Late War British Aircraft

[Terminus]

All of the redeployed 8th AF bomber groups were scheduled to rotate through CONUS and re-equip with B-29s. The whole thing with 8th AF deploying with Forts and Liberators is incorrect.

[dwg]

ORIGINAL: Terminus
the USN/USMC would not be giving their newest types to minor Commonwealth air forces. Not a chance.

Except that was precisely what they had been doing for years. RNZAF was flying F4U-1D Corsairs with P-51Ds en route as the war ended and P-51Ms on order, RAAF was flying B-24s, B-25s and P-51Ds (100 P-51Ds shipped in 44, though most production was intended to come from CAC). FAA was flying F4U-1D Corsairs (and at sea before US) and had been due to get F4U-4s, although these were diverted to USN use, Hellcats all the way up to the F6F-5N, and TBM-3 Avengers, RAF and RCAF in Europe were flying P-51D/K Mustangs, in India the dominant RAF and RIAF fighter was the P-47D Thunderbolt, with US 2 and 4 engined bombers such as the B-25J getting a lot of use pretty much everywhere, even when RAF priorities pushed the 4-engined types into second-line roles as happened with a lot of Liberators and pretty much all Fortresses. France had P-47D Thunderbolts and F-6 Mustangs, Russia, Mexico and Brazil had P-47Ds, China did get a lot of second line aircraft, but also was flying P-51Ds and B-25Js, And all of these transfers happened while these aircraft were the then newest types in US service and while significant numbers of US units were using theoretically older machines such as P-40s.

I'm not saying that the allied units would have priorities over the US forces, but the evidence is pretty overwhelming that supply to allied units proceeded in parallel with US deployment, not following it and I haven't seen any evidence to say this wouldn't happen with late-war variants, in fact the Kiwi P-51Ms say it was happening.

OTOH, the UK had its own late-War aircraft coming into service and the need to supply the RAF with Lend-Lease types had dropped to an extent, with RAF types able to take the place of many US aircraft. The one exception is perhaps a long-range escort fighter to parallel the P-51M/P-47N, but the Hornet would have some potential there.

[dwg]

ORIGINAL: YankeeAirRat
think the list would probably look like this:

Firefly Mk IV
MB Mk. 5
Supermarine Spiteful
Supermarine Attacker
Mustang Mk.X
Fairey Spearfish
Short Sturgeon
Short Shetland
Westland Wyvern

The Mustang X was just the developmental conversion with the Merlin, the likeliest Downfall Mustang would probably be the P-51M, likely as the Mustang VI. One aircraft no one has mentioned is the Highball Mosquito, which was actually in theatre when the war ended, equally Sea Mosquito TR.37s are a possibility in 1946, as are Tempest V and VI. Sadly there isn't much likelihood of the MB 5 making it, Martin-Baker didn't have the production arm to do it, so we'd need more extensive rewriting of history, equally the Wyvern was in development hell with forced engine changes. The CAC-15 possibly has a slightly greater likelihood in that CAC have a production arm. Seafang, Hornet, Sea Hornet and Firebrand are all in production by '46 and can be expected to arrive alongside other new aircraft.

If we drift away from a pure Downfall scenario into one in which the Allies aren't keeping up to the historic timetable (I favour a Russian collapse as a good way of doing this offscreen), then it not only becomes rather simpler to justify some of these designs, but it also means we can consider not just carrier-based Sea Furies, Attackers, Wyverns and Sea Hawks, but also the land-based versions historically proposed alongside them, together with the Vickers Windsor, as some of the historical development decisions can be revisited as no longer matching the ongoing scenario.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: YankeeAirRat
1. The initial shipment of the Atomic Bomb is lost at sea due to a storm or lost of the USS Indianapolis disappears out to sea

Like I said, not arguring for or against it, because any of these possibilities is way out in fantasy land.[;)]

Well, actually this one is not soooo far off with Indianapolis being sunk by I-58 on the return leg from
Guam...

Although admittedly with the A-bomb still on board they wouldn´t have stopped zigzagging. Still a bit of a mystery
to me why the did after delivering, more so without escorts.

[Andrew Brown]

On the subject of Commonwealth aircraft, the RAAF was gearing up to build and depoly Lincolns when the Pacific war ended. If it had continued this would presumably not have been as late as it was (end of 1946 onwards). See www.airforce.gov.au/raafmuseum/research/aircraft/series2/A73.htm

Andrew

[michaelm75au]

I wonder how much the RAF would have stripped their forces to send to Pacific after VE day in light of the possibility that the Russians might not have stayed put where they said they would stop. Especially if the Pacific War kept going for another year. And the Russia only took limited action there, enough to satisfy the conditions of the earlier US-British-Soviet agreements.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: dwg

ORIGINAL: Terminus
the USN/USMC would not be giving their newest types to minor Commonwealth air forces. Not a chance.

Except that was precisely what they had been doing for years. RNZAF was flying F4U-1D Corsairs with P-51Ds en route as the war ended and P-51Ms on order,

You are supporting Termy here. None of those planes were top line at the time they were given to the Commonwealth. They were giving the Commonwealth 51-D's when they were flying 51-H's ... etc. The 51-D' were coming from groups being upgraded to 51-H's. They would then send those 51-D's to Commonwealth. AFAIK, there are very few cases where Commonwealth units were flying the same planes at the same time as US units during the war. They were generally one step behind by design ...

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: dwg

ORIGINAL: Terminus
the USN/USMC would not be giving their newest types to minor Commonwealth air forces. Not a chance.

Except that was precisely what they had been doing for years. RNZAF was flying F4U-1D Corsairs with P-51Ds en route as the war ended and P-51Ms on order,

You are supporting Termy here. None of those planes were top line at the time they were given to the Commonwealth. They were giving the Commonwealth 51-D's when they were flying 51-H's ... etc. The 51-D' were coming from groups being upgraded to 51-H's. They would then send those 51-D's to Commonwealth. AFAIK, there are very few cases where Commonwealth units were flying the same planes at the same time as US units during the war. They were generally one step behind by design ...

I agree.
Actually, the USN would not be giving their newest types to even the USMC. With the possible exception of the Corsair for
obvious reasons.

[dwg]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

On the subject of Commonwealth aircraft, the RAAF was gearing up to build and depoly Lincolns when the Pacific war ended.

Victory Aircraft in Canada was also switching over to Lincolns (and Yorks).

[dwg]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: dwg

ORIGINAL: Terminus
the USN/USMC would not be giving their newest types to minor Commonwealth air forces. Not a chance.

Except that was precisely what they had been doing for years. RNZAF was flying F4U-1D Corsairs with P-51Ds en route as the war ended and P-51Ms on order,

You are supporting Termy here. None of those planes were top line at the time they were given to the Commonwealth. They were giving the Commonwealth 51-D's when they were flying 51-H's ... etc. The 51-D' were coming from groups being upgraded to 51-H's. They would then send those 51-D's to Commonwealth.

Wrong, I'm afraid. The US brought the P-51H in very late in the war, and only in the Pacific, by which time many RAF and RAAF squadrons, in ETO, MTO and Pacific, had had the Mustang IV or P-51D in service for almost a year. Not only were latest versions of multiple marques being delivered simultaneously, but the deliveries were overwhelmingly direct from the factories (for instance over 900 out of around a thousand Avengers were delivered direct to the UK at Roosevelt Field).

Let's run through some entry into service dates:

Mustang:
P-51 (Mustang I/1A) USAF 12-41 (actually RAF Mustang 1As) RAF 2-42
P-51A (Mustang II) USAF ? (1st mission 11-43) RAF 5-44
A-36 USAF 4-43
P-51B/C (Mustang III) USAF 9-43 RAF Late 43
P-51D/K (Mustang IV) USAF <6-44 RAF 9-44 RAAF 11-44 RNLAF <8-45, RNZAF 9-45 CNAF <8-45
P-51H/L USAF 8-45 RAF 1 delivered
P-51M USAF On order RNZAF On order (-H with -9A engine)

Thunderbolt
P-47D/G (Thunderbolt I/II) USAF 2-43 RAF 2-44 AdlA 3-44 FAB 10-44 FAM 4-45 USSR 11-44
P-47M USAF 1-45
P-47N USAF 1-45

Corsair
F4U-1 (Corsair I)US 10-42 FAA 6-43
F4U-1A/B (Corsair II) US 4-43 FAA 11-43
F4U-1C US 4-1945
F4U-1D (Corsair III/IV) US 4-44 FAA 4-44 RNZAF 5-44
F4U-4 US 11-1944

Avenger:
TBF-1 (Tarpon/Avenger TR I) USN 4-42 FAA 1-43
TBF/M-1C (Avenger TR II) USN 9-43, FAA ? RNZAF 9-43
TBM-3E (Avenger TB III) USN ? FAA ?

And so on, Commonwealth and other Allied squadrons repeatedly had US models in service within a handful of months of the first US deployment and many months before the introduction of later models. These were deliveries from new, and not hand-me-downs.

[YankeeAirRat]

So you guys are saying that aircraft painted like these schemes would not have potentially happened if the war went into 1946 or even 1947?
Oh and most of these came from a scale modeling forum that I belong to as part of a "What-if" thread. Some of these are marked with thier artists name and some of them aren't. These are posted as part of fair usage and are not to be duplicated without the artists approval. Of which I don't think I have thier emails for anymore, sorry guys.

Anyhow,


A Royal Canadian Navy Tigercat


A Royal Navy Tigercat


A South African Navy Bearcat.

[oldman45]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

I wonder how much the RAF would have stripped their forces to send to Pacific after VE day in light of the possibility that the Russians might not have stayed put where they said they would stop. Especially if the Pacific War kept going for another year. And the Russia only took limited action there, enough to satisfy the conditions of the earlier US-British-Soviet agreements.

Admiral Kings book about the war talked about the pressure Churchill was putting on the US to end the war in the pacific because of the threat he saw in the Soviets.

[YankeeAirRat]

ORIGINAL: oldman45

ORIGINAL: michaelm

I wonder how much the RAF would have stripped their forces to send to Pacific after VE day in light of the possibility that the Russians might not have stayed put where they said they would stop. Especially if the Pacific War kept going for another year. And the Russia only took limited action there, enough to satisfy the conditions of the earlier US-British-Soviet agreements.

Admiral Kings book about the war talked about the pressure Churchill was putting on the US to end the war in the pacific because of the threat he saw in the Soviets.

If you read "Hell to Pay" the author there talks about about how both Marshall and King didn't want any more involvement of the Brits beyond the BPF and Tiger Force. They would have been more then happy to take the Canadians, Kiwis, Ozzies and a few other of the commonwealth nations. They would have also accepted token naval forces from the French and Dutch. The reason given via his research is that no one in the JCS nor in the US Department of State wanted to be seen by those in Asia supporting the re-establishment of the colonial system. However, circumstances outside of thier view and control (namely the Battle of the Bulge and the need for additional forces in Europe lead to stripping of a pair of divisions originally slated for Downfall) lead to the request for additional British ground forces to support the landings. With the British Army Overseas the RAF pushed for a greater show in the region and the USAAF planners saw that by having the Brits on hand to provide CAP of the bases in places like Okinawa and a other islands that the plans called for basing Fighter Bombers out of it would free up more US aircraft for the ground missions and anti-kamikaze missions.

[packerpete]

Not trying to disagree here, but I thought I would point out that the Avengers were being pushed out of front line service by the Helldivers because they could both dive bomb and drop torpedoes as well as having a smaller deck spot and longer range on the larger Carriers. The numerous teething pains of the Helldiver held up this modernization to the point that SDB Dauntlesses were still on carrier decks at the end of the war. Avengers and Dauntlesses probably would still have had a role on the CVE's and with the Marines until the end of the war.

[witpqs]

In the game, can a DB even use a torpedo or is that "a line of code too far"?

[YankeeAirRat]

I don't think I have every heard of a Dive bomber in RL using a torpedo. I think he has it wrong and it should be the other way. The Avengers had a smaller deck spot and the Helldivers were slowly phased out of the fleet roles by more Fighters and the Avengers could glide bomb and do a torpedo attack as needed by late 1944 into 1945.

[oldman45]

I agree, the Avengers were being used for close air-support because they could bomb, carry rockets and in a pinch even drop a torpedo. [;)]

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: dwg

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: dwg




Except that was precisely what they had been doing for years. RNZAF was flying F4U-1D Corsairs with P-51Ds en route as the war ended and P-51Ms on order,

You are supporting Termy here. None of those planes were top line at the time they were given to the Commonwealth. They were giving the Commonwealth 51-D's when they were flying 51-H's ... etc. The 51-D' were coming from groups being upgraded to 51-H's. They would then send those 51-D's to Commonwealth.

Wrong, I'm afraid. The US brought the P-51H in very late in the war, and only in the Pacific, by which time many RAF and RAAF squadrons, in ETO, MTO and Pacific, had had the Mustang IV or P-51D in service for almost a year. Not only were latest versions of multiple marques being delivered simultaneously, but the deliveries were overwhelmingly direct from the factories (for instance over 900 out of around a thousand Avengers were delivered direct to the UK at Roosevelt Field).

Let's run through some entry into service dates:

Mustang:
P-51 (Mustang I/1A) USAF 12-41 (actually RAF Mustang 1As) RAF 2-42
P-51A (Mustang II) USAF ? (1st mission 11-43) RAF 5-44
A-36 USAF 4-43
P-51B/C (Mustang III) USAF 9-43 RAF Late 43
P-51D/K (Mustang IV) USAF <6-44 RAF 9-44 RAAF 11-44 RNLAF <8-45, RNZAF 9-45 CNAF <8-45
P-51H/L USAF 8-45 RAF 1 delivered
P-51M USAF On order RNZAF On order (-H with -9A engine)

Thunderbolt
P-47D/G (Thunderbolt I/II) USAF 2-43 RAF 2-44 AdlA 3-44 FAB 10-44 FAM 4-45 USSR 11-44
P-47M USAF 1-45
P-47N USAF 1-45

Corsair
F4U-1 (Corsair I)US 10-42 FAA 6-43
F4U-1A/B (Corsair II) US 4-43 FAA 11-43
F4U-1C US 4-1945
F4U-1D (Corsair III/IV) US 4-44 FAA 4-44 RNZAF 5-44
F4U-4 US 11-1944

Avenger:
TBF-1 (Tarpon/Avenger TR I) USN 4-42 FAA 1-43
TBF/M-1C (Avenger TR II) USN 9-43, FAA ? RNZAF 9-43
TBM-3E (Avenger TB III) USN ? FAA ?

And so on, Commonwealth and other Allied squadrons repeatedly had US models in service within a handful of months of the first US deployment and many months before the introduction of later models. These were deliveries from new, and not hand-me-downs.

I agree, add that the RNZAF received the F2G1 Corsair in Aug-Sept 45.

As always withe these type of scenario, we have a totally ahistorical fantasy constrained by historical events, although Axis FB can dream up whatever fantasies got scribbled on a piece of rice paper.

It is possible that any US Aircraft could have been allocated to the rest of their ALLIES if it resulted in putting top line aircraft in the hands of top line and experienced Allied pilots.

Or do you want the Macarthur approach of freezing out your allies and making it an all american war.

[Dixie]

If only...

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Dixie

If only...

Wow. What are all these?