When?
Moderator: Shannon V. OKeets
RE: When?
Hey Manic, your thoughts are welcome, but remember this is a public forum so keep it clean and there's no reason to personally attack anyone. You may be right about the financial viability issue. We will have to wait and see. I can't believe you speak this way to the people you play WIF with in person. I'm sure it would not be tolerated.
- michaelbaldur
- Posts: 4800
- Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:28 pm
- Location: denmark
RE: When?
any thought is welcome .. but keep a civic tone
the wif rulebook is my bible
I work hard, not smart.
beta tester and Mwif expert
if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com
I work hard, not smart.
beta tester and Mwif expert
if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com
RE: When?
3 manyear are - in high cost country, surely ~ 300k USD full cost. if you add to this lisences and other stuff I guess the total costs come close to 500k USD for sure. With a retails price of 80 USD it should then sell ~ 8500 times to make some profit..... - This sounds achievable
Even if a real WIF round with 4 or 5 makes surely much more fun than a sole computer game - I will surely buy it
Even if a real WIF round with 4 or 5 makes surely much more fun than a sole computer game - I will surely buy it
-
- Posts: 22135
- Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 11:51 pm
- Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
- Contact:
RE: When?
Welcome to the forum.[:)]ORIGINAL: gguentner
3 manyear are - in high cost country, surely ~ 300k USD full cost. if you add to this lisences and other stuff I guess the total costs come close to 500k USD for sure. With a retails price of 80 USD it should then sell ~ 8500 times to make some profit..... - This sounds achievable
Even if a real WIF round with 4 or 5 makes surely much more fun than a sole computer game - I will surely buy it
Steve
Perfection is an elusive goal.
Perfection is an elusive goal.
- Sewerlobster
- Posts: 330
- Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 10:40 pm
- Location: Reading, Pa. USA
RE: When?
Hey, I may be obese, I may be opinionated, I may be American, I may be middle-aged .... but I am not armchair.
I do agree with gguentner, there has to be a number of units at a certain price that makes the game profitable. When, not if, it is released I'm betting I will be happy with the product and the price. I don't have any AI with my present editions -- if one is included in the first release or later it will be an improvement. And the rules refereeing will be worth the price outright.
What makes me happiest is how many bugs that Steve and the betas have eliminated. The open reporting by Steve of his trials and triumphs has made a believer out of me. I'm in as soon as it's available for payment. So 1 down and however many to go for profitability.
I do agree with gguentner, there has to be a number of units at a certain price that makes the game profitable. When, not if, it is released I'm betting I will be happy with the product and the price. I don't have any AI with my present editions -- if one is included in the first release or later it will be an improvement. And the rules refereeing will be worth the price outright.
What makes me happiest is how many bugs that Steve and the betas have eliminated. The open reporting by Steve of his trials and triumphs has made a believer out of me. I'm in as soon as it's available for payment. So 1 down and however many to go for profitability.
Why choose the lesser evil: Vote Cthulhu.
-
- Posts: 3191
- Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:39 pm
RE: When?
I don't know diddley about the game market; I really only play this game any more. But I do know how much people like playing World in Flames once they try; it has a pretty high repeat factor, imo. So the only way to grow it from hundreds or thousands is to get it out there.
One thing I like about a computer edition coming out is perhaps a bit of feature creep, but is something that can only come along after a full, rules-enforced game is published. I hope there will be somewhere out there that can keep copies of completed games; I would hope someone would be interested in using such a pile of data on results in the game to work on future improvements in the game. If an initial release comes out without an AI, such a trove of data could perhaps also somehow be used in AI development I would hope.
I think one thing that would help grow the base of players is a bit of focus on a somewhat neglected way to play the game: WiF Classic. This can get you into the game a lot faster than trying to dive into a game of Super Deluxe. I know some very good players who play Classic to have shorter games, and more of them. I like bells and whistles, so I don't see myself doing that anytime soon. But perhaps one of those pre-defined sets of Optional rules could be one for a pure Classic game, albeit with Ships in Flames. The lower counter density makes things easier to learn all around.
One thing I like about a computer edition coming out is perhaps a bit of feature creep, but is something that can only come along after a full, rules-enforced game is published. I hope there will be somewhere out there that can keep copies of completed games; I would hope someone would be interested in using such a pile of data on results in the game to work on future improvements in the game. If an initial release comes out without an AI, such a trove of data could perhaps also somehow be used in AI development I would hope.
I think one thing that would help grow the base of players is a bit of focus on a somewhat neglected way to play the game: WiF Classic. This can get you into the game a lot faster than trying to dive into a game of Super Deluxe. I know some very good players who play Classic to have shorter games, and more of them. I like bells and whistles, so I don't see myself doing that anytime soon. But perhaps one of those pre-defined sets of Optional rules could be one for a pure Classic game, albeit with Ships in Flames. The lower counter density makes things easier to learn all around.
RE: When?
I'm confused. Is there going to be an AI or not?
RE: When?
Hey Steve removing all those needless adjectives probably took you longer than doing the AI [:D]ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia
Hey Dudes.
Some of you might remember my user name. My real name's Tim, and I'm a keen WiFFE enthusiast who plays the game almost daily and who's attended both AusWiFCons, 2010 qnd 2011. I was part of an Allied Team that claimed a draw against skilled European opposition in 2010, and part of an Allied Team that won against Harry Rowland and two of his best freinds in 2011. I think that entitles me to speak with some gravity about WiFFE, regardless of whatever you 'solo' WiFFErs might hold as significant insights into how to play the game effectively.
This Computer WiF is a waste of space, commercially speaking. It won't work. I feel sorry for the guy who's been designing it for these last few years .. I love WiF, and I'd buy it myself, but you 'solo' game dreamers are deluded thinking that WiF has a sufficiently evolved market for a viable, commercial PC based distribution. Wake up: THERE ARE ONLY A FEW HUNDRED OF US. It doesn't. Sorry.
EDITED by Moderator to remove needless adjectives.
Bo
RE: When?
I have to say, I'm getting a little worried about this release.
Let's take the July 1st date to actually mean something, that leaves just 3 1/2 months of programming left. Is that really enough time to finish?
And if the July 1st date doesn't mean anything, why put it out there? Why this cryptic "no comment" after mentioning the date? Was it just a bubble to see what our reactions would be? I think we deserve better than that.
I was fine with the mantra of it will be done when Steve is finished.
Now it just seems like the mantra has changed to "We have to release something...anything...Now!" And this was obviously internal, as we WiFers have pretty much become apathetic towards a release date.
Let's face it most of us on this forum will buy whatever is released. I was hoping, after so many years in developement, for a successful product release that would justify continued support on the part of Matrix and Steve. But flip flopping on major business/marketing strategies this late in the process is not a good sign.
Let's take the July 1st date to actually mean something, that leaves just 3 1/2 months of programming left. Is that really enough time to finish?
And if the July 1st date doesn't mean anything, why put it out there? Why this cryptic "no comment" after mentioning the date? Was it just a bubble to see what our reactions would be? I think we deserve better than that.
I was fine with the mantra of it will be done when Steve is finished.
Now it just seems like the mantra has changed to "We have to release something...anything...Now!" And this was obviously internal, as we WiFers have pretty much become apathetic towards a release date.
Let's face it most of us on this forum will buy whatever is released. I was hoping, after so many years in developement, for a successful product release that would justify continued support on the part of Matrix and Steve. But flip flopping on major business/marketing strategies this late in the process is not a good sign.
-
- Posts: 22135
- Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 11:51 pm
- Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
- Contact:
RE: When?
Perhaps it would have been better if I had said nothing.ORIGINAL: gridley
I have to say, I'm getting a little worried about this release.
Let's take the July 1st date to actually mean something, that leaves just 3 1/2 months of programming left. Is that really enough time to finish?
And if the July 1st date doesn't mean anything, why put it out there? Why this cryptic "no comment" after mentioning the date? Was it just a bubble to see what our reactions would be? I think we deserve better than that.
I was fine with the mantra of it will be done when Steve is finished.
Now it just seems like the mantra has changed to "We have to release something...anything...Now!" And this was obviously internal, as we WiFers have pretty much become apathetic towards a release date.
Let's face it most of us on this forum will buy whatever is released. I was hoping, after so many years in developement, for a successful product release that would justify continued support on the part of Matrix and Steve. But flip flopping on major business/marketing strategies this late in the process is not a good sign.
As for my "no comment", I just don't want to get involved in a long discussion about the zillion of possible questions/issues related to the initial MWIF product release. I have neither the time nor the inclination.[:)]
Steve
Perfection is an elusive goal.
Perfection is an elusive goal.
RE: When?
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Perhaps it would have been better if I had said nothing.ORIGINAL: gridley
I have to say, I'm getting a little worried about this release.
Let's take the July 1st date to actually mean something, that leaves just 3 1/2 months of programming left. Is that really enough time to finish?
And if the July 1st date doesn't mean anything, why put it out there? Why this cryptic "no comment" after mentioning the date? Was it just a bubble to see what our reactions would be? I think we deserve better than that.
I was fine with the mantra of it will be done when Steve is finished.
Now it just seems like the mantra has changed to "We have to release something...anything...Now!" And this was obviously internal, as we WiFers have pretty much become apathetic towards a release date.
Let's face it most of us on this forum will buy whatever is released. I was hoping, after so many years in developement, for a successful product release that would justify continued support on the part of Matrix and Steve. But flip flopping on major business/marketing strategies this late in the process is not a good sign.
As for my "no comment", I just don't want to get involved in a long discussion about the zillion of possible questions/issues related to the initial MWIF product release. I have neither the time nor the inclination.[:)]
Of course it would have been better if you aren't ready. In case you have forgotten, you decided not to give release dates after you missed July 1st, 2009, then Sept 2009. I know that sounds snippy, which is not like me, but I thought it had to be said.
No one forced you to respond to Joseignacio request. You could have wisely ignored it like the previous hundred times it had been asked. But something did make you respond this time.
I have followed your posts on this site for...a long time. I have seen your graphs. You have included us in many of your thought processes. I know you would not have given a July 1st date off the top of your head. You know what would be included with such a deadline. To announce it would cost you no time whatsover. If you aren't inclined, you wouldn't even have to read our long discussions and zillions of questions/issues either.
The bottom line is I really don't care what is to be included on an initial release, I'm going to buy it. However, I do believe you are making a mistake not anonouncing it. I remember the excitement on this board before your June 2009 update. It will take a few months for that excitement level to build again.
I also believe you are making a mistake if after all these years you are releasing a product you had not intended. But I do understand that sometimes compromises have to be made. I wish you the best and you will continue to have my support.
-
- Posts: 330
- Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 6:05 am
RE: When?
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
The When thread has 430,700+ hits and the Monthly Reports thread has 16,650+.ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia
Hey Dudes.
Some of you might remember my user name. My real name's Tim, and I'm a keen WiFFE enthusiast who plays the game almost daily and who's attended both AusWiFCons, 2010 qnd 2011. I was part of an Allied Team that claimed a draw against skilled European opposition in 2010, and part of an Allied Team that won against Harry Rowland and two of his best freinds in 2011. I think that entitles me to speak with some gravity about WiFFE, regardless of whatever you 'solo' WiFFErs might hold as significant insights into how to play the game effectively.
This Computer WiF is a waste of space, commercially speaking. It won't work. I feel sorry for the guy who's been designing it for these last few years .. I love WiF, and I'd buy it myself, but you 'solo' game dreamers are deluded thinking that WiF has a sufficiently evolved market for a viable, commercial PC based distribution. Wake up: THERE ARE ONLY A FEW HUNDRED OF US. It doesn't. Sorry.
EDITED by Moderator to remove needless adjectives.
The few hundred players you envision must spend a lot of time reading those posts over and over again.
Is 16,650+ the number of hits, or the number of monthly reports? Ha, I couldn't resist...
-
- Posts: 330
- Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 6:05 am
RE: When?
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Perhaps it would have been better if I had said nothing.ORIGINAL: gridley
I have to say, I'm getting a little worried about this release.
Let's take the July 1st date to actually mean something, that leaves just 3 1/2 months of programming left. Is that really enough time to finish?
And if the July 1st date doesn't mean anything, why put it out there? Why this cryptic "no comment" after mentioning the date? Was it just a bubble to see what our reactions would be? I think we deserve better than that.
I was fine with the mantra of it will be done when Steve is finished.
Now it just seems like the mantra has changed to "We have to release something...anything...Now!" And this was obviously internal, as we WiFers have pretty much become apathetic towards a release date.
Let's face it most of us on this forum will buy whatever is released. I was hoping, after so many years in developement, for a successful product release that would justify continued support on the part of Matrix and Steve. But flip flopping on major business/marketing strategies this late in the process is not a good sign.
As for my "no comment", I just don't want to get involved in a long discussion about the zillion of possible questions/issues related to the initial MWIF product release. I have neither the time nor the inclination.[:)]
No need for you to get into this discussion, now would be the perfect time for one of the Matrix crew to drop in for a visit. Been a couple years since their last comment in this forum, certainly someone from the marketing department could throw a bone to the patient dogs in this kennel. Gridley is right - something changed to merit dropping the tired "It's done when it's done line." With less than 4 months to go until D-Day, it's certainly not too early for Matrix to comment directly to the forum, if not officially via a press release.
Bo, it's good to see you're no longer writing ALL IN CAPS!!! When someone says to me "Old people can never adapt to new technology," I will point proudly to your achievements in reply.
Michael Baldur, now that Peyton Manning has played his last game and stands second to Eli in Super Bowl rings, don't you think it's time to change your sig?
- Joseignacio
- Posts: 2792
- Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 11:25 am
- Location: Madrid, Spain
RE: When?
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Perhaps it would have been better if I had said nothing.ORIGINAL: gridley
I have to say, I'm getting a little worried about this release.
Let's take the July 1st date to actually mean something, that leaves just 3 1/2 months of programming left. Is that really enough time to finish?
And if the July 1st date doesn't mean anything, why put it out there? Why this cryptic "no comment" after mentioning the date? Was it just a bubble to see what our reactions would be? I think we deserve better than that.
I was fine with the mantra of it will be done when Steve is finished.
Now it just seems like the mantra has changed to "We have to release something...anything...Now!" And this was obviously internal, as we WiFers have pretty much become apathetic towards a release date.
Let's face it most of us on this forum will buy whatever is released. I was hoping, after so many years in developement, for a successful product release that would justify continued support on the part of Matrix and Steve. But flip flopping on major business/marketing strategies this late in the process is not a good sign.
As for my "no comment", I just don't want to get involved in a long discussion about the zillion of possible questions/issues related to the initial MWIF product release. I have neither the time nor the inclination.[:)]
Thanks for the info, sorry about the problems my question may have brought,
Steve, I think you simply should keep on doing your excellent job and let people wait 4 months more. It's obvious some will have some doubts and others will complain. It's obvious too, that after some days most troll shaped comments will decrease and we'll come back to almost normality (considering the excitation about a game wished for so long that is finally arriving).
Don't lose hart so close to completion. You rule!!!
- Red Prince
- Posts: 3686
- Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:39 am
- Location: Bangor, Maine, USA
RE: When?
I'm going to try to respond to this, not on Steve's behalf, but of my own volition. Since I am not Steve or a Matrix employee, I have to adhere to the Non-Disclosure Agreement, and that might make what I have to say seem a little cryptic, so I'm going to apologize for that before I say anything.ORIGINAL: gridley
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Perhaps it would have been better if I had said nothing.ORIGINAL: gridley
I have to say, I'm getting a little worried about this release.
Let's take the July 1st date to actually mean something, that leaves just 3 1/2 months of programming left. Is that really enough time to finish?
And if the July 1st date doesn't mean anything, why put it out there? Why this cryptic "no comment" after mentioning the date? Was it just a bubble to see what our reactions would be? I think we deserve better than that.
I was fine with the mantra of it will be done when Steve is finished.
Now it just seems like the mantra has changed to "We have to release something...anything...Now!" And this was obviously internal, as we WiFers have pretty much become apathetic towards a release date.
Let's face it most of us on this forum will buy whatever is released. I was hoping, after so many years in developement, for a successful product release that would justify continued support on the part of Matrix and Steve. But flip flopping on major business/marketing strategies this late in the process is not a good sign.
As for my "no comment", I just don't want to get involved in a long discussion about the zillion of possible questions/issues related to the initial MWIF product release. I have neither the time nor the inclination.[:)]
Of course it would have been better if you aren't ready. In case you have forgotten, you decided not to give release dates after you missed July 1st, 2009, then Sept 2009. I know that sounds snippy, which is not like me, but I thought it had to be said.
No one forced you to respond to Joseignacio request. You could have wisely ignored it like the previous hundred times it had been asked. But something did make you respond this time.
I have followed your posts on this site for...a long time. I have seen your graphs. You have included us in many of your thought processes. I know you would not have given a July 1st date off the top of your head. You know what would be included with such a deadline. To announce it would cost you no time whatsover. If you aren't inclined, you wouldn't even have to read our long discussions and zillions of questions/issues either.
The bottom line is I really don't care what is to be included on an initial release, I'm going to buy it. However, I do believe you are making a mistake not anonouncing it. I remember the excitement on this board before your June 2009 update. It will take a few months for that excitement level to build again.
I also believe you are making a mistake if after all these years you are releasing a product you had not intended. But I do understand that sometimes compromises have to be made. I wish you the best and you will continue to have my support.
-----
I think there have been a lot of signs that MWiF is closing on a release date over the last 6 months. A good example of this is the work that Steve and the beta-testers did to finish up the Players Manual last summer, and his announcement in the Montly Reports that it had gone to the Matrix Games editors. You can't have a manual without a game that works the way you expect it to work, can you? Other indications are the Barbarossa AAR that Orm and I ran in the early autumn, the one I am running now, and the fact that bugs have started to trickle down to the "rules violation" variety instead of the "game crash" type. Also, some of the most annoying large-scale issues have been dealt with: supply, Vichy Declaration, and most of the Production Planning issues are now cleared up. Yes, a few remain, but there's still time to finish those up.
If you look back through the Monthly Reports, there are even more indications.
In November, Steve announced the addition of sound effects to the game. That's pure chrome, and that kind of thing can only mean that the game is coming close to completion. How close, I can't say. That isn't just due to the NDA I signed, but because there still could be bumps in the road ahead.
In July, Steve settled on the Optional Rules that would not be included in the initial release. He also listed the ones he hoped to include if he could. That's another good indication that things are winding down to a finish. Unfortunately, Steve had some serious health issues the next 2 months, and that limited the time he could put in to some extent. I have to say, though, that the entire beta-test team did a good job picking up the slack.
There are, however, a lot of things that remain to be determined. Which rules are going to be included and which aren't going to make the cut? How quickly can we finalize all of the standardized screen layouts, tutorials, and "educational" material? (Some is completely finished, but some isn't). There is a lot of work still to be done. Much of this work relies on volunteers, and there are any number of things that can interfere with a volunteer's ability to contribute to his potential (pneumonia, for instance [;)] ).
-----
I'll tell you the truth. It was a surprise to see Steve post his expectations here, but I don't truly think it was unfair of him to say that he wouldn't speak more on the subject. He has more important work to do than to try to describe everything that will be included in the initial release. I don't mean that to be offensive. Just ask yourself which you would prefer: Do you want a full accounting of the product Steve expects to deliver? Or would you rather have Steve spend that time finishing the product he expects to deliver?
Steve reads through everything that is posted in this forum, and he responds to as much as time allows. Believe me, it is a very time-consuming endeavor. In the work I've been doing on the Global War AAR, I'd say that anywhere from 1/2 to 2/3 of my time is spent creating detailed explanations of what is happening, not only for posting in the forum, but also for the notes I take on the progress of the game and any bugs I might encounter. Only about 1/3 of my "MWiF time" is actually spent running the game itself. I don't actually know how many lines of code MWiF has, but I know that Steve inserts notes on ideas he has for coding certain aspects of the program, and also on how some of the bug fixes were created so that he can reference it later if something should go wrong again.
Steve is also responsible to Matrix Games, himself, and the beta-testers for what he says (as we all are), not to mention the readers of these forums. None of us can just shoot off a quick post to answer questions, especially Steve. We have to put serious thought into what we say, so that we don't end up misleading anyone. That also takes time.
As to the level of involvement the people from Matrix should have in the forums, I really have no opinion. In my work as a beta-tester, I've found them to be fairly responsive to my needs, but I've had little need to contact them. Most of the questions or suggestions I've had went to Steve, and when it was appropriate, he referred me to the Matrix people.
-----
In conclusion:
I count myself very lucky to be involved in the process of helping to build this incredible game. Steve would not have said anything if he were not confident. (I think he learned his lesson on that one back in 2009 -- no, Steve, that isn't a dig). But I do know, based on my involvement, that Steve works daily, with a passion that I've never seen before, to get this finished as elegantly as possible. Please accept that, and know that your curiosity will be answered in time.
Thanks for reading this, and I hope it helps to clear up some of the confusion surrounding Steve's comments. I will apologize once again for anything that may have sounded cryptic, and I'd also like to apologize to Steve if I have said anything to mis-represent his views.
-Aaron
Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH
-Lazarus Long, RAH
RE: When?
I don't think you need to make any apologies. But I still think that Steve should take all the time he needs to get this done properly. If that means july, it's july. If it is later, than that's the time it takes.ORIGINAL: Red Prince
I'm going to try to respond to this, not on Steve's behalf, but of my own volition. Since I am not Steve or a Matrix employee, I have to adhere to the Non-Disclosure Agreement, and that might make what I have to say seem a little cryptic, so I'm going to apologize for that before I say anything.ORIGINAL: gridley
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Perhaps it would have been better if I had said nothing.
As for my "no comment", I just don't want to get involved in a long discussion about the zillion of possible questions/issues related to the initial MWIF product release. I have neither the time nor the inclination.[:)]
Of course it would have been better if you aren't ready. In case you have forgotten, you decided not to give release dates after you missed July 1st, 2009, then Sept 2009. I know that sounds snippy, which is not like me, but I thought it had to be said.
No one forced you to respond to Joseignacio request. You could have wisely ignored it like the previous hundred times it had been asked. But something did make you respond this time.
I have followed your posts on this site for...a long time. I have seen your graphs. You have included us in many of your thought processes. I know you would not have given a July 1st date off the top of your head. You know what would be included with such a deadline. To announce it would cost you no time whatsover. If you aren't inclined, you wouldn't even have to read our long discussions and zillions of questions/issues either.
The bottom line is I really don't care what is to be included on an initial release, I'm going to buy it. However, I do believe you are making a mistake not anonouncing it. I remember the excitement on this board before your June 2009 update. It will take a few months for that excitement level to build again.
I also believe you are making a mistake if after all these years you are releasing a product you had not intended. But I do understand that sometimes compromises have to be made. I wish you the best and you will continue to have my support.
-----
I think there have been a lot of signs that MWiF is closing on a release date over the last 6 months. A good example of this is the work that Steve and the beta-testers did to finish up the Players Manual last summer, and his announcement in the Montly Reports that it had gone to the Matrix Games editors. You can't have a manual without a game that works the way you expect it to work, can you? Other indications are the Barbarossa AAR that Orm and I ran in the early autumn, the one I am running now, and the fact that bugs have started to trickle down to the "rules violation" variety instead of the "game crash" type. Also, some of the most annoying large-scale issues have been dealt with: supply, Vichy Declaration, and most of the Production Planning issues are now cleared up. Yes, a few remain, but there's still time to finish those up.
If you look back through the Monthly Reports, there are even more indications.
In November, Steve announced the addition of sound effects to the game. That's pure chrome, and that kind of thing can only mean that the game is coming close to completion. How close, I can't say. That isn't just due to the NDA I signed, but because there still could be bumps in the road ahead.
In July, Steve settled on the Optional Rules that would not be included in the initial release. He also listed the ones he hoped to include if he could. That's another good indication that things are winding down to a finish. Unfortunately, Steve had some serious health issues the next 2 months, and that limited the time he could put in to some extent. I have to say, though, that the entire beta-test team did a good job picking up the slack.
There are, however, a lot of things that remain to be determined. Which rules are going to be included and which aren't going to make the cut? How quickly can we finalize all of the standardized screen layouts, tutorials, and "educational" material? (Some is completely finished, but some isn't). There is a lot of work still to be done. Much of this work relies on volunteers, and there are any number of things that can interfere with a volunteer's ability to contribute to his potential (pneumonia, for instance [;)] ).
-----
I'll tell you the truth. It was a surprise to see Steve post his expectations here, but I don't truly think it was unfair of him to say that he wouldn't speak more on the subject. He has more important work to do than to try to describe everything that will be included in the initial release. I don't mean that to be offensive. Just ask yourself which you would prefer: Do you want a full accounting of the product Steve expects to deliver? Or would you rather have Steve spend that time finishing the product he expects to deliver?
Steve reads through everything that is posted in this forum, and he responds to as much as time allows. Believe me, it is a very time-consuming endeavor. In the work I've been doing on the Global War AAR, I'd say that anywhere from 1/2 to 2/3 of my time is spent creating detailed explanations of what is happening, not only for posting in the forum, but also for the notes I take on the progress of the game and any bugs I might encounter. Only about 1/3 of my "MWiF time" is actually spent running the game itself. I don't actually know how many lines of code MWiF has, but I know that Steve inserts notes on ideas he has for coding certain aspects of the program, and also on how some of the bug fixes were created so that he can reference it later if something should go wrong again.
Steve is also responsible to Matrix Games, himself, and the beta-testers for what he says (as we all are), not to mention the readers of these forums. None of us can just shoot off a quick post to answer questions, especially Steve. We have to put serious thought into what we say, so that we don't end up misleading anyone. That also takes time.
As to the level of involvement the people from Matrix should have in the forums, I really have no opinion. In my work as a beta-tester, I've found them to be fairly responsive to my needs, but I've had little need to contact them. Most of the questions or suggestions I've had went to Steve, and when it was appropriate, he referred me to the Matrix people.
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In conclusion:
I count myself very lucky to be involved in the process of helping to build this incredible game. Steve would not have said anything if he were not confident. (I think he learned his lesson on that one back in 2009 -- no, Steve, that isn't a dig). But I do know, based on my involvement, that Steve works daily, with a passion that I've never seen before, to get this finished as elegantly as possible. Please accept that, and know that your curiosity will be answered in time.
Thanks for reading this, and I hope it helps to clear up some of the confusion surrounding Steve's comments. I will apologize once again for anything that may have sounded cryptic, and I'd also like to apologize to Steve if I have said anything to mis-represent his views.
-Aaron
Peter
- Joseignacio
- Posts: 2792
- Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 11:25 am
- Location: Madrid, Spain
RE: When?
I'll tell you the truth. It was a surprise to see Steve post his expectations here, but I don't truly think it was unfair of him to say that he wouldn't speak more on the subject. He has more important work to do than to try to describe everything that will be included in the initial release. I don't mean that to be offensive. Just ask yourself which you would prefer: Do you want a full accounting of the product Steve expects to deliver? Or would you rather have Steve spend that time finishing the product he expects to deliver?
It is not. Considering that giving a date is a valiant posture, since not everything is predictable and there was a previous serious error (whatever the reason was) he has done more than necessary.
It's true that most games give in advance a description of what they will include but this:
- Is an option that they select to do because they want to inform the followers, which is as well a marketing technicque.
- They are not facing the difficulties of developing a game like this, having one only programmer, and trying till last second to include as many options and improvements as possible. Yes, they also try to include this or that feature till edition time, but not as complex as the ones in WIF (and MWIF).
What the game includes or not, only needs to be said when the game is for sale. It would be nice to share it with us followers, but this is no "usual product", and real WIF fans can wait 4 more months and see. Newcomers sometimes no, then they can try to enhance their spirits through
RE: When?
Ah Jose, if that is really you sitting there looking at the sun? [&:] I am deeply impressed but I do have a question that I would appreciate an answer to. In the picture is the sun rising or setting? The reason for my question is if the sun is rising then you are sitting on the beach of Paseo Martimo in Valencia overlooking the gulf of Valencia, very lovely, but if the sun is setting you are sitting on the beach of Pointe de San Pedro in La Coruna overlooking the Atlantic Ocean, either way it looks like your asking the gods for atonement for asking that dreaded WHEN question[;)]ORIGINAL: Joseignacio
I'll tell you the truth. It was a surprise to see Steve post his expectations here, but I don't truly think it was unfair of him to say that he wouldn't speak more on the subject. He has more important work to do than to try to describe everything that will be included in the initial release. I don't mean that to be offensive. Just ask yourself which you would prefer: Do you want a full accounting of the product Steve expects to deliver? Or would you rather have Steve spend that time finishing the product he expects to deliver?
It is not. Considering that giving a date is a valiant posture, since not everything is predictable and there was a previous serious error (whatever the reason was) he has done more than necessary.
It's true that most games give in advance a description of what they will include but this:
- Is an option that they select to do because they want to inform the followers, which is as well a marketing technicque.
- They are not facing the difficulties of developing a game like this, having one only programmer, and trying till last second to include as many options and improvements as possible. Yes, they also try to include this or that feature till edition time, but not as complex as the ones in WIF (and MWIF).
What the game includes or not, only needs to be said when the game is for sale. It would be nice to share it with us followers, but this is no "usual product", and real WIF fans can wait 4 more months and see. Newcomers sometimes no, then they can try to enhance their spirits through
Bo