The Power of Inexperience / GreyJoy(A)-Rader(J)

[Itdepends]

Which side of Oz is Radar flying to? (I'm west coast- about 2hrs south of Perth)

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

OK, someone needs to bump this.

GJ: Are you guys receiving any joy on getting the air-to-air fixed? It would be a crime against humanity for this AAR to be stopped at this point.

Cheers,
CC

Not at all unfortunately...i think it's almost impossible to fix it without a massive testing behind any new code modifications...

I do not see any feedback in the Tech Support section that anybody to working on the problem or a plan ... [:(] Hopefully it is fixed or at least works better when I get to '44 ... or this journey will suck in a way to get so far and yet find a design bug ..

[cwDeici]

Personally I stopped reading right before the difficulties (just checking in a second and last time) because of all the one-sided HRs (and I'm not alone in this among the readers of the forum I frequent). I hope they manage to fix it up and have fun and report for those who are still reading though, of course.

Best Wishes

[TheElf]

I'll dip my toe in this as I haven't had the time to read this whole thread to do a proper analysis. But here are some thoughts. If you've read my post on themain forum :

1. We're at ludicrous speed here

2. This isn't a bug. Not to say a bug isn't involved at some level, there are always bugs, but this is clearly a design limitation. We have exceeded our Q factor with this combat.

3. Also the firing passes etc, discussion is off. This is a time/Airspace issue. When a raid is detected you are given a Time to target. That delineates when a raid is first detected. The only CAP that can react to that raid immediately are those that are airborne. The rest have to scramble with associated delays to get to the bombers. If they dont do it in the time alotted then guess what...Ka-Blammo (tm)!!!!!

4. To those who say "this needs to be fixed" let me ask you this. Within the bounds of sanity how many aircraft do YOU think is reasonable in a given Combat? 100? 1000? 100,000? how bout a 1,000,000? Think about what you are saying.

5. We made changes to the system to try to break down Air Combat into more manageble chunks, or packets if you will. Large air Battles, in theory, could be chewed one bite at a time instead of all at once. But these two have managed to choke the game. The CAP ran out of time. This MAY be due to a previously unhighlighted design oversight, into which I have begun an inquiry. But suffice it to say the most obvious oversight was this: I don't think anyone thought players would ever be able to accomplish something like this. to that I would say : You can code a game and plan for as many wild and crazy permutations as you want, but you can’t code a human being’s play nor his propensity to try and game the system

6. Finally, I honestly don't think there is a fix for this that would make everyone happy. Making everyone happy is tough enough, but in this case even if a battle like this were played out as historically as was possible I still think the respective players would be disappointed. Why? Because it would still be retarded armageddon.

To those that lament that "the Bombers got through!", guess what. They usually did. THAT was reality. They didn't always get through in good order, but they GENERALLY always got through. Those who say otherwise are ignorant of historical fact, and are not providing constructive criticism.

Finally, and some of you will find this insensitive or whatever, but I just read the CR and after nearly $#!tt!ng myself I just laughed for about five minutes....sorry Greyjoy/Rader I don't mean to make light of your issue, but this is crazy. I am not going to go back and read your entire AAR, but however you got to this point, congratulations.

I'll look into this and see what can be done, but you all have to help me out...

[Crackaces]

but this is clearly a design limitation. We have exceeded our Q factor with this combat.

You have a very unique set of conditions here by my limited research... First, a game actually played to almost the bitter end. In reading this forum that is a pretty rare occurance. Given the time investment of this game and other factors .. I believe such input would be very valuable .. I am not perceiving the understanding of this value ...

So would this behavior this occur in scenrario #1? If not then it is a limitation to ahistorical scenrarios? If it is likely in a scenario #1 then is the game desgined to fail? Is it because the Allies have planted so many airframes so close to bases within the Home Islands, which has not been tested?

I believe you might have hit upon a great point. One, games do not make great similations and great similations tend not to make great games.

BTW) If this is a similation I wonder what references were used to construct the probability curves? Does your modelling fit those curves?
I would believe a simulation would use the Circles of Apollonius intercept model rather than more abstract "what is around the target that can get there at one point of time ... " For example, I have not had aircraft between the target and the enemy airbase intercept incoming aircraft only aircraft within the circumference of the target, but maybe you all have figured out to have a probablity fit using that model? Just a thought ..

BTWII) I believe the forum would agree that there are problems with the model from the Allied flak and the 5" proximity fuse ... thus a lot more IJ aircraft make it through than my historical research .. but N=1 ...

BTWIII) As an ex-Architect I might not be so "and this is the way it is," and a little more "this is how I designed it and help me understand how to make it better ." . you might not change anything but the tone suggest even if I were to come up with the most brilliant suggestion .. the team is pretty much entrenched into the current design .. which is ok then the market decides the worth of the product at face value ..

.just my .02 cents ..

[Grunt]

I don't know my Q Factor from my Circle of Appollonius but I do know I enjoyed this AAR immensely. I declare Greyjoy the winner and think they should turn the chessboard around and play again from the other side. What do you guys think?

[Lokasenna]

No offense to GreyJoy, but that sounds like an extremely one-sided game, given Rader's familiarity with the Japanese industry.

Agreed, though. Epic AAR, it's been a pleasure to read (a couple pages of) both sides .

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Grunt

I don't know my Q Factor from my Circle of Appollonius but I do know I enjoyed this AAR immensely. I declare Greyjoy the winner and think they should turn the chessboard around and play again from the other side. What do you guys think?

GJ is declared winner? Why? Because Rader bogged down his invasions and wiped out the Allied fleet? There are some factors why this happened but hey ho, declaring Rader losing (by saying GJ won) because of those factors would be too much.

[Grunt]

I meant no disrespect to Rader. He played an outstanding game...surpassing anything I could have remotely accomplished. Both sides deserve tremendous credit. But I think a consensus (I could be wrong) is that GJ could have sat back and bombed Japanese industry to dust. But he chose to advance further, and take risks, to give us readers a more entertaining AAR.

And obviously I have no power to declare anybody anything. Just a bit of hyberbole.

[jeffs]

Yeah...But GJ could always just Nuke Japan when the time comes.....Forget about points...Any country that has 10 cities nuked is not a winner in my
world view...

[HansBolter]

Those debating about who won or lost should bear in mind that GJ made a choice to invade Hoshu after securing Hokkaido to keep the game entertaining for all not because it was the wisest choice in regard to a method of winning. He could have sat back and strategic bombed Japan into oblivion, but wanted to present a more exciting game for all of those sitting ringside.

[vicberg]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

6. Finally, I honestly don't think there is a fix for this that would make everyone happy. Making everyone happy is tough enough, but in this case even if a battle like this were played out as historically as was possible I still think the respective players would be disappointed. Why? Because it would still be retarded armageddon.

How about limiting the sizes of airbases. Seems like a simple solution that works within the combat model? Level 9s don't hold an unlimited amount of planes. Forces distribution, causing greater coordination issues and less planes in combat.

[Canoerebel]

Bump.

I'm gonna PM GreyJoy and encourage him to return to the Forums.  He must've OD'd his first time around and sworn off the game...

[JocMeister]

His GF probably forced him to marry or some other insanity! [;)]

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Grunt

I don't know my Q Factor from my Circle of Appollonius but I do know I enjoyed this AAR immensely. I declare Greyjoy the winner and think they should turn the chessboard around and play again from the other side. What do you guys think?

GJ is declared winner? Why? Because Rader bogged down his invasions and wiped out the Allied fleet? There are some factors why this happened but hey ho, declaring Rader losing (by saying GJ won) because of those factors would be too much.

BTW) Castor Troy .. the last devastating raid on the Allies was a combination of game engine inadequacy [Rader flew over multiple bases to stage aricraft in the rear and then lauched the second day ] and using the 2-day turn .. then the "Q-factor" as "the elf"frames it -- resulted in Allied fighters not engaging resulting in a most bizzare result ... the dialogue after that pushed Grey Joy away from the game ..

[Canoerebel]

I wanted to post excerpt from a message I received from GJ today. I posted this in another thread about GJ, but it needs to be here also. I didn't receive permission from GJ to post this publicly. I'm sure he wouldn't mind, but for the sake of caution I will summarize most of the message and only quote those parts directly aimed at the Forum community

"Hi Dan!

Well, you're right. I've been MIA for a lot of months... it's been a strange 2012 so far for me...[here GJ goes into some detail about how hectic 2012 has been for him, in particular do to some very good but demanding things at work].

....Anyway, i'm seeing a little llight at the end of the tunnell and maybe, by the end of summer, i'll be able to start living again like a normal human being (finger crossed)!

Thanks a lot for your kind words Dan...i have to admit that often my mind goes back thinking at those great days of the epic match with Rader...the forum...the AAR thread...the excitement of making secret plans... and all those good friends i've met there... that place is simply magical...

I thank you a lot for remembering me. I haven't forgotten you either! It's been a pleasure to meet you (unfortunately only virtually) and a priviledge to been considered part of this great community.

I hope to get back anytime soon...even if only to say hello.

Please, bring to the guys on the forum my best whishes and tell them....SCOOOODRAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ciao my friend!

Nic

Long live Scoodra indeed!

[GreyJoy]

Hi guys,

i think you all deserve a frank and pubblic declaration.

This game between me and Rader is officially over.

After more than 4 months of halt, our energies, our wills, are completely overwhelmed by real lifes necessities.
Personally i feel i don't have any more "fuel" left to play this game (not only this match).... probably i will get back on it, but not anytime soon...

I take this chance to thank, from the deep of my heart, all of you for the amazing journey we've had togheder.
This AAR has been an incredible experience for me and that's just because of you. Every single one of you.
Readers, lurkers, contributors, "affecionados". Everyone. You've been great and, for what it's worth, i really feel bound to this Community after this amazing year spent togheder.

Today i sat down and read back few pages of this thread.... man, what a trip!!!

We've laughed, we've cried, we've fought, we have critizied, we have warned.... but, above all, we became friends (i know, virtual friends, not real friends...blah blah blah...well, you know what i mean).

I should thank each of you personally....but i'll forget for sure too many names...

Just know that, for me, this has been one of the best social experience i've ever had (well, as you now, auto-herotism isn't included in this list).

Thanks, again.

And a special thanks goes to Rader...the best opponent i could ever dream to have. A partner more than an opponent....and, above all, a friend.

Who won?..... in Italy we should say "STICAZZI CHI HA VINTO"....which could be translated in something like "WHO GIVES A F.U.C.K. who have won!?" ....we had fun, and that's what it only matters.

See u around guys!

GJ

[obvert]

Thanks GJ. It was a very fun ride!

All the best for your upcoming trials and we do hope to see you again one day.

[Canoerebel]

Personally, I insist that everybody agree with me that GJ won!  [:)]

The AE community is still vibrant and hopefully will produce many more epics in comnig years, but i wonder if "The Power of Inexperience" will be the AAR that all others will be judged by, just as "Small Ship, Big War" was for WitP?

Of course, there is room for other nominations:  "Beer Made Me Do It", "The Dark Side of the Moon," anything authored by Cap Mandrake, and lots of other AARs have been mighty interesting.

GJ's current situation reminds me of the experiences of Grotius, another person who loved the game, but perhaps loved it so much he flamed out. Grotius comes back on occasion.  He even tries to get back into the game.  But each time he quickly fades away. 

Here's hoping GJ rejoins at some propitious time down the road.  Salute!

[khyberbill]

Personally, I insist that everybody agree with me that GJ won!

GreyJoy did show that no matter how far down the Allied player can be driven, and he was driven hard and then put away wet, they can come back considering the amount of material they get in late war.

I personally hope you come back, make a lot of critical mistakes in the early game and then..... some more spelling bee times!