State of the Air War in AE

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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crsutton
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RE: State of the Air War in AE

Post by crsutton »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Can you stack 20 CVs in a hex in 1945? Yes. Should you? No.

It makes no odds if you do or not. It's the 300 escort max limit which is the issue, not glomming 20 CVs into one hex. The problem if anything is on the LBA side, not the CVs.

If you split your 20 CVs into eight or nine TFs, some in the same hex, some not, you get the LBA targeting model working for you and not against you. If when you use nine TFs the Japanese can still get 300 escorts per raid, then, as the Elf says, don't go there yet. You aren't ready.


Yes, I am starting to think that this is the solution. Gonna try it anyway.
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AcePylut
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RE: State of the Air War in AE

Post by AcePylut »

ORIGINAL: CT Grognard

KA-CHING!

Hopefully now the penny drops.

Let's say in theory a Japanese player has a massive Level 10 airbase that has 1,200 aircraft there. I, as Allied player, want to attack this base with my CVs. But how?

Do I group all 20x my CVs into a single TF and hope that my massed CAP will protect me from his strike and then hope that my massed strike will suppress her airbase?

OR WAIT!

Do I rather disperse into five different TFs in different hexes all within strike range of this UBER-base, and set all five my TFs to attack the base in question?

Hmmmmmmm...

I linked the answer to this strategy question in my first post on this thread. Posts 24 and 25 answer the question in my thread :)
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RE: State of the Air War in AE

Post by AcePylut »

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: TheElf
two part test...

1. you are absolutely right. It is too easy to get the golden number of escorts. What is wrong with that?

2. The 8th Air Force found the same equation. Riddle me this: how many 8th Air Force Raids were turned back. How many times did they not hit their target (where weather didn't prevent it)?

So answer # 2 and then Answer #1

Too many player think that it should be possible to stop a well coordinated raid, at least to an extent where the raid is unable to deal a notable ammount of damage.
I brought a similar argument, which was dismissed as not comparable. Personally I think it compares quite well.

The problem with large scale raids is that they are a lot more difficult to intercept. For CAP to engage sufficiently there is so much time required to scramble,
get into proper formation, align with the (assumed heavily escorted) bomber stream, avoid and/or deal with escort fighters vectored to engage the threat,
get into proper position to mount an attack run of a scale it overwhelms defensive fire, pass through the bomber formation, and then regain tactical position
again to repeat that stunt.

With several hundreds of planes involved on both sides, for this style of attacks that often means only a very low number of attack runs until the raid reaches
target. WitP AE displays this issue quite nicely I think.

I agree, and the problem is compounded furthermore by this belief that "for safety", every ship should all be located in a 40nm hex instead of spread out over multiple, adjacent, hexes.
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RE: State of the Air War in AE

Post by AcePylut »

ORIGINAL: CT Grognard

And hope your Japanese opponent is unable to send a heavy bombardment force to "spread the love" all over that B-29 base. [:D]

*bases* :)

I tend to think that any allied player that bases his B29's at one base, that can be nailed by a in-and-out bombardment run, deserves to lose all his B29's.

B29 bases should be behind the first line, second line, and third line of bases. No Japanese should ever be allowed to come close to the B29 bases.

That's behind the "Fighter bases" up front, behind the "1E Bomber and patrol aircraft" bases, and behind the 2E and B17/24 bases.


IMHO
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RE: State of the Air War in AE

Post by AcePylut »

ORIGINAL: crsutton


If you split your 20 CVs into eight or nine TFs, some in the same hex, some not, you get the LBA targeting model working for you and not against you. If when you use nine TFs the Japanese can still get 300 escorts per raid, then, as the Elf says, don't go there yet. You aren't ready.


Yes, I am starting to think that this is the solution. Gonna try it anyway.


tm.asp?m=3018547


Been running an AAR which does exactly this strategy. After the first drive up to the HI, a couple days action, then departure, with practically no important assets lost (the Antietem was hit by subs, not planes) - I'll be doing the same thing again in a couple weeks. Lets see if Cruft can come up with a counter (but honestly, I don't think he can - he doesn't have direct control over which planes fly against which ships)

Cruft please disregard this statement immediately :) I'm not going to the Home Islands. I'm not going to the Home Islands. I'm invading Formosa!!!! Formosa!!! Then Korea!!! Yeah that's the ticket!
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RE: State of the Air War in AE

Post by TheElf »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

TheElf,

Please, please, oh please do not fall for the old conjuring trick being presented with the aim of pressuring you into changing things when there is no sound fundamental good reason to do so. Too often in the past code has been changed to accommodate poor players who complain when their lack of skill/understanding is exposed. To put up now the detailed reasons for my plea would be too time consuming but here are a few briefly presented reasons.

1. You were generous in dismissing kindly in the other related thread the validity of the so called air combat tests. I shall be much more direct. For the reasons you gave plus a few other reasons you did not state, those tests had zero validity. They have been described by a well known forum contributor as "vanity tests". They prove absolutely nothing.

2. All the proposed coding solutions are difficult to code because they are arbitrary, and there is no development team available to do all the work. Plus they all fail because they fail to address the fundamental problem which is that RTS style players who attempt to play a game which is grounded in real world parameters will always, at some stage, reach the edge of the cliff.

3. The game already has the solution to the perceived problems. Unfortunately it requires players to do all the necessary unsexy things which the RTS crowd don't like to do. Those game areas which could be further improved involve zero coding but an awful lot of OOB reconfiguring a la the DaBabes family of mods. No one, and I mean no one, is volunteering their services to undertake all that hard yakka for the official scenarios.

4. Some posters in this thread and elsewhere have repeatedly poointed out the incorrect strategy and tactics employed. Those who continuously shout down the messengers of what is the correct approach fail to understand the points. Here are a few common errors.

(a) Attrition of the Japanese forces is cited as the correct approach. This is wrong because attrition is a very dumb military strategy. Ask Haig, Joffre and Falkenhayn. What advocates of attrition really should be iterating is that degradation of the enemy force structure, plus misdirection of the enemy military assets, plus pinning enemy forces elsewhere is required before a direct approach to the Home Islands can be undertaken with any reasonable comfort level. None of these elements has anything to do with attrition. In fact given the basic game design, compounded by playing the ahistorical scenario 2, attrition particularly of air assets is to the benefit of Japan.

(b) Several posters are advocating coding additional air coordination penalties. Mein Gott, they already exist in the game. Instead because a player places over 4000 aircraft in a single airbase and has the need for only 250 aviation support personnel present at that same airbase to maintain this surreal air fleet, you are being asked to undertake complex recoding. All that is required in this instance is two things, firstly properly implement the AE decision to remove the 250 aviation support upper cap for human players, and secondly adopt the DaBabes treatment of the multifacets of engineers. The first might be relatively easily accomplished but the second isn't (see point 3 above).

(c) Others are practically demanding that coding be introduced to guarantee carrier fleets will be able to utilise fully 1000 fighters on fleet CAP. Again a misunderstanding of the real world and what the existing game engine is capable of. Just how long would it be before an Allied player sends a 20 CV fleet to act as an air combat trap deploying only fighters, approximately 2000. Would we then have demands to up the limits? Whatever limits are introduced, someone will sooner rather than later come up with a counter. The only correct way to deal with that sort of a problem is with skillful play.

(d) Others complain about the ablative armour effect to the bombers provided by the escorts. This too can be defeated. The days of when a battle incurred entirely within a day, usually over just 1-2 hours are long gone. Battles can and do rage for days, weeks. Campaigns for months. Let the strike package approach with its ablative armour. On day 1 the bombers will get through, the ablative armour will be hacked out of the sky. The escorting fighter groups will return to their airbases and perhaps will be able to draw in replacements or be rotated out and replaced by fresh fighter units. So on day 2 of the battle another strike package could possibly be assembled with its supporting ablative armour. Same result. However this time, the fighter losses, even if supply is present and the pools contain airframes, cannot immediately be made good as there is already in the game a 7 day restocking limit on airframes. The skillful recipient of these huges strike packages factors into his planning these game elements and assembles his forces to absorb the impact of day 1, day 2 ... to come out ultimately on top.


5. All this has come to a head as a result of the rader-GreyJoy match. The single biggest reason why that match has a problem, is due to a single fact which no one ever comments upon. That is they have no "objective" victory conditions. An old thread by Bullwinkle argued, and in my view, quite correctly that a game such as AE needs auto victory. Section 17 of the manual deals with the game's victory conditions. Unfortuneately far too many players like to puff up their chests and declaim s.17 doesn't apply to me, I'll know when I have "won". Well guess what the fundamental sillyness of that approach is exceedingly well demonstrated in the rader-GreyJoy match. When GreyJoy landed on Hokkaido the peanut gallery said the war was now won by the Allies. Now after the failure of the subsequent follow up Allied strategy and tactics there is much wailing that the Allies can't win. The victory conditions outlined in s17 of the manual fairly represent the historical outcome of WWII. In mid August 1945 Japan surrendered because it was totally defeated (except in the eyes of certain fanatical suicidal elites) without the need for an Allied landing on the Home Islands. GreyJoy couldn't adopt that approach because he had been outplayed by his opponent and could not achieve a victory as per s.17 of the manual. Instead he chose a Hail Mary to bypass s.17 of the manual. The results of the poor play has come home to roost.

Alfred
Wow...umm. I agree.
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RE: State of the Air War in AE

Post by Sardaukar »

It's going to be interesting when michaelm removes the "magical 250" from Air Support (that can now provide unlimited Air Support for massive number of planes). As he mentioned on Scenario Design forum, "do not always expect it to be so". [8D] If future we may actually have to have matching number of Air Support compared to planes (or suffer reduced numbers available accordingly), things will get interesting.
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RE: State of the Air War in AE

Post by Commander Stormwolf »

air war model is almost perfect except:

1) need gun accuracy based on ammo instead of ROF
2) adjust effect rating of some guns
3) remove drop tank mvr penalty (or remove drop tanks
altogether and just consider the range with drop tanks
in the normal range)
4) night air combat is wrong
5) altitude modifiers are wrong, needs to be based on
supercharger stages.. problem is that in reality it is not
mvr that changes with altitude.. but speed that changes



otherwise the permeability of CAP and raid system are excellent

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here is the F6F hellcat with a 2-stage supercharger with a max altitude of 30,000 feet
and 400 rounds per gun of browning M2 (operates well at medium altitude, 25% pentalty
at high and low)

gun accuracy is based on (muzzle velocity / 3000) x (ammo supply / 500)
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Jaroen
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RE: State of the Air War in AE

Post by Jaroen »

ORIGINAL: TheElf

What are the weaknesses I see? Well there are several, and I won’t go into each and every one, but will speak to the one that generates most of the discussion here:
Uber Air battles. This is an easy one. It is a legacy weakness, and one that we spent an awful lot of time trying to address, uber CAP, bloody results, leaky CAP, you name it, this game does not do well. That said we made great strides, and expert players have shown that you CAN minimize the impact of this weakness by playing carefully. But you have to know what is reasonable and what isn’t. One of the ways to do this is to try to understand how real world Air Operations work. If you do a little light reading you will find that Air Operations in WWII were cyclical in nature. Sustained heavy combat Ops were difficult to maintain. Maintenance cycles and fatigue, force flow, logistics, often did not allow a “Balls to the Wall” “throw everything at them but the kitchen sink” mentality. Air forces spent themselves against each other, made gains or not, and then went into a phase of rebuilding.

Cheers!
Elf


Hi Elf, thanks for being so clear and up front with this opening for discussion. I hope you don't mind me picking apart your full original post. To me this part is the essence of the message. I could be wrong . . .

On the specific issue you mention I don't really have any true experience. I play the AI and normally stay withing 'realistic' boundaries to have that 'historical' battle. And I do enjoy it even though I spot some 'awkward' design tweaks helping the AI. Nevertheless I figure we all deal in some part with this escort/cap problems. Only, in my opinion it is mostly about the all or nothing results. CAP must bypass ALL escorts before getting to the bombers. But when they do get to the bombers it's usually murder.

My preference would be somewhat of a half/half solution. I'd propose to think of something to let the CAP get to the bombers without dealing with the FULL escort first. Like some percentage of the CAP breaking through depending on some suitable game values (some plane data, weather, radar guidance, leaders, pilot experience, etc.). Would that be possible? I mean design wise? At the same time those attacks on bombers should be somewhat less lethal. More damage and less kills. And also doing some interference with target acquisition and bombing effectiveness. More damage could also result in longer and more repairs required lessening continued massive air assaults. Don't know how to go about that using game values though (some measured higher durability???). Would there be one without schewing other parts of the game?

If it comes to ship attacks it would also feel more realistic I think if allied AAA in the second half of the war would be more punishing. Again, doing damage instead of killing would be sufficient together with hurting targeting - and torpedoing/bombing effectiveness.

Together, fighter break throughs, damage + required repairs, less effective bombing/torpedoing when intercepted and 'historical' AAA effectiveness might effect a change which feels more 'realistic'. Perhaps even with mega air battles.
Only 'uber' with umlaut, or else it is 'ueber'! [;)]

My other remark would be about possible other 'weaknesses' you see. You're quite mysterious about them?! Are you sure there are more? [8D] What would be another one which perhaps isn't discussed (much) but which you find 'irritating'?

To bite my own tail, I don't know about the game machine modelling strafing ground forces? To be exact, strafing seems to be horribly hurting, or non-effective. Horribly hurting when attacking large ground concentrations (including some AAA of course) or non-effective when attacking (very) small forces where they actually should be most effective. Would that be another issue you're thinking of??? Or is it just me? I don't think it's anything major though. But having this fun and realistic attack option is somewhat nullified. Which is a pity.

Thanks for you attention and hoping for some sound discussion!
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RE: State of the Air War in AE

Post by Commander Stormwolf »

Haybabusa Ic --> max altitude is 20,000 feet with 50% penalty at 15k-20k
single stage supercharger operates well at low alt

250 rounds per gun of Ho-103 with good effect rating but poor penetration



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RE: State of the Air War in AE

Post by TheElf »

ORIGINAL: Jaroen

ORIGINAL: TheElf

What are the weaknesses I see? Well there are several, and I won’t go into each and every one, but will speak to the one that generates most of the discussion here:
Uber Air battles. This is an easy one. It is a legacy weakness, and one that we spent an awful lot of time trying to address, uber CAP, bloody results, leaky CAP, you name it, this game does not do well. That said we made great strides, and expert players have shown that you CAN minimize the impact of this weakness by playing carefully. But you have to know what is reasonable and what isn’t. One of the ways to do this is to try to understand how real world Air Operations work. If you do a little light reading you will find that Air Operations in WWII were cyclical in nature. Sustained heavy combat Ops were difficult to maintain. Maintenance cycles and fatigue, force flow, logistics, often did not allow a “Balls to the Wall” “throw everything at them but the kitchen sink” mentality. Air forces spent themselves against each other, made gains or not, and then went into a phase of rebuilding.

Cheers!
Elf


Hi Elf, thanks for being so clear and up front with this opening for discussion. I hope you don't mind me picking apart your full original post. To me this part is the essence of the message. I could be wrong . . .

On the specific issue you mention I don't really have any true experience. I play the AI and normally stay withing 'realistic' boundaries to have that 'historical' battle. And I do enjoy it even though I spot some 'awkward' design tweaks helping the AI. Nevertheless I figure we all deal in some part with this escort/cap problems. Only, in my opinion it is mostly about the all or nothing results. CAP must bypass ALL escorts before getting to the bombers. But when they do get to the bombers it's usually murder.

My preference would be somewhat of a half/half solution. I'd propose to think of something to let the CAP get to the bombers without dealing with the FULL escort first. Like some percentage of the CAP breaking through depending on some suitable game values (some plane data, weather, radar guidance, leaders, pilot experience, etc.). Would that be possible? I mean design wise? At the same time those attacks on bombers should be somewhat less lethal. More damage and less kills. And also doing some interference with target acquisition and bombing effectiveness. More damage could also result in longer and more repairs required lessening continued massive air assaults. Don't know how to go about that using game values though (some measured higher durability???). Would there be one without schewing other parts of the game?

If it comes to ship attacks it would also feel more realistic I think if allied AAA in the second half of the war would be more punishing. Again, doing damage instead of killing would be sufficient together with hurting targeting - and torpedoing/bombing effectiveness.

Together, fighter break throughs, damage + required repairs, less effective bombing/torpedoing when intercepted and 'historical' AAA effectiveness might effect a change which feels more 'realistic'. Perhaps even with mega air battles.
Only 'uber' with umlaut, or else it is 'ueber'! [;)]

My other remark would be about possible other 'weaknesses' you see. You're quite mysterious about them?! Are you sure there are more? [8D] What would be another one which perhaps isn't discussed (much) but which you find 'irritating'?

To bite my own tail, I don't know about the game machine modelling strafing ground forces? To be exact, strafing seems to be horribly hurting, or non-effective. Horribly hurting when attacking large ground concentrations (including some AAA of course) or non-effective when attacking (very) small forces where they actually should be most effective. Would that be another issue you're thinking of??? Or is it just me? I don't think it's anything major though. But having this fun and realistic attack option is somewhat nullified. Which is a pity.

Thanks for you attention and hoping for some sound discussion!
The bolded items you mention are the heart of many of the changes we made in AE to start with. CAP fighters CAN get to the Bombers without necessarily going through the Escort. Unfortunately even when it works the clumsy nature of the legacy Combat replay does not communicate it well enough to make it obvious to the layman player. But it is in the code. The problem is that it would seem as Air battles grow in size the time available to resolve CAP vs. bomber combat is reduced. This is one of the issues I am looking into, but have yet to get a response from Michael. Could be a non issue, but I have a sneaking suspicion.

As far as other weaknesses, I've already acknowledged one, and that is the Ablative armor Escorts we've mentioned. But this is a tricky fix, as I have already stated, because when you look at attacker Vs Defender the ATTACKER has the Sweep in his bag of tricks. If we neuter CAP vs Escorts we risk imbalancing CAP against an attacker who uses sweep...does this make sense? not sure I am explaining this clearly...been a long day.
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Alfred
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RE: State of the Air War in AE

Post by Alfred »

I can certainly confirm that whilst CAP always tangles first with the escorting fighters (="the ablative armour of the bombers) on occasion at some point some of the CAP does break through to the bombers even though there are still undefeated escorting fighters present.

One idea which has been put by Nemo before, which were it not for its coding difficulties, would go a long way towards addressing the ablative issues, is introduction of fighter doctrine a la EDBTR. The player would select that a particular CAP doctrine for each different fighter model. For example a Japanese player could elect Zeros to attempt to focus primarily on enemy fighters whereas Nicks could attempt to focus primarily on enemy bombers. Whether indirect or direct attack approaches were utilised could also be factored in. Thus the idea would be that whilst the Zeros kept the Allied escorting fighters occupied the Nicks would attempt to standoff until they could see an opportunity to reach the bombers. Off course they might not be given that opportunity by the Allied fighters who might target them directly, a distinct possibility if the escorting fighters greatly outnumbered the Zeros.

Whilst the idea has merit, it would entail some significant coding work and further extends the boundaries of the game's existing design parameters, an outcome which is not necessarily good for game playability. Not to mention the additional demands on processing power.

Alfred
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RE: State of the Air War in AE

Post by TheElf »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I can certainly confirm that whilst CAP always tangles first with the escorting fighters (="the ablative armour of the bombers) on occasion at some point some of the CAP does break through to the bombers even though there are still undefeated escorting fighters present.

One idea which has been put by Nemo before, which were it not for its coding difficulties, would go a long way towards addressing the ablative issues, is introduction of fighter doctrine a la EDBTR. The player would select that a particular CAP doctrine for each different fighter model. For example a Japanese player could elect Zeros to attempt to focus primarily on enemy fighters whereas Nicks could attempt to focus primarily on enemy bombers. Whether indirect or direct attack approaches were utilised could also be factored in. Thus the idea would be that whilst the Zeros kept the Allied escorting fighters occupied the Nicks would attempt to standoff until they could see an opportunity to reach the bombers. Off course they might not be given that opportunity by the Allied fighters who might target them directly, a distinct possibility if the escorting fighters greatly outnumbered the Zeros.

Whilst the idea has merit, it would entail some significant coding work and further extends the boundaries of the game's existing design parameters, an outcome which is not necessarily good for game playability. Not to mention the additional demands on processing power.

Alfred
This is an old Bombing the Reich concept which I love, and would have loved to implement in AE from the start. I also toyed with the idea of a CAG unit that went on each Carrier and embodied the potential differences in doctrine that could be employed from CVs. Unfortunately it was prioritized behind other bigger ticket items and never made it in.
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RE: State of the Air War in AE

Post by pompack »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

TheElf,

Please, please, oh please do not fall for the old conjuring trick being presented with the aim of pressuring you into changing things when there is no sound fundamental good reason to do so. Too often in the past code has been changed to accommodate poor players who complain when their lack of skill/understanding is exposed. To put up now the detailed reasons for my plea would be too time consuming but here are a few briefly presented reasons.

1. You were generous in dismissing kindly in the other related thread the validity of the so called air combat tests. I shall be much more direct. For the reasons you gave plus a few other reasons you did not state, those tests had zero validity. They have been described by a well known forum contributor as "vanity tests". They prove absolutely nothing.

2. All the proposed coding solutions are difficult to code because they are arbitrary, and there is no development team available to do all the work. Plus they all fail because they fail to address the fundamental problem which is that RTS style players who attempt to play a game which is grounded in real world parameters will always, at some stage, reach the edge of the cliff.

3. The game already has the solution to the perceived problems. Unfortunately it requires players to do all the necessary unsexy things which the RTS crowd don't like to do. Those game areas which could be further improved involve zero coding but an awful lot of OOB reconfiguring a la the DaBabes family of mods. No one, and I mean no one, is volunteering their services to undertake all that hard yakka for the official scenarios.

4. Some posters in this thread and elsewhere have repeatedly poointed out the incorrect strategy and tactics employed. Those who continuously shout down the messengers of what is the correct approach fail to understand the points. Here are a few common errors.

(a) Attrition of the Japanese forces is cited as the correct approach. This is wrong because attrition is a very dumb military strategy. Ask Haig, Joffre and Falkenhayn. What advocates of attrition really should be iterating is that degradation of the enemy force structure, plus misdirection of the enemy military assets, plus pinning enemy forces elsewhere is required before a direct approach to the Home Islands can be undertaken with any reasonable comfort level. None of these elements has anything to do with attrition. In fact given the basic game design, compounded by playing the ahistorical scenario 2, attrition particularly of air assets is to the benefit of Japan.

(b) Several posters are advocating coding additional air coordination penalties. Mein Gott, they already exist in the game. Instead because a player places over 4000 aircraft in a single airbase and has the need for only 250 aviation support personnel present at that same airbase to maintain this surreal air fleet, you are being asked to undertake complex recoding. All that is required in this instance is two things, firstly properly implement the AE decision to remove the 250 aviation support upper cap for human players, and secondly adopt the DaBabes treatment of the multifacets of engineers. The first might be relatively easily accomplished but the second isn't (see point 3 above).

(c) Others are practically demanding that coding be introduced to guarantee carrier fleets will be able to utilise fully 1000 fighters on fleet CAP. Again a misunderstanding of the real world and what the existing game engine is capable of. Just how long would it be before an Allied player sends a 20 CV fleet to act as an air combat trap deploying only fighters, approximately 2000. Would we then have demands to up the limits? Whatever limits are introduced, someone will sooner rather than later come up with a counter. The only correct way to deal with that sort of a problem is with skillful play.

(d) Others complain about the ablative armour effect to the bombers provided by the escorts. This too can be defeated. The days of when a battle incurred entirely within a day, usually over just 1-2 hours are long gone. Battles can and do rage for days, weeks. Campaigns for months. Let the strike package approach with its ablative armour. On day 1 the bombers will get through, the ablative armour will be hacked out of the sky. The escorting fighter groups will return to their airbases and perhaps will be able to draw in replacements or be rotated out and replaced by fresh fighter units. So on day 2 of the battle another strike package could possibly be assembled with its supporting ablative armour. Same result. However this time, the fighter losses, even if supply is present and the pools contain airframes, cannot immediately be made good as there is already in the game a 7 day restocking limit on airframes. The skillful recipient of these huges strike packages factors into his planning these game elements and assembles his forces to absorb the impact of day 1, day 2 ... to come out ultimately on top.


5. All this has come to a head as a result of the rader-GreyJoy match. The single biggest reason why that match has a problem, is due to a single fact which no one ever comments upon. That is they have no "objective" victory conditions. An old thread by Bullwinkle argued, and in my view, quite correctly that a game such as AE needs auto victory. Section 17 of the manual deals with the game's victory conditions. Unfortuneately far too many players like to puff up their chests and declaim s.17 doesn't apply to me, I'll know when I have "won". Well guess what the fundamental sillyness of that approach is exceedingly well demonstrated in the rader-GreyJoy match. When GreyJoy landed on Hokkaido the peanut gallery said the war was now won by the Allies. Now after the failure of the subsequent follow up Allied strategy and tactics there is much wailing that the Allies can't win. The victory conditions outlined in s17 of the manual fairly represent the historical outcome of WWII. In mid August 1945 Japan surrendered because it was totally defeated (except in the eyes of certain fanatical suicidal elites) without the need for an Allied landing on the Home Islands. GreyJoy couldn't adopt that approach because he had been outplayed by his opponent and could not achieve a victory as per s.17 of the manual. Instead he chose a Hail Mary to bypass s.17 of the manual. The results of the poor play has come home to roost.

Alfred

Alfred:
Dead on the money as always.

To extend your point #3 just a bit, you pointed out that the basic design can handle the changes as in "DaBabes" requiring "only" unskilled but dedicated people to dig into the OOB. Not only is no one stepping up to volunteer, there have been several comments (not all in this thread) stating that what is needed are a few simple code changes (but requiring highly skilled people) that no one is willing to make.

Dwell on that "willing" for a moment. First, on a system this massive and with this much really, really old legacy code there are no simple changes. Second, while no one has divulged any financial details I would be shocked if the AE development team achieved anywhere near minimum wage on this project; it was a labor for love, not financial gain. In industry, if you want something like this done you better expect to pay well in excess of $100/hour (including benefits driving by industry competition, not government mandates [:D]) for a lot of hours. So just who is willing to stand up and say I will do my part in funding this change? And remember if a million people want the change it's easy, if fifty people want it they better have deep pockets.

Just my two cents from the viewpoint of a cynical old engineer

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RE: State of the Air War in AE

Post by TheElf »

ORIGINAL: pompack

ORIGINAL: Alfred

TheElf,

Please, please, oh please do not fall for the old conjuring trick being presented with the aim of pressuring you into changing things when there is no sound fundamental good reason to do so. Too often in the past code has been changed to accommodate poor players who complain when their lack of skill/understanding is exposed. To put up now the detailed reasons for my plea would be too time consuming but here are a few briefly presented reasons.

1. You were generous in dismissing kindly in the other related thread the validity of the so called air combat tests. I shall be much more direct. For the reasons you gave plus a few other reasons you did not state, those tests had zero validity. They have been described by a well known forum contributor as "vanity tests". They prove absolutely nothing.

2. All the proposed coding solutions are difficult to code because they are arbitrary, and there is no development team available to do all the work. Plus they all fail because they fail to address the fundamental problem which is that RTS style players who attempt to play a game which is grounded in real world parameters will always, at some stage, reach the edge of the cliff.

3. The game already has the solution to the perceived problems. Unfortunately it requires players to do all the necessary unsexy things which the RTS crowd don't like to do. Those game areas which could be further improved involve zero coding but an awful lot of OOB reconfiguring a la the DaBabes family of mods. No one, and I mean no one, is volunteering their services to undertake all that hard yakka for the official scenarios.

4. Some posters in this thread and elsewhere have repeatedly poointed out the incorrect strategy and tactics employed. Those who continuously shout down the messengers of what is the correct approach fail to understand the points. Here are a few common errors.

(a) Attrition of the Japanese forces is cited as the correct approach. This is wrong because attrition is a very dumb military strategy. Ask Haig, Joffre and Falkenhayn. What advocates of attrition really should be iterating is that degradation of the enemy force structure, plus misdirection of the enemy military assets, plus pinning enemy forces elsewhere is required before a direct approach to the Home Islands can be undertaken with any reasonable comfort level. None of these elements has anything to do with attrition. In fact given the basic game design, compounded by playing the ahistorical scenario 2, attrition particularly of air assets is to the benefit of Japan.

(b) Several posters are advocating coding additional air coordination penalties. Mein Gott, they already exist in the game. Instead because a player places over 4000 aircraft in a single airbase and has the need for only 250 aviation support personnel present at that same airbase to maintain this surreal air fleet, you are being asked to undertake complex recoding. All that is required in this instance is two things, firstly properly implement the AE decision to remove the 250 aviation support upper cap for human players, and secondly adopt the DaBabes treatment of the multifacets of engineers. The first might be relatively easily accomplished but the second isn't (see point 3 above).

(c) Others are practically demanding that coding be introduced to guarantee carrier fleets will be able to utilise fully 1000 fighters on fleet CAP. Again a misunderstanding of the real world and what the existing game engine is capable of. Just how long would it be before an Allied player sends a 20 CV fleet to act as an air combat trap deploying only fighters, approximately 2000. Would we then have demands to up the limits? Whatever limits are introduced, someone will sooner rather than later come up with a counter. The only correct way to deal with that sort of a problem is with skillful play.

(d) Others complain about the ablative armour effect to the bombers provided by the escorts. This too can be defeated. The days of when a battle incurred entirely within a day, usually over just 1-2 hours are long gone. Battles can and do rage for days, weeks. Campaigns for months. Let the strike package approach with its ablative armour. On day 1 the bombers will get through, the ablative armour will be hacked out of the sky. The escorting fighter groups will return to their airbases and perhaps will be able to draw in replacements or be rotated out and replaced by fresh fighter units. So on day 2 of the battle another strike package could possibly be assembled with its supporting ablative armour. Same result. However this time, the fighter losses, even if supply is present and the pools contain airframes, cannot immediately be made good as there is already in the game a 7 day restocking limit on airframes. The skillful recipient of these huges strike packages factors into his planning these game elements and assembles his forces to absorb the impact of day 1, day 2 ... to come out ultimately on top.


5. All this has come to a head as a result of the rader-GreyJoy match. The single biggest reason why that match has a problem, is due to a single fact which no one ever comments upon. That is they have no "objective" victory conditions. An old thread by Bullwinkle argued, and in my view, quite correctly that a game such as AE needs auto victory. Section 17 of the manual deals with the game's victory conditions. Unfortuneately far too many players like to puff up their chests and declaim s.17 doesn't apply to me, I'll know when I have "won". Well guess what the fundamental sillyness of that approach is exceedingly well demonstrated in the rader-GreyJoy match. When GreyJoy landed on Hokkaido the peanut gallery said the war was now won by the Allies. Now after the failure of the subsequent follow up Allied strategy and tactics there is much wailing that the Allies can't win. The victory conditions outlined in s17 of the manual fairly represent the historical outcome of WWII. In mid August 1945 Japan surrendered because it was totally defeated (except in the eyes of certain fanatical suicidal elites) without the need for an Allied landing on the Home Islands. GreyJoy couldn't adopt that approach because he had been outplayed by his opponent and could not achieve a victory as per s.17 of the manual. Instead he chose a Hail Mary to bypass s.17 of the manual. The results of the poor play has come home to roost.

Alfred

Alfred:
Dead on the money as always.

To extend your point #3 just a bit, you pointed out that the basic design can handle the changes as in "DaBabes" requiring "only" unskilled but dedicated people to dig into the OOB. Not only is no one stepping up to volunteer, there have been several comments (not all in this thread) stating that what is needed are a few simple code changes (but requiring highly skilled people) that no one is willing to make.

Dwell on that "willing" for a moment. First, on a system this massive and with this much really, really old legacy code there are no simple changes. Second, while no one has divulged any financial details I would be shocked if the AE development team achieved anywhere near minimum wage on this project; it was a labor for love, not financial gain. In industry, if you want something like this done you better expect to pay well in excess of $100/hour (including benefits driving by industry competition, not government mandates [:D]) for a lot of hours. So just who is willing to stand up and say I will do my part in funding this change? And remember if a million people want the change it's easy, if fifty people want it they better have deep pockets.

Just my two cents from the viewpoint of a cynical old engineer

Hah!! if Michael got 100/hr from the vocal minority to implement their changes he'd be a millionaire by now!
IN PERPETUUM SINGULARIS SEDES

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pompack
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RE: State of the Air War in AE

Post by pompack »

ORIGINAL: TheElf

Hah!! if Michael got 100/hr from the vocal minority to implement their changes he'd be a millionaire by now!

Michael is the only person I have ever encountered (virtually in this case [:)]) who changes other people's old code for fun.

All I can say is:

Blessed be Michael [&o][&o]
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RE: State of the Air War in AE

Post by Jaroen »

Hmmmm, I fully agree with Alfred and others proclaiming the same 'playing' attitude.
Don't know where Alfred's reply came from (it was quoted) but I'm happy it was posted here somehow! Thanks.
Also thanks for your answer on my argument Elf. From watching the combat replays it wasn't clear to me CAP sometimes did break through. I know those replays don't tell the real story, but hey . . . what else is there without having the code in your hands? [;)] (ermmm, the database?!)
After having played WitP and AE after I did notice the changes you mentioned. But I figured it might perhaps work twiddling them a bit more. Which always is tricky . . . Michael would know for sure!? [8D]

We all recognize that sense of competitiveness in those player vs. player games, right?! To me that's a very straightforward answer to how players look for every angle to 'win' the fight/battle and even the war. To me it explains very well every (well many or most) attempt to go outside 'historical' realities. I'd probably go looking for those myself . . . , somewhat?!

Agreeing with Alfred, and with TheElf, on those mega battle issues that leaves me with asking about those other perceived air combat 'irritations'. Would there be any? Is that AAA efficiency one, or the strafing attack effectiveness (mainly with fighters or fighter/bombers). By the way, I think it is true that air attack results are in large part calculated via the size of ground force targets. As in being a percentage theroff. If true, that could be a little odd when having strong air attacks (strafing) against 'small' targets. I don't know about you guys but I think of strafing attacks as some kind of pinpricks. Dealing very precise damage on a small target. Dangerous, but fast in and quickly out. On a large ground force it shouldn't do much damage (perhaps only specific types of troops/hardware?) but it could be devastating on small forces. I can imagine it's hard to implement that way. Easy to come up with an idea, but hard to realize . . .

Good night all!
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RE: State of the Air War in AE

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

TheElf,

Please, please, oh please do not fall for the old conjuring trick being presented with the aim of pressuring you into changing things when there is no sound fundamental good reason to do so. Too often in the past code has been changed to accommodate poor players who complain when their lack of skill/understanding is exposed. To put up now the detailed reasons for my plea would be too time consuming but here are a few briefly presented reasons.[...]


(a) Attrition of the Japanese forces is cited as the correct approach. This is wrong because attrition is a very dumb military strategy. Ask Haig, Joffre and Falkenhayn. What advocates of attrition really should be iterating is that degradation of the enemy force structure, plus misdirection of the enemy military assets, plus pinning enemy forces elsewhere is required before a direct approach to the Home Islands can be undertaken with any reasonable comfort level. None of these elements has anything to do with attrition. In fact given the basic game design, compounded by playing the ahistorical scenario 2, attrition particularly of air assets is to the benefit of Japan.[...]

I very much agree with your post, Alfred. Except for the italic part.

Attrition is dumb, no doubt about it. But sometimes I am embarrassed to say, I agree with Wikipedia:
Military theorists and strategists like Sun Tzu have viewed attrition warfare as something to be avoided. In the sense that attrition warfare represents an attempt to grind down an opponent through superior numbers, it represents the opposite of the usual principles of war, where one attempts to achieve decisive victories through maneuver, concentration of force, surprise, and the like.

On the other hand, a side which perceives itself to be at a marked disadvantage in maneuver warfare or unit tactics may deliberately seek out attrition warfare to neutralize its opponent's advantages. If the sides are nearly evenly matched, the outcome of a war of attrition is likely to be a Pyrrhic victory.

The difference between war of attrition and other forms of war is somewhat artificial, since war always contains an element of attrition. However, one can be said to pursue a strategy of attrition when one makes it the main goal to cause gradual attrition to the opponent eventually amounting to unacceptable or unsustainable levels for the opponent while limiting your own gradual losses to acceptable and sustainable levels. This should be seen as opposed to other main goals such as the conquest of some resource or territory or an attempt to cause the enemy great losses in a single stroke (e.g. by encirclement and capture).

Historically, attritional methods are tried when other methods have failed or are obviously not feasible. Typically, when attritional methods have worn down the enemy sufficiently to make other methods feasible, attritional methods are abandoned in favor of other strategies.

Attritional methods are in themselves usually sufficient to cause a nation to give up a non-vital ambition, but other methods are generally necessary to achieve unconditional surrender.

Obviousely, a war of attrition is to be avoided if other methods of warfare are a feasible option.
It is also to be avoided if it means investing a lot of assets in an area with an equally strong enemy force with the ability to counter or reverse the attritiing situation.

But in context of using attrition to thin out, spread out, and wear down enemy forces to make other means of attack an option (which is basically the context under which
this discussion takes place: "A2A is borked, because I cannot attack a, b and c without getting my a** spanked" [;)]), it is a valuable tool. If you apply mission governed
attrition warfare, and combine it with short to medium term goals, it is in fact exactly part of what you describe as "None of these elements has anything to do with attrition".

Considering our - on first glance - clearly different opinions I wonder if we just have slight differences when using the word attrition in the current context.
From my POV every element of warfare contains elements of attrition. If you use this factor to your advantage, I would call it
"attrition warfare". I don´t see the benefit of neglecting this element of war, it does not prevent or exclude other strategical
elements.
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RE: State of the Air War in AE

Post by Wirraway_Ace »

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: Jzanes
In regards to the firing passes issue, quality of pilots or airframes is irrelevant. All you need is a couple hundred newbs in an obsolescent escort fighter and the bombers will always get thru. I'm not sure, but I believe Rader or Greyjoy actually tested this. They loaded up some squadrons with completely unskilled pilots and sent them out to escort some bombers. The escorts were slaughtered (as always) but the bombers got thru w/o a scratch.

Quite.

I think there are real issues and I'm attempting to be constructive, but I'm not finding this a very constructive thread, tbh.
That is too bad. I am disappointed to hear that is your opinion. I happen to think this has been VERY constructive. Just because you haven't convinced everyone here to your way of thinking doesn't mean the dialogue hasn't been constructive. [;)]

What I have found interesting is that we are in the midst of this discussion and I don't sense a floodgate opening. I haven't seen a lot of people piling into this thread with pitchforks and torches demanding a swift change. We're upwards of 75 replies, but the participation is low. It's still early, but I guess we'll have to see how this thread matures....
TheElf,

I would be cautious about judging by the number of pitchforks because of the limited number of games that have reached 44-45... [:)]

I am a firm believer in the leaky CAP model. The bombers should generally get through. The historical data for this are overwhelming. I also think those who operate 20 CVs and CVLs in a single hex are themselves trying to exploit the game engine and ignoring everything they know or should know about a carrier ops. Additionally, a player that trys to invade a major enemy base or set of interlocking bases with functional, supplied airfields packed with aircraft should expect a bloodbath.

I am a firm believer that operational readiness rates for aircraft are too high and pilot fatigue effects to low. For some reason, UV "felt" better than either WiTP or WiTP-AE in this respect, probalby because of its single theater focus allowed for a simple approach to modeling readiness. The pace of air operations has to be slowed down by player choice currently unless combat is very, very heavy, not by any practical limit within the game. Bombers and fighters can make "milk runs" against lightly defended enemy bases daily for long, long periods at a stretch. This was not the case from bitter memory in UV where I rotated units almost daily to keep ops losses down and fatigue reasonable--which seemed more consistent with historical op tempos in essentially every theater.

It also seems to me that the maximum size of a single strike should coorelate with (not equal) the maximum effective CAP size in a way that produces a plausible distribution of results. Time and space create limits on the size of a single, coherent strike as well as CAP. My recommendation, if it were possible within the code, would be to place an absolute limit on the number of aircraft that could be included in combat resolution as a single strike package that is coorelated with the maximum size of an effective CAP, whether there actually is a firing pass limit or a time model that creates a practical CAP limit. As a starting point, I would use the largest historical raid size from any theater in WWII to establish that limit, and define the size as the largest number of aircraft that arrived over a single major target within 30 minutes as the maximum strike package. Any aircraft that would normally have been included in that strike package that exceed that limit due to the presence of numerous large airfields and a air HQs would be rolled over into a 2nd or even third strike package. For those the argue that such limits should not be known or are arbitrary, I would argue that they were not difficult to derive from both experience and mathmatics. I suspect the 8th AF banged up against the practical limits of strike size routinely during late war operations even with excellent bases and fixed targets.

If it can't be done, I still believe the game can be played with an eye on historical limits on mass by two like minded players and produce the finest wargaming experience available...

Mike
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RE: State of the Air War in AE

Post by EUBanana »

Well, I gave it a while to see what would be produced - a whole bunch of workarounds mixed in with "you're playing it wrong". Unfortunately, as per usual.

The 300 pass rule seems to exist alright. You can work around it, sure. You can split your CVs up so your CAP does not exceed 300 fighters (which is admittedly a pretty damn big bunch of CVs, so it's probably not that onerous... unless near land bases, which still might not be that onerous I suppose given the historic role of CVs). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that if the code will only count the first 300 fighters, that having 500 is wasting your time.

Of course, you work with the system you are given. I like reading these conversations precisely because it gives me a greater understanding of the game rules, so I'm better able to not be banjaxed when something odd happens. Having CAP not count beyond a hardcoded limit seems like a pretty important thing everybody needs to know if they plan on playing, so clearly I have taken away useful information from reading these threads.

But. It's not realistic, is it. I don't think Nikola Tesla's death rays were in operation, swatting the 301st->nth fighters infallibly out of the fray. From a realism point of view, from a sheer common sense point of view, that seems like a rather serious flaw to me. That people defend the tesla coils/Hand of God seems rather odd to me. You can't really truly think that in any WW2 CAP the 301st fighter mystically never counted. (Actually it used to be the 201st.) Really talk about cutting off the home islands and whatever strikes me as irrelevant. It's not a strategic issue, its a 'wow, game reality is kinda trippy' issue, and given how many CVs you got in 1944, you WILL encounter it one way or another. It's another piece of information that must be filed away by the player. At least we actually know about it now.

Of course you can argue that such big fights are unrealistic and that they shouldn't happen. I've never argued for huge fights to necessarily be modelled better, and would be quite happy if what was done was ensure they never happened in the first place. But as it is, you're relying on workarounds and houserules and awareness of arcane constants tucked away into the code to fix things.

Of course, maybe it'll never change. Whatever. TheElf posted a thread asking for opinions, I gave mine in good faith. Whether it is acted on or not - whatever. Obviously I'd rather something be done, but neither will my heart be broken if it wasn't. I'm aware of the workarounds.
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