted Russian's fighting ability as early as you may expect (they had stockpiled a little bit...) and wouldn't have benefited Nazi Germany before quite a long, long time. In a way or another, it is not something that important from a gaming point of view considering the scale of WitE.
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