OT: Russian carrier Admiral Kusnetsov

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

There is another tactic which I am sure 5th Fleet is concerned about which the Iranians are geared towards using. Understanding that a CV would not normally operate in restricted waters such as the Persian Gulf, since the Fleet HQ and home port is within those restricted waters it creates a little dilemma for a carrier going through the Strait of Hormuz and the Iranians go with an asymmetric attack with swarm tactics by small boats. Don't know how many 25 footers with high speed torpedoes you need to take down a CVBG transiting the Strait but it could be interesting!

BTW....Hey Steve, we haven't had any more meet ups in DC!

Pete 

I recall about ten years or so ago there was a huge up set during an electronic wargame where the RED force mobbed a CVN group with Zodiac type boats and guys with RPG's. It upset people in the Pentagon so much that there were quite a few study groups looking into such unorthodox tactics and threats , and how to deal with them. Most 25 footers couldn't carry a torpedo (which a heavy weight anti-surface torpedo must be at least 25"). But they can carry rocket lauchers and Man portable anti-tank missiles.


I'm not exactly a DC resident lately , but give me till summer. Then I should be in DC every couple of months! [:D]

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

In fairness , the Kiev's were never intended to go toe to toe with USN flat tops. They were designed for a different mission, with a very different doctrine in mind.

Please keep in Mind that these ships were the brainchild of Sergi Goshkov (who kept a sign of his desk that read "Perfection is the enemy of good enough") Kruschev's head of the Navy. Where as Stalin wanted a big,blue water balanced fleet with battleships and carriers, Kruschev wanted none of that. Nothing larger than a Cruiser , "Which was only good for carting admirals around". So Goshkov was limited both by resources , and by politics. It's hard to lobby in favor of carriers when the party has just decreed them useless and symbols of Imperialism!

Goshkov was forced to rely on submarines and small craft rather than BB's and CV's. Missiles instead of bombers. So that's what he did. Build a big coastal defense Navy to force the CV's well back, limiting their nuclear attack aircraft. (The Soviets saw ALL war as leading to a nuclear confrontation. The question was always WHEN, never IF). And this worked well as long as the Navy faced CV's. Their own subs would raid u-boat style (joined by a few CL's and DDG's) on western convoys.

The Polaris came out. Big problem. Now you need to force them back, with landbased ASW , lots of cheap frigates , destroyers and Anti-submarine cruisers (The Soviets NEVER called them that, but Large ASW Patrol ships). Then Moskva and Leningrad , what we would call CHV's , (They would call them "Tactical aircraft carrying ASW Cruisers"--quite a mouthful, but still thinking ASW , not strike).

Eventually the Soviets would build SSBN's of their own (1st Yankee's which operated off Bermuda, then the Delta series , operating further and farther back from the USA) and gave their Navy a new job, protecting those SSBN's. ASW ships were good against western SSN's and SS's, and the surface ships with their long range missiles could threaten ASW CV's (Like the ASW Essex's and latter the British Invincibles) , but could do nothing against flocks of P-3's,Nimrods and Atlantic's.

So enter the Kiev class. Their main battery was not the Yak-36 (or sometimes called YAK 38) Forger VTOL planes they carried, but those same "crappy" missiles that Terminus refers to. They were quite a threat to USN CV's. And these ships carried what was considered a massive battery of AAA and AS missile in their day. And along with the usual Hormone and Helix ASW and early warning aircraft , we had the YAK's. No threat to F-14's,F-4's, or even Harriers and Sea Harriers. But to P-3's, Nimrods and other Maritime patrol aircraft and Helicopters? A huge bloody threat! (I speak from 1st hand experince!).

With the later Delta's and eventual the Typhoon class, the Soviets were able to retreat into "Bastions" just outside their harbors where ASW aircraft couldn't go , and SSN's did so at their extreme peril. Later , the Soviets got the bright idea of moving the Typhoons under the edge of the ice pack, where they could be protected by their fleet , and drive MPA aircraft crazy trying to get at them through the ice!

After the fall of the Soveit union , three of the Kiev's were scrapped and Goshkov was used as a test ship, being fitted with a "phased Array" RADAR system , kind of a "poor man's SPY-1" (used with the USN Aegis system).

So why was the Goshkov fitted as a CV? Because that was all they had, having sold the unfinished Varayg (sister ship to the Tiblisi/Kuneskov), and you can only sell what you have. Obviously some arms dealer mad a hell of a commission , as she was sold twice to the same buyer. 1st to buy her, then full price again to FINISH her!

So while the Goshkov was "good enough" for Soviet work, how will she perform in her new role? I'm going out on a limb and say "probably not good enough". [:D]

Thanks Steve! [:)]

BTW, what do you think about rumored China's long range (almost ICMB) missile that in theory threaten CVs?


Leo "Apollo11"

[PeteG662]

Steve,
 
My recall of the boat length was likely incorrect but no biggie since you got the gist. Yes, there was a classified wargame of that scenario and the CVBG had its clock cleaned so badly that they halted the wargame and changed the parameters for a "blue" force win. There have been some recent media articles on this wargame with all the saber rattling going on over there.
 
Pete

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

Steve,

My recall of the boat length was likely incorrect but no biggie since you got the gist. Yes, there was a classified wargame of that scenario and the CVBG had its clock cleaned so badly that they halted the wargame and changed the parameters for a "blue" force win. There have been some recent media articles on this wargame with all the saber rattling going on over there.

Pete

Paul van Riper struck again? [:D]

[PeteG662]

The one and only!

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

In fairness , the Kiev's were never intended to go toe to toe with USN flat tops. They were designed for a different mission, with a very different doctrine in mind.

Please keep in Mind that these ships were the brainchild of Sergi Goshkov (who kept a sign of his desk that read "Perfection is the enemy of good enough") Kruschev's head of the Navy. Where as Stalin wanted a big,blue water balanced fleet with battleships and carriers, Kruschev wanted none of that. Nothing larger than a Cruiser , "Which was only good for carting admirals around". So Goshkov was limited both by resources , and by politics. It's hard to lobby in favor of carriers when the party has just decreed them useless and symbols of Imperialism!

Goshkov was forced to rely on submarines and small craft rather than BB's and CV's. Missiles instead of bombers. So that's what he did. Build a big coastal defense Navy to force the CV's well back, limiting their nuclear attack aircraft. (The Soviets saw ALL war as leading to a nuclear confrontation. The question was always WHEN, never IF). And this worked well as long as the Navy faced CV's. Their own subs would raid u-boat style (joined by a few CL's and DDG's) on western convoys.

The Polaris came out. Big problem. Now you need to force them back, with landbased ASW , lots of cheap frigates , destroyers and Anti-submarine cruisers (The Soviets NEVER called them that, but Large ASW Patrol ships). Then Moskva and Leningrad , what we would call CHV's , (They would call them "Tactical aircraft carrying ASW Cruisers"--quite a mouthful, but still thinking ASW , not strike).

Eventually the Soviets would build SSBN's of their own (1st Yankee's which operated off Bermuda, then the Delta series , operating further and farther back from the USA) and gave their Navy a new job, protecting those SSBN's. ASW ships were good against western SSN's and SS's, and the surface ships with their long range missiles could threaten ASW CV's (Like the ASW Essex's and latter the British Invincibles) , but could do nothing against flocks of P-3's,Nimrods and Atlantic's.

So enter the Kiev class. Their main battery was not the Yak-36 (or sometimes called YAK 38) Forger VTOL planes they carried, but those same "crappy" missiles that Terminus refers to. They were quite a threat to USN CV's. And these ships carried what was considered a massive battery of AAA and AS missile in their day. And along with the usual Hormone and Helix ASW and early warning aircraft , we had the YAK's. No threat to F-14's,F-4's, or even Harriers and Sea Harriers. But to P-3's, Nimrods and other Maritime patrol aircraft and Helicopters? A huge bloody threat! (I speak from 1st hand experince!).

With the later Delta's and eventual the Typhoon class, the Soviets were able to retreat into "Bastions" just outside their harbors where ASW aircraft couldn't go , and SSN's did so at their extreme peril. Later , the Soviets got the bright idea of moving the Typhoons under the edge of the ice pack, where they could be protected by their fleet , and drive MPA aircraft crazy trying to get at them through the ice!

After the fall of the Soveit union , three of the Kiev's were scrapped and Goshkov was used as a test ship, being fitted with a "phased Array" RADAR system , kind of a "poor man's SPY-1" (used with the USN Aegis system).

So why was the Goshkov fitted as a CV? Because that was all they had, having sold the unfinished Varayg (sister ship to the Tiblisi/Kuneskov), and you can only sell what you have. Obviously some arms dealer mad a hell of a commission , as she was sold twice to the same buyer. 1st to buy her, then full price again to FINISH her!

So while the Goshkov was "good enough" for Soviet work, how will she perform in her new role? I'm going out on a limb and say "probably not good enough". [:D]

Thanks Steve! [:)]

BTW, what do you think about rumored China's long range (almost ICMB) missile that in theory threaten CVs?


Leo "Apollo11"

I'm not sure how effective it would be. 1st you need real time, precise data on where the carrier is. Then you need to drop in on the carrier precisely , after getting by any THADs equipped Aeigis DDG's and CG's that can intercept it. And even if you do hit it (and presumably sink it ) ok , now what? You've escallated to full scale nuclear war. Yes, China takes out a CV , and the US takes out China's 100 biggest cities. Do you call that a win?

Frankly , even if it worked , China would not use it. For the same reason that the USA won't employ a convetionally equipped ICBM as a anti-terroist weapon (Global strike). Because you can not distinguish it from a strategic nuclear strike.

But it is an excellent propaganda weapon. Almost as dangerous as Iran's mastery of Photoshop and their use of Paper Maiche weapons in parades![:D]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

Steve,

My recall of the boat length was likely incorrect but no biggie since you got the gist. Yes, there was a classified wargame of that scenario and the CVBG had its clock cleaned so badly that they halted the wargame and changed the parameters for a "blue" force win. There have been some recent media articles on this wargame with all the saber rattling going on over there.

Pete

Paul van Riper struck again? [:D]

Kind of an ironic name , considering Sterling Haden's role name in Dr. Strangelove.[:D]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Almost as dangerous as Iran's mastery of Photoshop and their use of Paper Maiche weapons in parades![:D]

Are you suggesting that A-mad-in-de-head's missiles aren't firing? [:D]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Almost as dangerous as Iran's mastery of Photoshop and their use of Paper Maiche weapons in parades![:D]

Are you suggesting that A-mad-in-de-head's missiles aren't firing? [:D]

Last year , Mr. Ahm-a-dinner-jacket's forces claimed a mass launch of 14 missiles at once. They launched 3, but the photo showed 14 ( some of them without contrails , some with miss-matched). It confirmed an ugly and feared truth. The Iranians have Photoshop and are not afraid to use it! [:D]

[pharmy]

Ah, but that was their anti-Israel capability they were showing off. The US is much more worried about those missiles that launch horizontally stationed at the straights of Hormuz, the one Nato calls Sunburn, nasty little 3 mach bugger. That means it flies at a km a second - 30 km wide straight, nightmare for a bushwacked transiting force.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... moskit.htm

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Almost as dangerous as Iran's mastery of Photoshop and their use of Paper Maiche weapons in parades![:D]

Are you suggesting that A-mad-in-de-head's missiles aren't firing? [:D]

Last year , Mr. Ahm-a-dinner-jacket's forces claimed a mass launch of 14 missiles at once. They launched 3, but the photo showed 14 ( some of them without contrails , some with miss-matched). It confirmed an ugly and feared truth. The Iranians have Photoshop and are not afraid to use it! [:D]

[bigred]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I am beginning to suspect that almost any carrier is just too vulnerable these days to be worth it. The only thing that makes our American carriers useful is that at this time there is really no world power with the capability to take them. But I bet if they were in the hands of another nation that we would have no trouble taking them out....Which means that sooner or later somebody else will have that capability.

I have heard the subs in operation today have the ability to sneak undetected w/in torp range of any CVBG and place torps into the screws of any capitol ship. So I figure the CV will go the path of the BB. I expect this to happen w/ in the next 3/4 years.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Almost as dangerous as Iran's mastery of Photoshop and their use of Paper Maiche weapons in parades![:D]

Are you suggesting that A-mad-in-de-head's missiles aren't firing? [:D]

Last year , Mr. Ahm-a-dinner-jacket's forces claimed a mass launch of 14 missiles at once. They launched 3, but the photo showed 14 ( some of them without contrails , some with miss-matched). It confirmed an ugly and feared truth. The Iranians have Photoshop and are not afraid to use it! [:D]

Hmmm...they're working on a fearsome antimissile system as well...

[Chickenboy]

Here's the real missile transporter, erector and launcher.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

There is another tactic which I am sure 5th Fleet is concerned about which the Iranians are geared towards using. Understanding that a CV would not normally operate in restricted waters such as the Persian Gulf, since the Fleet HQ and home port is within those restricted waters it creates a little dilemma for a carrier going through the Strait of Hormuz and the Iranians go with an asymmetric attack with swarm tactics by small boats. Don't know how many 25 footers with high speed torpedoes you need to take down a CVBG transiting the Strait but it could be interesting!

BTW....Hey Steve, we haven't had any more meet ups in DC!

Pete 

They need to add to each carrier groups escort a helicopter carrier and give the USN some Apaches or Longbows to put on them. That might solve the problem

[gradenko2k]

ORIGINAL: bigred

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I am beginning to suspect that almost any carrier is just too vulnerable these days to be worth it. The only thing that makes our American carriers useful is that at this time there is really no world power with the capability to take them. But I bet if they were in the hands of another nation that we would have no trouble taking them out....Which means that sooner or later somebody else will have that capability.

I have heard the subs in operation today have the ability to sneak undetected w/in torp range of any CVBG and place torps into the screws of any capitol ship. So I figure the CV will go the path of the BB. I expect this to happen w/ in the next 3/4 years.

This already happened before. A German Type 206-class diesel-electric sub managed to penetrate the USS Enterprise's battle-group while it was on maneuvers in the Caribbean and got close enough to photograph it through its periscope, which is as good as saying it got close enough to fire a likely fatal spread of torpedoes if this was not an exercise.

You may be right that carriers are too large targets to be effectively protected against swarms of cruise missiles and/or subs, but at least on the sub front, the only ones quiet enough to do this are the diesel-electrics, who have their own obvious limitations, as well as practically being a one-shot weapon. That is, you might be able to get it to sink a carrier, but you'll pretty much have to write-off the sub completely after that single attack from all the ASW attention it's going to attract. It's definitely a trade-off that would be massively in the sub's favor, though.

[Alfred]

Also achieved by the Australian Collins class of submarines. Not so certain that a sub would definitely be sunk in return as the Australian sub was able to penetrate the CV ASW screen which was actively looking for the sub.

Alfred

[Dili]

Water is not homogeneous, that is why submarines sometimes can invade screening forces.

[sandman455]

US carriers no longer dabble much in ASW. Neither do their escorts, although they do keep some up the illusion of being at least a little bit concerned with ASW.

Twenty years ago the best ASW asset on board a carrier or her battlegroup was either made by Westinghouse or Babcock & Wilcox. This hasn't changed. Especially when you consider the limited pool of potentially hostile SSN boats today.

The 2nd best ASW asset on the planet isn't talked about much but there are 50+ of them in the USN. There are only 11 active carriers. Do the math to figure out how many might be attached to the CVBG for the express purpose of defending mother from what lurks beneath the water.

I will say diesel boats are scary when they go still. That is their specialty - sit and wait. If they shut down the pumps, they get like flashlight quiet, but they can't do it for long. Eventually they have to run pumps or keep the screw turning for depth maintenance. You stumble onto one and you will have your hands full even after you sealed it's fate with your first response. It's hard but with some speed and counter measures you might out last a couple torps. The diesel has no hope of out maneuvering anything fired at it or on it.

Sounds ominous for the CVBG. Alas this is what a Collins class or any SS boat looks like when she's not running on the surface which is what they do most of the night.



They don't get far out of port before there's a satellite constantly sniffing. They will always get an IR signature even if the visual isn't available. That's all the the CVBG needs - an updated datum each day and if you don't get one, then you know the boat isn't far from where you last fixed it.

They never gave me that star I wanted, but even I can call the plan for that - don't go there.

As for the Chinese carrier - I'd give dollars to donuts that the Russian old timers are laughing and reminiscing about the old days. Just wait, give the Chinese 20 years and they will have figured it out. Then maybe another 10 years and they'll have maybe the 3rd or 4th best submarine force in the world. Everything else is a waste of time against a CVBG - just ask those old timers.

[Xenocide]

I imagine the Chinese are building carriers for prestige and for the same reason the U.S. uses them. Mostly to intimidate U.S. enemies without countermeasures and a mobile airbase against those enemies. I am pretty sure the Chinese know that carriers would be useless in a shooting war with the U.S. That is not why they are being built. They're for saber-rattling and expanding their sphere of influence in the South Pacific.

[elcid]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Also achieved by the Australian Collins class of submarines. Not so certain that a sub would definitely be sunk in return as the Australian sub was able to penetrate the CV ASW screen which was actively looking for the sub.

Alfred

To which add it was also achieved once by a Chinese submarine - truly embarassing.

The idea of sending a helo carrier is interesting - and useful in some respects - but not necessary. Present day US CVNs do not carry full compliments of aircraft - and easily can add helos as required. In fact, in the Haiti rescue operation, an entire "Army helo air group" was embarked - carriers are very flexable.

It is quite true that carriers don't like restricted waters - mainly because of its impact on air operations - but also because it means there is more of a chance a small vessel can hide near some shoreline - or a submarine can be hard to spot at a distance (long range sonar requires deep water; subs also can get near the bottom in shallow water - but that isn't possible when it is deep). Even so - it might be a good idea. A carrier migth be more effective closer to the targets to be protected - particularly if it is between Iran and the targets. And it might tempt the Iranians to engage, which might be an easier way to reduce their forces than going after them inside their own air defense networks. It is not popular - but in simulated contests with China - putting a carrier in the Taiwan Strait really messes em up bad - they either scrap the entire amphib op or they lose; if they try to engage the carrier group - they tend to lose their offensive forces in hours instead of the ten days their planning anticipates. There is some risk a carrier might be hit - a lesser risk it might be rendered unfit for air ops - but not much chance of losing it - and the price tends to be so high that it decides the contest - de facto if not formally.