Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

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awaw
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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by awaw »

awaw, normally I'd agree with you, but in the case of the Helen, I really don't expect to get them any earlier. My goal is to have 60 repaired so when they do become operational, I'll start building 2 a day.

14(0) cannot influence Helen I for sure, but if you move them to IIb.......... imho minimum commitment of efforts to move an excellent plane forward
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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Mike Solli »

awaw, you're thinking way ahead of me. I agree, the IIb is an excellent plane. I need to think about this. I never really gave the R&R issue much thought. I always played with PDU off before this game. I pretty much needed everything then if I wanted to use the air unit. Something to think about today....
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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by obvert »

I plan to push both Helen 1 factories to research for Helen IIa once complete (which is only a few days away). The Sallys are doing fine and the Helen I is not much better than they are anyway.
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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Mike Solli »

Hmm, let me think about that today at work. Thanks.
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awaw
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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by awaw »

As far as ground bombing goes, Helen I, IIa and IIb all have the same bombing capacity (same number of bombs)

Helen I has the advantage of ASW device, but is the only model without armour. It also has the shortest range, but the lowest bomb rating (even though the bombload is the same). This gives it a niche use. The pilots are exposed due to lack of armour but the lowest bomb rating makes this the cheapest plane, supply wise, in this series to use. But in a "protected environment" such as Bataan supression after the airforce are removed, Helen I really shines, after all, Japan is perpetually short of supply. In the past, players used Helen I in an asw role, but given the PP costs (which is not really that significant imho) to convert squadrons, this may be toned down? Something remains to be seen.

Helen IIa has no advantage over IIb except it comes a year earlier, so imho, best to just research acelerate IIb (you cannot afford to invest too much research here anyway). Sometimes I wonder if I am the only crazy nutcase who intend to use only a few Helen IIa squadrons, with the majority in Ia/IIb.

The entire Helen branch comes with one big problem, that is their engines are largely unique in a PDU on environment. Few other useful planes use this engine. This means that it is costly to adjust production for Japan, as it likely involves adjustments to the engine as well. Hence normally once I decide on the Helen production, I stick to it for the entire war, and even if later models are available, such as the Peggy, I advocate keeping Helen in full production in favour of Peggy. I think HI is not a big issue for Japan in scen 1, it is more so of supplies than HI. Any supplies I can spare goes towards fighters........
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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by d0mbo »

In my games I use the Sally2a as an early war bomber, in the meantime I expand my Helen2a research (coming from the Helen1; when fully repaired*, switch to 2a). I expect to shave off one or maybe two months from the september 1942 arrival date of the Helen. The armor is a big advantage in my opinion. The earlier they ar eonline, the better.

I use the then obsolete Sally bombers for my ASW wings, which are training ASW/Low naval attack for the first part of 1942 anyway. Much of my training units in manchuria/HI use the older (single engine) stuff to keep those planes in pool for kamikazes.

Since I am using a single type for ALL my frontline IJA bomber forces (PDU: ON) it doesnt really matter that it's an pretty unique engine: you need a lot of planes to fill out those bomber wings! Since there isnt really a better alternative for much of the war period, this is actually pretty economical in my book :)


My $/€ 0.02

* keep researching the helen1c until just before it arrives in 4/1942, then switch over your R&D factories to helen2a. They really repair fast this way AND you wont suffer 'damage'because of the switchover. Since i am not pl;anning on building helen1c's, i can switch over ALL my R&D factories, in the meanwhile relying on the Sally to carry to fight!
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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by PaxMondo »

Mike,

I'm with d0mbo on this.

The Helen 1a isn't as good as the Sally (shorter range) and you're already up and running with it. I go for the Helen 11a and then switch over. The IIb upgrades the defensive mg's ...

As for the ASW with the Helen 1a, you don't get the MAD device until '45 and it only adds 5% ASW. I've never seen that much impact, so I no longer build them.

I forget if you are Scen 1 or 2, but in Scen 1 the Tojo correctly uses the same engine as the Helen. Scen 2 they never made the change.

EDIT: just read that you are Scen 1, so you will need beaucoup Ha-34's for you Helen and Tojo builds. Start working on an engine pool early.

PS: since this is your first PDU On game, I strongly suggest that you take a break (really, ask Ted for a 7 day hiatus) and sit down and work out your R&D carefully. Since the allies can now shift around their a/c without limitation, you will see hordes more 4E's with MUCH better escorts earlierthan you are used to. To counter that, you need to have your fighter builds spun up a lot earlier.

Models to look at carefully and how they upgrade (or don't) are the: Tojo, Frank, Ki-94, and George. Once you figure out your fighter strategy, then go do the same for all the other planes types (FP, LB, etc.). Remember, you do NOT need to build any model to have a group arrive. Focus is crucial. If you choose Tojo, then you do NOT build Tony (and vice versa). Oh, and you really need to have this plan down all they way to '46.

Couple of estimators for you to work out your plan.

1. If the model is more than 24 months out (beyond 12/43), it will take about 12 months to repair a size 30 R&D factory. I've hear reports of this happening as soon as 8 months, but I've never seen it. Still, I find that 12 months for planning is pretty good.
2. It takes 100 R&D pts to advance a model 1 month, so 3x30 R&D on the Paul will likely advance it from 4/44 to about 8/43. There is some randomness built in of course. This is Gary. [;)]
3. Many times you will want your R&D factories to continue to R&D to the next model (like for the Tojo). So you might want to start 6x30 R&D and allow 3x30 to continue to research while allowing 3x30 to start production of this excellent fighter.

Ergo, you are talking about potentially MILLIONS of supply here. Need to carefully determine what you want to chase after and when. Just remember, you really do have to do this. Ted is going to have a lot more 4E's with P-38's coming at you in '42 than you have ever seen, not to mention Hurri's and Spits. Oscars will not work in this environment.

Looking forward to your solutions for this. I've plowed through it many times and really want to see how your solution compares to mine. GOOD HUNTING!!!

PS: I prefer the Tojo over the Tony and the George over the Rex.
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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by SqzMyLemon »

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

PS: since this is your first PDU On game, I strongly suggest that you take a break (really, ask Ted for a 7 day hiatus) and sit down and work out your R&D carefully. Since the allies can now shift around their a/c without limitation, you will see hordes more 4E's with MUCH better escorts earlierthan you are used to. To counter that, you need to have your fighter builds spun up a lot earlier.

I can vouch for Pax's suggestion. I've been burnt a few times from not doing my homework and understanding plane upgrade paths. Save yourself the supply and time lost later with planning now.

If not, do what I do and go with the planes that look the coolest! What could go wrong? [:D]
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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Grfin Zeppelin »

Better build planes in your favourite colour.

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Mike Solli
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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Mike Solli »

You guys crack me up. [:D] You're definitely the best part of this AAR. You have me convinced on the importance of R&D. Does anyone have the plane stats in a spreadsheet? I'll bet you do, Sulu. If anyone can send them to me at michael.solli at us.army.mil, I'd appreciate it. I have the R&D factories and the info on when the planes come online, just no stats handy. (Something to do at lunch.)

I'm going to set up 3x30 Helen I factories and upgrade to the Helen II before they become operational as all of you suggested.

Thanks guys.
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Mike Solli
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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Mike Solli »

Oh yeah, that's a good way to communicate with me during the day when I can't come here.
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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Zorch »

While we're on the subject, don't forget to research cloaking technology.
There's nothing like an invisible kamikaze.
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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by jrcar »

Mike I echo the other comments on planes. The Helen IIa has been an excellent bomber, we are still making some Helen 1 for ASW. Gave up Sally a long time ago (still in use in China though).

Suggest you aim for at least 200 research factories per key model, this brings them forward 2 months every month. I've recently posted in our AAR a screen shot of our production. Yes it hurts supply wise, but less than loosing the war in 1943!

IMHO the Japanese player needs to plan for 1943. 1942 is largely a "gimmie" as the Japanese player has all the cards. 43 though gets real interesting and to be competitive you need to be in a good position.

Cheers

Rob
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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by SqzMyLemon »

ORIGINAL: jrcar

IMHO the Japanese player needs to plan for 1943. 1942 is largely a "gimmie" as the Japanese player has all the cards. 43 though gets real interesting and to be competitive you need to be in a good position.

Cheers

Rob

Just like to say I'm learning much from following your AAR and your analysis. I'm glad you and Tony are posting.
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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by SuluSea »

Hi Mike I don't have stats I usually note what tracker says and go from there . Here's a CSV from tracker which will give you some info on the run but not as detailed as plane comparisons in tracker of course. Whoops I'll have to email it I think.



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Mike Solli
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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Mike Solli »

I did this at lunch yesterday. The R&D is definitely a work in progress. I haven't had any time to think about it since then......


14 Jan 42

Sub War

The I-156 saw and missed an AVD off Cold Bay in the Aleutians. Looks like Ted wants some recon up there to keep tabs on me. I need some Glen subs up there. I have 6 fleet subs allocated to that area but usually only 2 are patrolling at any one time. The others are in port or in between the two areas. This area will be the first to get Glen reinforcements.

5 Fleet

Working on airfield level 2.

4 Fleet

Nothing new to report.

SE Fleet

I had set up an ambush of sorts. I am aware that Ted has some A-24s at Pt. Moresby. They carry 1000 lbers so I want to get rid of them. I figure there were about 16 and had destroyed 3 yesterday leaving 13. I sent a small invasion TF to Buna composed of 2 xAKLs and 1 PB hauling a NG company. I will take Buna eventually, so I figured I’d send this TF in to draw out the A-24s. I know Ted has no fighters at PM so I figure I could slaughter them with Zeros on LRCAP over the TF. It didn’t quite work that way. The A-24s went for Lae, 7 of them. My CAP there shot down 6 so I figure there are about half a dozen left. The LRCAP was at 15k feet over the TF and in came 3x Do-24s, I think rather low. They blew one of the xAKLs to smithereens. The other one landed the remains of the company (about 60%) and they will take Buna tomorrow. So, it worked out, but not the way I had planned. I got a bunch of them at the cost of an xAKL and about half a dozen squads. No big deal really.

This morning Ted told me that the invasion TF sailed through about twice as many subs as the Hiryu incident. Never saw one. Go figure.

There was one other incident in this area. Two more Do-24s flew into Rabaul looking for shipping and found the TF unloading the 144 Regiment (back from taking Lae) and sank an xAKL. Again, my CAP (at 15k feet) just watched. I reset my CAP for tomorrow at 15k, 10k and 6k feet to see if that will make a difference.

Philippines

Nothing new to report.

China

Nothing new to report.

Java

The Yamada Det caught 3x B-339Ds over Kalidjati and shot two of them down. Another pilot achieved elite status and went off to TRACOM. He was replaced by another 80 experience pilot. Keeping the 18 plane daitai at 60% LRCAP and 40% rest with 24 pilots in the unit is working well keeping the fatigue down around ten or so. Eleven planes typically fly each day. Note that I keep the plane reserve full as well. IJN TRACOM is currently at 7 or 8 (don’t remember if I wrote that down before or after I put the new pilot into TRACOM).

Malaya

The 3 assault divisions are down to about 30 disruption and fatigue. All is good waiting for the last third of the IG division to arrive at Johore Bharu so the division can recombine and the rest of the assault force can begin movement.

Burma

Pt. Blair’s airfield will reach level 2 in a day or two. Then I can put some Nells and recon there to start having fun.

Other Stuff

I did my first cull of pilots. There wasn’t a lot. I pull them out of training when they reach 50+ experience and 70+ stat and check twice a month. It’s been basically a month and I figure it’ll take 2-3 months to get them to that level. I got a total of 2 IJN TB pilots (trained in NavT and NavB), 4 IJA bomber pilots and 1 IJA fighter pilot. A lot are close and should be available by the end of the month though.

Reinforcements: 2 Raiding Sentai (27x Ki-57-I) – These pilots are not trained transport pilots (or anything else for that matter). I’m going to pull the best transport pilots from the 4 chutai training transport pilots and put these clowns in training. They won’t be up to the 70 stat requirement, but that’s ok for transport pilots.

I also got an xAK, xAKL and the CHa-26.

If you’ve gotten this far, you know I’ve been wrestling with R&D, something new for me. Here are some brief comments on what I plan on doing. Note that this is not even close to being complete.

Helen Ia (Apr 42) – I have 2x 30 factories and will add a third. I will keep it on this plane until each factory is fully repaired then change to the Helen IIa (Sep 42) hoping to get this model a month early. This will become my primary IJA frontline bomber. The Sally will be relegated to ASW duties at that time.

Tojo IIa (Sep 42) – I have 1x 30 factory and will add a second. Once they become operational, I will convert an Oscar factory to this bringing them up to 90. The Oscar will then be at 96. If needed, I’ll convert an additional Oscar factory to the Tojo bringing the Tojo to 120 operational and the Oscar to 64 operational.

Tony – I’m probably not going to build any.

Nick FB – I don’t know what to do here but I need to decide real soon. Maybe 1x 30 of the KAIb (Dec 42)? The KAIa arrives in May 42.

A6M3 (Jun 42) – 1x 60 factory which will become operational. Yeah, I know I should have done 2x 30 but did this early on before I knew the ramifications. In addition, I will convert 3 factories to this and when they are repaired to 30 will change to the A6M3a (Dec 42). I want the A6M3a as soon as possible because it is carrier capable. These 3 will become operational.

A6M5 (Aug 43) – I’ll use 3x 30 to work on getting this model early if possible. I’ll convert these factories to either the A6M5c or the A6M8. Gotta check the stats on these models to see what would be more beneficial.

Lily – This model is history…..eventually. I’ll keep it around until the Helen comes on board. Then I’ll phase it out and replace it with Sallys. The Lily will be a training plane in Manchuoko. The factory is off right now and will remain so until I run out of planes in the pool (currently at ~48). That will ease the need for Ha-35 engines for a little bit. Also, with the focus on Tojos vs. the Oscar, the extra engines will be available for the Zero series.

Night Fighters – I’m not sure if they are worth building. I’ll probably build some J1N1-S Irving, mainly because they are the first to become operational. At any rate, I’ll decide later and make sure not to convert this factory to something else for the time being.

IJN TB – Right now I have a size 16 factory each for the B5N1 and B5N2. The N1 will build until the engines for it are gone. The N2 will build until there are ~50 in the pool and then stop. Not sure I’ll try to accelerate the Jill much. I’ll probably increase the Jill B6N1 and B6N2 factories to 30 and convert them to the Grace before they become operational. The operational Kate factories do not upgrade to anything so one or both will upgrade to the Jill eventually. My goal is to work on the Grace. The Grace factory will increase to 30 and will get the additional benefit of the two Jill factories. I’d love to get the Grace in early 44. The Grace factories will then become operational.

IJN DB – I’m skipping the D3A2 and will wait for the Judy. No acceleration here. I’ll probably upgrade the Val factory and convert the Judy R&D factories to something else.

IJN 2E Bombers – I’ll keep both the Nell and Betty and let them upgrade as they become available. No acceleration here.

I did a little calculating. Without the SRA, the Japanese Empire produces ~25k supply a day, or 9 million a year. About 7.6 million is produced in the Home Islands. Now that will decrease once the oil glut is burned through. With the SRA intact, you get almost 30k a day, or 11 million supply a year. If one were to increase all R&D factories to 30, the cost would be about 1.7 million supply. Has anyone considered doing that with the R&D factories? Then you could focus on the airframes you want to accelerate and keep converting them to the next ones you want. Crazy thought but I wonder if it is plausible.

More on this later….

Ted thinks I’m marching across the Owen-Stanley mountains toward Pt. Moresby. Let him focus on that. I’m not. I plan on sending a couple of divisions from the SRA to Pt. Moresby in a month or so. That’s the plan anyway.
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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by ny59giants »

There was one other incident in this area. Two more Do-24s flew into Rabaul looking for shipping and found the TF unloading the 144 Regiment (back from taking Lae) and sank an xAKL. Again, my CAP (at 15k feet) just watched. I reset my CAP for tomorrow at 15k, 10k and 6k feet to see if that will make a difference.

Your large Army BFs and large AA units get radar and will upgrade steadily in the months ahead. Right now, your have just the "Mark 1 eye ball" to give you warning. With little warning, they can get in quickly before your CAP flying too high can dive on them.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by zuluhour »

very informative AAR Mike.
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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Cribtop »

Mike, do you cull pilots individually or wait for the whole "class" in a given unit to train up? If the former, do you immediately replace with a new recruit? I had a vague sense that I once read sticking to the class approach was better overall, but I'm not sure whether this was superseded by a later patch (or whether it was accurate to begin with).
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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by SqzMyLemon »

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Mike, do you cull pilots individually or wait for the whole "class" in a given unit to train up? If the former, do you immediately replace with a new recruit? I had a vague sense that I once read sticking to the class approach was better overall, but I'm not sure whether this was superseded by a later patch (or whether it was accurate to begin with).

I do both, depends on how much I've meddled with the unit's pilots. I manually pick all pilots to replace losses in front line units from the general reserve though.

I'm also trying something new. I've taken a Betty unit and divided it into 1/3's. I assign one to naval search, one to naval attack/bombing and the last to naval/attack torpedo. I'm looking to see if the breakdown speeds up the training process overall and how the mix will perform in combat when recombined. Just something I'm trying out, no idea if it is worth it or not at this stage.
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