Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In?

[parusski]

Remember how surprising it was for an infantry squad to be killed when an aircraft drop tank fell onto their head(s).

Well I have grown to depend on killing infantry squads with drop tanks. New tactics needed...[8D]

[kevini1000]

So I guess it make no difference if Russian planes losses are 50% less now on turn 1. I guess a fix is only needed or counts if it help the Russian side now. Honestly anyone with half a brain understood what the prior 2 patches would do the turn 1 Russian aircraft losses and you all did it anyway. This is just flat out blatant now. There is actually some merrit to what Pelton is saying. He might not argue is best manner but you all are so convinced that this is the best course that you go right along.

[traemyn]

ORIGINAL: sath

So I guess it make no difference if Russian planes losses are 50% less now on turn 1. I guess a fix is only needed or counts if it help the Russian side now. Honestly anyone with half a brain understood what the prior 2 patches would do the turn 1 Russian aircraft losses and you all did it anyway. This just flat out blatant now. There is actually some merrit to what Pelton is saying. He might not argue is best manner but you all are so convinced that this is the best course that you go right along.

Can we please get some more responses from testers/dev on this change before sath starts handing out tinfoil hats? Thanks

[Timmeh]

careful, some glass stomachs might need to be installed...this way fanboys could see where they are going.

I dont believe a group with over 50% flight use will fly a bombing run... so its always going to have half its capacity left for dem udder missions? 2K plus is possible with a little coaching but now I need to choose between those crappy fighters up close that will be overrun first turn or more juicier bombers farther away. The more you go at those bomber bases farther back the more fighters up close will escape turn one.

Better play than obliterating the entire front first turn as was in the original release no?

[kevini1000]

ORIGINAL: traemyn

ORIGINAL: sath

So I guess it make no difference if Russian planes losses are 50% less now on turn 1. I guess a fix is only needed or counts if it help the Russian side now. Honestly anyone with half a brain understood what the prior 2 patches would do the turn 1 Russian aircraft losses and you all did it anyway. This just flat out blatant now. There is actually some merrit to what Pelton is saying. He might not argue is best manner but you all are so convinced that this is the best course that you go right along.

Can we please get some more responses from testers/dev on this change before sath starts handing out tinfoil hats? Thanks

Honestly that is straight up personel.

[traemyn]

I thought it was more of a light jab at the over-the-top tone your post conveyed. I apologize regardless.

[Flaviusx]

Well, I'm not entirely thrilled with these results either. It's not like I want another 2,000 biplanes and prewar junk. It takes forever as it is to run those inventories dry, this is just going to be more APs I have to spend for manual aircraft upgrades. The Luftwaffe was a silent partner in the Soviet air modernization program, now, not quite so much.

[Baron von Beer]

[:D] The new German tactic, drop spare parts and fuel instead of bombs so the Soviets have to fly I-15s even longer?

[csarebel]

ORIGINAL: Baron von Beer

[:D] The new German tactic, drop spare parts and fuel instead of bombs so the Soviets have to fly I-15s even longer?

LOL...thats a good one.

[jazman]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Well, I'm not entirely thrilled with these results either. It's not like I want another 2,000 biplanes and prewar junk. It takes forever as it is to run those inventories dry, this is just going to be more APs I have to spend for manual aircraft upgrades. The Luftwaffe was a silent partner in the Soviet air modernization program, now, not quite so much.

So would you recommend the Germans skip airfield bombing on turn 1 altogether? If 2000 junk planes is a bad thing, why isn't 4000 junk planes even worse?

[Flaviusx]

I wouldn't go that far.

From my perspective, all the Luftwaffe need do is smash the forward airfields and make sure no Soviet fighters can respond to their ground support and interdiction missions. Everything after that is just contributing to the Soviet air modernization program. Virtually nobody leaves air miles unused going into the Soviet turn -- and I'm extremely relieved of that because there's no interdiction to slow me down even more than is already the case with the crippled first turn movement rates. Luftwaffe interdiction is amazingly annoying.

Air supremacy is not synonymous with a huge casualty count on the enemy side; there's a point where this whole business of killing obsolete aircraft by direct bombing missions yields diminishing returns and arguably negative ones in terms of opportunity costs. I've long been bemused by the Axis fervor for driving up these surprise air attack numbers. Beyond that the most effective way to keep the Red Air Force off balance is to overrun airfields and force others to redeploy backwards to avoid getting overrun, it is the disruption caused by the ground advance that really hurts more than anything else.

[Farfarer61]

ORIGINAL: jazman

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Well, I'm not entirely thrilled with these results either. It's not like I want another 2,000 biplanes and prewar junk. It takes forever as it is to run those inventories dry, this is just going to be more APs I have to spend for manual aircraft upgrades. The Luftwaffe was a silent partner in the Soviet air modernization program, now, not quite so much.

So would you recommend the Germans skip airfield bombing on turn 1 altogether? If 2000 junk planes is a bad thing, why isn't 4000 junk planes even worse?

LFMAO. Brilliant!!!
Irony AND logic - wonderful. +1

Lets demand "No manual upgrade option for the Red Air Force. This will ensure full historical OOB." [full disclosure - I leave it all on auto and forget about it anyway. It is ALL good if you have enough of it.]

[johnnyvagas]

ORIGINAL: jazman

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Well, I'm not entirely thrilled with these results either. It's not like I want another 2,000 biplanes and prewar junk. It takes forever as it is to run those inventories dry, this is just going to be more APs I have to spend for manual aircraft upgrades. The Luftwaffe was a silent partner in the Soviet air modernization program, now, not quite so much.

So would you recommend the Germans skip airfield bombing on turn 1 altogether? If 2000 junk planes is a bad thing, why isn't 4000 junk planes even worse?

[:D] The Axis should also lend-lease over to the Russians some of the more craptaculor aircraft types from Romanians, Hungarians, Italians, etc. That would really confound Flavo’s air war strategy.

[mmarquo]

The Axis player should also wipe out the Soviet recon units; other than that...


Marquo

[carlkay58]

If you are playing the Barbarossa scenario rather than the Grand Campaign, you get +1 VP/5 planes destroyed. So the Axis are losing 200+ VPs leaving 1000 Soviet planes laying around.

[Farfarer61]

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

If you are playing the Barbarossa scenario rather than the Grand Campaign, you get +1 VP/5 planes destroyed. So the Axis are losing 200+ VPs leaving 1000 Soviet planes laying around.
if 2000

An artificial and silly VP item for GC. I am waiting for reply on if 2000 is ad why isnt 4000 worse.

[jazman]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I wouldn't go that far.

Perhaps you meant:

"I wouldn't want my opponents to go that far."

[:D]

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

If you are playing the Barbarossa scenario rather than the Grand Campaign, you get +1 VP/5 planes destroyed. So the Axis are losing 200+ VPs leaving 1000 Soviet planes laying around.
if 2000

An artificial and silly VP item for GC. I am waiting for reply on if 2000 is ad why isnt 4000 worse.

My guess. AP wise it doesn't matter if you upgrade a group with 5 planes or one with 40.

[Flaviusx]

Farfarer, I have responded to this.

Look up the phrase "opportunity cost."

[Mehring]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I wouldn't go that far.

From my perspective, all the Luftwaffe need do is smash the forward airfields and make sure no Soviet fighters can respond to their ground support and interdiction missions. Everything after that is just contributing to the Soviet air modernization program. Virtually nobody leaves air miles unused going into the Soviet turn -- and I'm extremely relieved of that because there's no interdiction to slow me down even more than is already the case with the crippled first turn movement rates. Luftwaffe interdiction is amazingly annoying.

Air supremacy is not synonymous with a huge casualty count on the enemy side; there's a point where this whole business of killing obsolete aircraft by direct bombing missions yields diminishing returns and arguably negative ones in terms of opportunity costs. I've long been bemused by the Axis fervor for driving up these surprise air attack numbers. Beyond that the most effective way to keep the Red Air Force off balance is to overrun airfields and force others to redeploy backwards to avoid getting overrun, it is the disruption caused by the ground advance that really hurts more than anything else.

Up to a point. Playing German I always used first turn to destroy Russian recce and heavy bombers, flying deep inland to do so. These planes remain useful to a player who knows how to use them.

As for the rest of post patch, playing Russian I noticed reduced air losses first turn from what I was used to. Otherwise, Germans who understand how the game works can steamroll at a ridiculous rate, just as ever. I'm now awaiting turn 4 from Germany, expecting worst scenario- evacuation rail link out from Leningrad to be cut, Smolensk taken, the Dnepr crossed near Moghilev and Cherkassy, Kiev contested and units adjacent to Zaporozhye, preventing evacuation.

I never played a German that knew how to do this before and I don't think I could have last time I played German. The Russian side has got progressively weaker in 1941 when it should always have been made stronger and the German players who couldn't achieve great results sent to war game school.