locked up?

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GBS
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RE: locked up?

Post by GBS »

Can't wait to see how this turns out. This behavior is one of the things that turn me off about a year age but since the patch and HTTR I haven't noticed it, until this. I haven't tried this scenario yet.
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simovitch
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RE: locked up?

Post by simovitch »

phoenix, I'm not sure but I think the AT gun may have something to do with it. And I think it is a bit much to expect the AI to make the decision to detach the support companies to a higher command, especially if you are choosing to direct the Battalion in the field.

Maybe I'm a bit more lenient to this kind of delay happening than some people are. I doubt that real WW2 warfare is even remotely as tidy as these situations portray. If the lockup occurs without appropriate messaging for over 6 hours i would report it as a possible bug, otherwise I shake my fist at the screen wondering why things are not going the way the timetable says they should.

But I agree it would be nice to know WHY the UI is reporting the halting.[:)]
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Phoenix100
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RE: locked up?

Post by Phoenix100 »

Ok. I'll try it without the gun.

I used to have the same attitude to delays etc, but running the game slowly and playing the scenarios properly, and joining in the discussions in here does tend to encourage a bit of head scratching. I didn't report it as a bug, I just queried it - it was moved to here by Dave.

I've sent 3 saves to you now, Dave. Hope they land ok.
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Arjuna
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RE: locked up?

Post by Arjuna »

I've got them. Hopefully I can get to these early next week.
Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
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nate25
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RE: locked up?

Post by nate25 »

All,
 
Could someone please send instructions on how to take a "screenie" from your game?
 
I'd like to display my progress in "From the Meuse to the Rhine.
 
I don't have issues getting downtown into Arnhem.
 
I think it would be relevant to this thread.
 
Thanks, in advance,
Nate
I have a subtle and cunning plan.
Phoenix100
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RE: locked up?

Post by Phoenix100 »

Press prnt screen, that saves it to the clipboard, then paste it into a program like Paint. Mess around with it (crop is very useful) then save it as a GIF, to make sure it's small enough to upload. That's what i do. Be keen to see your route into Arnhem.

I'm trying it again.... The troops go much faster without the guns, as Richard suggested, and so far no 'lock ups' (though I'm sure it wasn't a lock up and Arjuna will in due course enlighten me..), but I'm not going to get the bridge. It's dusk day 1 and the germans are flooding into Arnhem.

Probably you should post it starting a new thread in war reports or AARs, Nate, not here, as this is technical, bugs and stuf.
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nate25
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RE: locked up?

Post by nate25 »

phoenix,

Thanks man. I'll try that. I'm not the most computer literate person.

I have to give orders at bn. level at a minimum, and orders to individual cos./plts. depending on how early Spindler shows up. It's a huge pain and time consuming, but it's the only way I have figured out to cut the bridge off.

I'd like to see your route into Nijmegen. I cannot get there! I've never been able to fight past the line Kapal - De Ploeg - Driehuizen.

Thanks,
Nate
I have a subtle and cunning plan.
Phoenix100
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RE: locked up?

Post by Phoenix100 »

I've a feeling that the timing on Arnhem might affect Nijmegan. So, I notice many Axis units crossing at Arnhem en route to Nijmegan. It may be that I'm getting in the vicinity of Arnhem Road bridge too quickly, and these units that were headed for Nijmegan then stop and fight me in Arnhem. That way I don't get near the Arnhem Road bridge, but there's less defence of Nijmegan.

All I've done to take Nijmegan is the most obvious orders. As and when each battallion of the 508 drop (they're the nearest - I'm playing on historical, everything standard, inc orders delay) I give each battallion orders to sieze the bridge, setting the sieze objective at the other side of the river, over the bridge. Then I leave the three battallions to do just that, which they have every run, so far. I click 'secure crossing' to do this, then set aggro to min (so they don't get distracted starting fights along the way), tick 'bypass', so they can reroute round the enemy, and 'none' for rest. I click 'quickest and fastest' in the route options. They take the bridge before midnight day 1. So far....
Phoenix100
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RE: locked up?

Post by Phoenix100 »

So, Dave. Any chance of you looking at the saves I sent you, as I'm still getting lots of fallow periods where units are doing nothing at all, it seems, though all indicators show them as doing something? Just wondering whether you think you will get time to look at this? It's especially noticeable, I think, playing the monster scenario - From the Rhine to the Meuse - and so irritating (in default of an explanation) that I've stopped playing that now and have sought out smaller scenarios instead. Thanks.
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Arjuna
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RE: locked up?

Post by Arjuna »

Sorry phoenix I haven't had time this week. Next week will be better. Thanks for reminding me.
Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
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Phoenix100
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RE: locked up?

Post by Phoenix100 »

Thanks Dave. Much appreciated.
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Arjuna
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RE: locked up?

Post by Arjuna »

phoenix,

Finally got a moment to look into this issue. Interesting. I can confirm that it is not a formation lockup. From here on it gets complicated though.

You ordered the 2Bn to use the quickest route to the bridge and you authorised it to bypass if necessary. The problem is that the vanguard, B Coy, gets to a point or starts at a point where the route will cause him to head towards a visible enemy threat in the woods NNW of its position. wAt this point the respective unit radius are very close to each other. They are within the 250m standOff range. This is new code I introduced into BFTB to prevent units from crashing into each other. So it halts. Unfortunately I had failed to include a line of code that I use in similar reaction code to force a reassessment by the unit. In other words, if you are stopped then try and do something else.

So I added this line of code. Sure enough B Coy decides to reassess. But he fails to bypass on his own initiative and calls some code to bring his boss's reassessment forward. All good. However, two subsequent issues arose. First one was that you had issued a Quickest route task parameter and this was overriding the bypass option. I don't believe that it should do so. So I have changed that now for human players.

The second issue is more profound and I am going to have to spend more time assessing how best to address it. Basically it's due to the way we manage the end time of human player tasks. This code goes back to the dark ages as far as the code base for this engine is concerned and it has a history of sorts. Originally we set the end time of a task to be whatever the start was plus the likely duration. However, we found that if this was unduly short then we ended up with a lot of processing to continually slip the end. So we decided to instead set the end of player tasks to be that of the scenario. After all there can never be more than one player task per unit. This situation will have to change when we introduce sequential tasking for the player anyway. I probably need to bite the bullet now and do so because it is having a profound effect on the bypass code for player tasks.

The reason this happens is that we use a test to see if the force is making progress and if it's not then we test to see if we should bypass. Alas the code to determine if we are making progress relies on a comparison between the "remainingDuration" and the "estimatedCompletedDuration". If the remainingDuration is greater then we're ahead of schedule. If less then we're behind. With player tasks using the scenario end they invariable end up ahead of schedule and hence don't bother to tyest for the bypass.

This will have to change. But I need to think about this some more. I hope to do so and work up a fix next week.
Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com
Phoenix100
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RE: locked up?

Post by Phoenix100 »

Thanks so much, Dave. At least I have a diagnosos. Now I know I'm not mad, it's not all in my head. I don't understand much of what you said, of course. Is it that the lead units halt the formation on contact then get a bit stuck because they think they have until the end of the game to resolve the issue? Either way, I see it all over now - just long lines of 'halted' in the msg box - it really is driving me mad. It certainly looks like they think they have all the time in the world to get there!! . Until you do the fix can I avoid it by not using bypass? Maybe use avoidance for the planning instead and make do?
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RangerX3X
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RE: locked up?

Post by RangerX3X »

Just one thing to note regarding 2 Para Bn HQ as implemented in this mission. It starts out at 75% of the estab with a staff quality rating of only 70%. The commander setting for John Frost has leadership only at a “good” rating of 64% and judgment only at a “good” rating of 72%.

The other sub units of the battalion fare worse in the ratings department for staff quality with the companies coming in at 58%, 59% and 65% respectively, while the mortar platoon is at 56% and the anti-tank battery is at 57%.

The point I am trying to make here is that in terms of staff quality, the battalion is not of “crack” or “elite” status as represented in this mission. Furthermore the entire battalion is only at 68-83% of their individual establishments for personnel.

I would tend to agree that adding additional units to the battalion or having them trudge through enemy territory with anything other than an attack command while lugging around AT and mortar units could bog down the AI subordinate commander.

And quite possibly there could be one unit out of all of them much more fatigued than the others which could slow the whole thing to a crawl while at the battalion level fatigue would appear not to be a concern.

Now that I read Dave's post above my response seems like rubbish [:)]
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Phoenix100
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RE: locked up?

Post by Phoenix100 »

Well, not rubbish, as I did try Richard's suggestion and ran it all without the baggage - they went faster, but they still had this 'halted' 'halted' 'halted' problem.
Phoenix100
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RE: locked up?

Post by Phoenix100 »

More on this issue, Dave. I really hope you can work up a fix, because it's driving me mad - so much so I'm reluctant to play any bigger scenarios now. I tried to avoid giving orders with the 'attack', 'bypass' 'ambush' boxes checked to see if that made any difference, but it made none. So, even if I just give an order to move, or secure a crossing, and pick only 'quickest' and fastest or fastest and avoidance etc, with no rest, then what I still see is huge lines of stalled troops when I try to play From the Meuse to the Rhine. When I check their logs I see long lines of 'halted'. I went to Joe's Bridge to see if it happened there and it did, though not as much. All the formations do eventually get to where they should be going, but there are hours and hours when they are just halted (sometimes as much as 12 hours, but more often between 3 and 5 hours), with no real explanation save 'halted'. I'm surprised nobody else is mentioning this. It's a new feature for me - that is, I'm only noticing it now. I might have missed it before, but it's hard to miss in the bigger scenarios, especially if you play at slow speed, because you end up sitting there with perfectly good orders but nothing happening for hours at a time. I can get you more saves if you want - just let me know - but I hope your 'fix' will address it. Thanks.
Lieste
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RE: locked up?

Post by Lieste »

Sounds just like real world combat operations... hours of sitting about 'for no reason', a huge rush to get to the next location and more interminable waiting...

I think the phenomenon even has a name - 'hurry up and wait'. While it does sound like there is a fault which will be addressed, it is also possible that there are unreasonable expectations coming to the fore as well.
Phoenix100
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RE: locked up?

Post by Phoenix100 »

Could be, Lieste. But in which case - if they are actually doing something - then a message in the log would be best, I think - to make that clear. Since I started playing this series - way back with HTTR - formations have always behaved like this to a certain extent, I think - and I have always just put it down to real world modelling or whatever, but the delays are so long now, sometimes, that I begin to think that's no longer feasible. What could they be doing? Well, the most likely candidate, usually (and as Dave said had happened with 2 para in my original example) is that the lead elements run into something. Then what you see is activity with the lead element and everyone else stopped, strung out along the road behind, say. We must assume (and, again, Dave suggested this did happen) that the lead element thinks about it, solves the issue or sends back to HQ for instructions. HQ ponders, and everyone waits. I'm alright with all that. But then when nothing happens for another four hours I begin to wonder. Sometimes then the original engagement is finished and nothing is happening anywhere. My realworldometer - which is intuitive and not based on anything real at all, I admit - says that if a battallion is strung out along a road with, say, orders to secure a crossing five kilometres away by the fastest means, with a planing option to avoid contact, have no rest on the way, and leave stragglers behind, then if the lead company makes hostile contact and sends back for instructions a distance of only a kilometer to its HQ, I would hope to see something happening indicative of a plan by that HQ within a couple of hours. If nothing is happening five hours later then I could, of course, assume that the wires got cut by arty, all the runners were killed etc etc, repeatedly, but if this kind of thing happens often enough then I begin to think the norm is that five hour delay, and then I begin to wonder if it's a bug.
Lieste
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RE: locked up?

Post by Lieste »

One thing you can do/try is to detach the lead element(s) if they are hung up, when the trail of the column will continue attempting to engage/bypass etc. using the contacting element as a screen or fixing force.

The risk is a requirement to regroup and re-org the formation, or the potential for loss of the separated element.
The advantage is that the now 'defending' element is less vulnerable to fires, and will develop more firepower itself.
Phoenix100
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RE: locked up?

Post by Phoenix100 »

Will try that. Thanks.

Started playing FTMTTR through again this morning and so far I've taken all the major objectives, except the Arnhem Road Bridge (and, anyway, I always thought that was a bridge too far...) and haven't had as many of the standstill problems. So who knows. Maybe it isn't a bug, though I'm doing nothing different to all the other times, except making sure I uncheck the stragglers box for absolutely everything (in case that's what's slowing it all).

Much of the behaviour would be understandable, in a way. EG; I tell tell 1.505 PIR to march 8 kilometres and secure the Honinghutje bridge full speed. They march, make contact, start engaging, the lead element crosses the bridge, the others pause on the near bank. I assume they're re-orging to cross and secure the far bank with the lead element (I placed the objective on the far bank), but no, they just stand still for two hours. They've just marched 8 kilometres and had a little action, so I could understand them wanting to rest and regroup. But all the indicators tell me they're moving, when they're not. Except the log, which tells me they're halted. For two hours. Why? What are they doing? If I was told they were resting and regrouping I might accept it, but I'm not told that. I'm told they're getting on with the task, moving, in one indicator, but in the log that they're halted. It's irritating. Maybe they're taking a long late lunch, a petite dejeuner sur l'herb. The log should say that then - 'sunbathing', perhaps, or 'chatting, come back later'.....
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