War In Europe

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RE: War In Europe

Post by bwheatley »

ORIGINAL: derstralle

I took a quick look at Wikipedia (yeah... I know [;)]).

It seems like Google maps uses a close variant of the mercator projection.
For a distance measured across a line with constant latitude the scaling factor in mercator projection is sec(phi)=1/cos(phi), where phi is the latitude.
Northern scandinavia is around 70° latitude => scaling factor of roughly 2,9.
Southern Italy is around 35° latitude => scaling factor of about 1,2.
This is quite a huge diversion.

The reason you did not notice the projection errors yet is your choiche of locations.
Oslo, Stockholm and Helsinki are at about 60° latitude => scaling factor 2.
Paris and "central" Germany are located at about 50° => scaling factor 1,5. However along the line Paris - Kopenhagen latitude is not constant hence the scaling factor is even higher. The difference is not noticable by the naked eye - at least to mine. [;)]

I hope I do not sound rude - in fact I love the idea of detailed realistic scenarios. [:)]

edit: Confused the english words for latitude and longitude. [8|]


Heh yea guess it must be google causing the issue then. Well i'm open for suggestions to "fix" it. :)
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RE: War In Europe

Post by bwheatley »

ORIGINAL: Kraftwerk

Hey if you figure that one out, copyright that idea, because if ive noticed anything in grand strategy games that encompass the whole world, its that theres no concensus on how to do that correctly. Some of the maps people have come up with have blown my mind thinking, how in the hell did they think thats what the world looks like?!

You could retire to the Camans...


Agreed it's a difficult issue to solve. :) Maybe i'll just cut those 3 countries out..who needs them. :) just kidding.
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RE: War In Europe

Post by lion_of_judah »

question: i'm thinking that this map will be all of europe at 10km is this correct and what will the unit scale be. also will the weather rules apply.....
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RE: War In Europe

Post by Jeffrey H. »

Hrrm, I wonder if I could just take one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/Replogle-Globes-I ... =8-2-fkmr0

And cut it up and lay it flat, traspose or trace the region of interest on a flat sheet of paper, then drop a hex grid on the sheet of paper ?

Hrrmm...
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RE: War In Europe

Post by Jeffrey H. »

Now this here is the absolute Mac Daddy of globes:

http://www.ultimateglobes.com/Replogle- ... -65325.htm

Nice !
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RE: War In Europe

Post by Josh »

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

ORIGINAL: Kraftwerk

Hey if you figure that one out, copyright that idea, because if ive noticed anything in grand strategy games that encompass the whole world, its that theres no concensus on how to do that correctly. Some of the maps people have come up with have blown my mind thinking, how in the hell did they think thats what the world looks like?!

You could retire to the Camans...


Agreed it's a difficult issue to solve. :) Maybe i'll just cut those 3 countries out..who needs them. :) just kidding.

LOL my thoughts exactly, didn't want to come across rude so didn't mention it hehheh. Nothing there to see except maybe a zillion trees.
Besides there's lots and lots of lakes where you can fish and swim, lots of lovely small towns with even more lovely blonde scandinavian girls, so yeah nothing worth seeing... [;)]
Without Scandinavia maps always look a bit distorted IMHO, besides it adds a great "what-if" factor, it adds the Finnish front, Murmansk, and so on. So yeah definitely keep it in.
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RE: War In Europe

Post by bwheatley »

ORIGINAL: lion_of_judah

question: i'm thinking that this map will be all of europe at 10km is this correct and what will the unit scale be. also will the weather rules apply.....

I was shooting for about 10km. I was thinking divisional scale akin to GPW. I was going to finish with the map then release that to folks who wanted to do their own thing to it.

But i was thinking just a WaW but a lot bigger scale. I wanted to include the weather system i did for WaW for AT originally. It had zone based weather that could be different and random. I had to build this with the AT classic master rules for now. Trying to add that giant map overlay with the at2 master file just caused it to OOM. I let vic know and he told me my map was just too big. So i'm working around it as best i can.
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RE: War In Europe

Post by bwheatley »

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

Now this here is the absolute Mac Daddy of globes:

http://www.ultimateglobes.com/Replogle- ... -65325.htm

Nice !

Holy hell that is a nice map lol.
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RE: War In Europe

Post by bwheatley »

ORIGINAL: Josh

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

ORIGINAL: Kraftwerk

Hey if you figure that one out, copyright that idea, because if ive noticed anything in grand strategy games that encompass the whole world, its that theres no concensus on how to do that correctly. Some of the maps people have come up with have blown my mind thinking, how in the hell did they think thats what the world looks like?!

You could retire to the Camans...


Agreed it's a difficult issue to solve. :) Maybe i'll just cut those 3 countries out..who needs them. :) just kidding.

LOL my thoughts exactly, didn't want to come across rude so didn't mention it hehheh. Nothing there to see except maybe a zillion trees.
Besides there's lots and lots of lakes where you can fish and swim, lots of lovely small towns with even more lovely blonde scandinavian girls, so yeah nothing worth seeing... [;)]
Without Scandinavia maps always look a bit distorted IMHO, besides it adds a great "what-if" factor, it adds the Finnish front, Murmansk, and so on. So yeah definitely keep it in.

Ya i'm pretty sure it will be an unused portion of the map in most cases. :) Maybe it won't who knows. Maybe a crafty allied player will attempt to ship troops to murmansk directly.

With the way ATG allows for allies to share ground its a possibility. :) I certainly fall in the camp of i want to have fun playing the game. I don't want a 100% simulation where the only things you can do are things that really happened. That's not as much fun to me.
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RE: War In Europe

Post by bwheatley »

I was thinking of modeling swedish ore for the germans as a reason at least for germany to delve up there. Also a reason for the allies to try to take it. Also taking norway will allow the germans to dedicate some air & sub power to trying to hunt down the murmansk convoys at least until the persian route gets up to speed.
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RE: War In Europe

Post by Bombur »

I was thinking that, maybe, the tech tree and SFT list we created for the GD 1938 could be useful for your scenario. I mean, if you want to create custom units and other things, it could be a good template....
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RE: War In Europe

Post by Ormand »

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

Hrrm, I wonder if I could just take one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/Replogle-Globes-I ... =8-2-fkmr0

And cut it up and lay it flat, traspose or trace the region of interest on a flat sheet of paper, then drop a hex grid on the sheet of paper ?

Hrrmm...


This obviously wouldn't work either. This is an old problem, and there is a mathematical theorem proving that you cannot "map" the surface of a curved space into a flat 2-dimensional space that is scale preserving. Thus, ALL maps have errors, they just get to be noticeable when the curvature is larger. That said, this is a bit interesting because I doubt that globe is printed when it is inflated (maybe so). But, if you tried to lay the globe flat, obviously you would have to cut the poles and there would be gaps in the projection.

That globe is nice, but ten grand!

This is an interesting problem for the maps. Basically, the issue is that the scale is changing as you move north. Thus, northern operations would be significantly altered relative to those further south. Your ships can't cover the same actual distance since they have to traverse more hexes. You can actually fix this North-South by manually making a map where the distance between important landmarks is correct North-South. You can do this because you can just place things in the map (manually). But, you can't do anything about the East-West error. How far East or West should Narvik go relative to Copenhagen depends on a compromise. The same for coasts, etc. The map will look a little odd relative to what we are used to, but would work. And moving East-West between points will take much longer than it should.

One way to get around this (but it has another problem) is to clone the terrains you are using up north, and edit the AP costs for movement. This way, as you go further north you compensate for the shifting scale by allowing troops to transverse more hexes. You don't have to change the image or anything, just clone them and edit their attributes, and use them to fill in the map up there. You might have to do this twice though in order to soften the transition. The problem of course is that you need more troops to cover the same area.

Either way, you have work to do.

p.s. is there anyway to have a revolution and stop these stupid advertisements popping up based on certain keywords, like "order"? I hate these things.
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RE: War In Europe

Post by Adam Rinkleff »

I there any way to make a map bigger than 200 hexes?
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RE: War In Europe

Post by Jeffrey H. »

ORIGINAL: Ormand
ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

Hrrm, I wonder if I could just take one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/Replogle-Globes-I ... =8-2-fkmr0

And cut it up and lay it flat, traspose or trace the region of interest on a flat sheet of paper, then drop a hex grid on the sheet of paper ?

Hrrmm...


This obviously wouldn't work either. This is an old problem, and there is a mathematical theorem proving that you cannot "map" the surface of a curved space into a flat 2-dimensional space that is scale preserving. Thus, ALL maps have errors, they just get to be noticeable when the curvature is larger. That said, this is a bit interesting because I doubt that globe is printed when it is inflated (maybe so). But, if you tried to lay the globe flat, obviously you would have to cut the poles and there would be gaps in the projection.

That globe is nice, but ten grand!

This is an interesting problem for the maps. Basically, the issue is that the scale is changing as you move north. Thus, northern operations would be significantly altered relative to those further south. Your ships can't cover the same actual distance since they have to traverse more hexes. You can actually fix this North-South by manually making a map where the distance between important landmarks is correct North-South. You can do this because you can just place things in the map (manually). But, you can't do anything about the East-West error. How far East or West should Narvik go relative to Copenhagen depends on a compromise. The same for coasts, etc. The map will look a little odd relative to what we are used to, but would work. And moving East-West between points will take much longer than it should.

One way to get around this (but it has another problem) is to clone the terrains you are using up north, and edit the AP costs for movement. This way, as you go further north you compensate for the shifting scale by allowing troops to transverse more hexes. You don't have to change the image or anything, just clone them and edit their attributes, and use them to fill in the map up there. You might have to do this twice though in order to soften the transition. The problem of course is that you need more troops to cover the same area.

Either way, you have work to do.

p.s. is there anyway to have a revolution and stop these stupid advertisements popping up based on certain keywords, like "order"? I hate these things.

I think hexes are simply inadequate at these map scales. Smaller scales without curvature effects, yes, but at "global' scales no. Ultimately, movement across the surface of a sphere is a simple problem but not one that is solveable by hexes or even distorted squares, unless each type of square has a different movement cost, which puts us right back to distortions.

The real solution is linear movement rates applied to linear paths on the surface of the sphere. With mods for terrain and any other desired effects.


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RE: War In Europe

Post by bwheatley »

ORIGINAL: Bombur

I was thinking that, maybe, the tech tree and SFT list we created for the GD 1938 could be useful for your scenario. I mean, if you want to create custom units and other things, it could be a good template....


COol thanks! with the import tools of ATG it won't be a nightmare now :)


Still making rivers..it's taken a long time and i'm sure it's not 100% correct. It's hard to find good relief maps.
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RE: War In Europe

Post by bwheatley »

Ya once i finish the map i'll look and see about making northern_XYZ lt's. That would allow more movement over them.

I might not even mess with it but i will put this up for someone else to if they were interested. I mean it's been aaa week and a half and i don't even have all rivers done yet. i'm just into the soviet union now. lol
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RE: War In Europe

Post by Bombur »


COol thanks! with the import tools of ATG it won't be a nightmare now :)

If you interested, I could make the changes for you once your map is ready.

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RE: War In Europe

Post by bwheatley »

ORIGINAL: Bombur


COol thanks! with the import tools of ATG it won't be a nightmare now :)

If you interested, I could make the changes for you once your map is ready.


Actually after dicking with it awhile it looks like the import tools would be ok.
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RE: War In Europe

Post by bwheatley »

Now the slow tedious process of getting rivers done. Lordy..does anyone have a good river reference? i've seen a few online that are ok but it's hard to get the rivers to go exactly where they are supposed to.
But we did get all the countries done along with a ton of cities in said countries. :)

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RE: War In Europe

Post by bwheatley »

Also i've put where i've gotten so far online in case anyone else wants to play with it.
It doesn't have the overlay loaded because eventually you 9/10 times get the game to crash because it has to use so much memory to load an image that size.

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