Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are....

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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Apollo11
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RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are....

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: cohimbra

it is customary for the cruise ships pass close to shore to greet visitors to the inhabitants of the island
(the tourists love it, it's very old Italian style);everyone knows it, normal people, the authorities, the
owner of the company ...no one has ever said or done something, even this in perfect Italian style
(I can tell, I'm Italian). The captain was arrested and suggest three crimes: manslaughter, negligent sinking,
abandon ship.
He was drunk or not nobody knows (at least not us), and may take years to come without anything (it has
happened many times, unfortunately).
The only certainty is that there aren't rocks like this on the high seas:
http://m.sky.it/tg24/cronaca/photogalle ... agio_morti

Thanks for info and link!


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
I posted some pictures regarding this from UK Daily Mail yesterday at "THE THREAD!!!"...
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crsutton
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RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are....

Post by crsutton »

The captain is going to get nailed to the wall but there are others that will come under close scrutiny as well. The officers, on the bridge at the time, the helmsman, the lookouts as well as many questions to be answered as to equipment and procedures. Not to mention company policies, orders to the captain, maintenance, crew training. Not sure if modern ships have black boxes these days but I imagine a lot of the electronic information from radar and GPS is now recorded. As with the Exxon Valdes it might take years to fully assign responsibility. Well...that is except for the captain who will need to start working on his resume right away.

As hinted by others it is unfortunate but there are a lot of external pressures on the captain of a ship to deviate for good common sense nautical procedures to maximize the profit potential. The biggest factor being to trade off safety in exchange for time. As it is extremely expensive to run a large ship and 30 minutes shaved off a schedule represents a large savings to the company. For this reason, or in the case of a cruise ship where pleasing the customers takes priority, there are unwritten outside pressures on the captain to fudge on safe practices. This is one of the main reasons why there are accidents and will always be accidents. The captain of a ship is the authority but he is not always in full control as he must answer to higher authorities.
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veji1
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RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are....

Post by veji1 »

this kind of accident also leads to questionning the rationality of having bigger and bigger boats with 5000 guys on board... One day something will happen and Titanic will look like a picnic... Scary.
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HansBolter
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RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are....

Post by HansBolter »

On May 9, 1980 I narrowly missed losing my life in a maritime disaster.

I and a coworker were carpooling from St. Petersburg to work in Bradenton, south of Tampa Bay. As we approached the Sunshine Skyway Bridge a summer squall blew in off the Gulf of Mexico. The sheet of solid grey rain reduced visibility to about 30 feet. Traffic slowed to 25 mph and we were navigating by the taillights of the vehicle in front of us. The winds were buffetting the car back and forth sideways across the lane. We looked at each other and jointly decided to pull off into the scenic overlook at the foot of the bridge and "wait it out".

The official story of what transpired next can be found by scrolling down the linked wikapedia page to the portion on the Summitt Venture disaster:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunshine_Skyway_Bridge

We watched the Greyhound bus go by as we pulled off into the scenic overlook. We had been ahead of the bus. The bus was not on the portion of the roadway that dropped out from under the other vehicles. It is believed that the bus drove off the edge after the roadway dropped. We have no way of knowing if we were far enough ahead of the bus to have made it across before the bridge fell or if we would have been on the portion that fell. Both of us firmly believe that the decision to pull over that day saved our lives.

My deepest sympathies go out to the families and loved ones of those lost in this disaster.
Hans

US87891
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RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are....

Post by US87891 »

ORIGINAL: crsutton
The captain is going to get nailed to the wall but there are others that will come under close scrutiny as well. The officers, on the bridge at the time, the helmsman, the lookouts as well as many questions to be answered as to equipment and procedures. Not to mention company policies, orders to the captain, maintenance, crew training. Not sure if modern ships have black boxes these days but I imagine a lot of the electronic information from radar and GPS is now recorded. As with the Exxon Valdes it might take years to fully assign responsibility. Well...that is except for the captain who will need to start working on his resume right away.

As hinted by others it is unfortunate but there are a lot of external pressures on the captain of a ship to deviate for good common sense nautical procedures to maximize the profit potential. The biggest factor being to trade off safety in exchange for time. As it is extremely expensive to run a large ship and 30 minutes shaved off a schedule represents a large savings to the company. For this reason, or in the case of a cruise ship where pleasing the customers takes priority, there are unwritten outside pressures on the captain to fudge on safe practices. This is one of the main reasons why there are accidents and will always be accidents. The captain of a ship is the authority but he is not always in full control as he must answer to higher authorities.
Yes, the captain will be nailed to the wall. But not for the reasons you think. The post by cohimbra should be read very carefully. Because what Schettino did was what any cruise ship Captain would do (deviate from nominal course). Talked about this with JWE and he has no issues with Schettino's decision. Big issue with Schettino not marking the Nav warnings on the new course. Modern auto helm programs have all these things in the database. Probably didn't do it because it would show up in the ship's log, and one wants the log to show exactly the preprogrammed course (a Euro law).

So no matter your thoughts on Euro law, Schettino screwed up by deviating from nominal but not putting the new Nav markers into the new course. Many, many Captains deviate. It's hard to scar Schettino for doing what everybody does. It's not hard to scar Schettino for negligence. If you want to be a cowboy, then read the goddam charts.

Place where JWE thinks he ought to be hung is he shined his duty as Captain. Captain has a responsibility to everybody on board. Responsibility doesn't end till everybody is safely off or accounted for. If that means the Captain goes down, then the Captain goes down. Being Captain implies a duty. In this day and age, duty just means being able to zip up your pants. But to JWE, and me, and many others, duty is a moral obligation. Schettino didn't have it.

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RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are....

Post by bradfordkay »

What is crazy is that he wouldn't have gone down if he had stayed aboard. The photos clearly show that the majority of the bridge remained above water. Thus he not only proved himself an idiot but a coward as well. His post-incident remarks have only gone on to prove the first impression...
fair winds,
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21pzr
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RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are....

Post by 21pzr »

We are all agreed that the Captain will be prosecuted and punished, as he should. Ultimate responsibility always rests with him.

CRSutton: All merchant ships are equipped with VDR (voyage data recorders), which record vessel course, speed, GPS position, helm position, telegraph position, fathometer, etc. Cruise ships (and soon all merchant ships) have bridge voice recorders, so any conversation on the bridge, at any time will be recorded. The Engine Control Room on cruise ships also have voice recorders. Surveillance cameras are also mounted in the bridge and ECR, recorded on DVD's. One thing that took some getting used to when I started on cruise ships, after 20+ years on various types of merchantmen was the size of the maneuvering watches (required when in restricted waters, entering port, etc). Typical cargo ship: Bridge (Master, mate on watch, helmsman), ECR (Chief Engineer, duty engineer). Cruise ship: Bridge (Captain, Staff Captain, senior deck officer of watch, junior deck officer of watch, helmsman, lookout), ECR (Chief Engineer, Staff Chief Engineer, Chief Electrical Engineer, duty engineer).

US87891: While the Captain may not have amended the "passage plan" to reflect the course deviation, that would be a relatively minor offense, but one which will be used to prove negligence in the homicide or manslaughter proceedings. He had to know that the VDR would record the ships course and position. His main failure was abandoning the vessel before the passengers. Usually, there are only 3 crew members assigned to each lifeboat, each boat capable of carrying 150+ passengers. 90% of the crew are assigned to liferafts. The raft stations are usually interspersed with the boat stations, so the boats would normally be launched first, with the guests, and then the crew assembles and evacuates by raft. The Captain would be assigned to one of these rafts. As the surviving 2nd Officer of the Titanic testified when asked why he left his station, " I didn't leave the ship, it left me". Ships officers duty requires that they see that all passengers and crew are evacuated before leaving the ship. While no one can tell how he/she will react in a life threatening situation until it happens, you would hope that all the hours of training and a sense of professionalism would kick in, and actions would be automatic.

It is truly sad that in this age of immense regulation of the maritime industry, with all the required training, with all the "big brother" recorders, that really nothing has changed from the Titanic or the Morro Castle. The quantity and scope of the "International Safety Management" system that shipping companies are required to follow have effectively removed common sense from seafaring. Everyone is so concerned with covering their butts with paperwork that the actual process of sailing and maintaining a ship becomes secondary to the paperwork. And yet, does it provide a better, safer, environment to operate a ship in? This case shows that it doesn't. All it will do is be used by Costa Cruises to deny responsibility and throw the Captain and the officers under the bus: "We have written policies about this, obviously the Captain did not follow them, so how could we know and be responsible for this awful tragedy". Just watch and see.

Bill
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sandman455
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RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are....

Post by sandman455 »

ORIGINAL: 21pzr

. . . His main failure was abandoning the vessel before the passengers. . .

Here is a different perspective.

As a former officer in a navy and as a company owner I see the captain's main failure is that he totally disregarded his mission. Getting off the dying vessel too early isn't even on the radar. He totals a $500 million asset, kills some of his passengers and wrecks an entire industry. You realize he has left thousands unemployed and thousands more will follow. Everyone one with that company, cruise ship industry and the industries that support them will feel the pain. Ships sink and people die but not for getting closer to the shore so better pictures can be taken or so folks can actually see who they are waving at. This is an obscenity to all who have ever been entrusted with such responsibility.

It would have been 10x better if he was drunk and passed out on the Lido deck. At least then his employer and all who are following the story could relate to something classified as an illness. Something that could have been hidden. Instead all he had was bad judgment and that is exactly the stuff everyone tries so hard to weed out before they delegate so much responsibility to the individual. It is a nightare the few could understand unless you actually entrusted someone with so much.

A person in command of a vessel whether in a military or a civilian has responsibilities. They do not include making folks happy - ever. To think otherwise is to clearly not see it from the perspective of those who own that ship and fund his paycheck. They care about the passengers being happy, but they don't pay this man to worry about it. He's there to protect their investment and to carry out a mission that is as simple and as complex as getting them from point A to point B safe and sound. That is it.

When you completely disregard this all encompassing mission, it doesn't really matter if you push passengers out of the way to jump off first. It's inconsequential.
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21pzr
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RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are....

Post by 21pzr »

Sandman: While I agree with most of what you are saying, but must disagree with some of it. Having seen the cruise industry from the inside, I know that the "mission" of the Captain, as defined by the company, is to manage the vessel to maximize revenue, not to act as a traditional vessel Master. For the four years I was with NCL, trying to make the US flag operation a success (which unfortunately didn't happen, 3 ships downgrading to 1 and losing hundreds of millions of dollars each year), the senior officers aboard the 3 vessels tried to change the cruise industry to the way the US merchant marine works, without success. While ultimate responsibility resides with the Captain, the Staff Captain performs the shipboard duties more common to a merchant vessel's Master. The companies actually do pay the Captain to worry about the guest's happiness. From what I've seen of the cruise industry, from personal experience and talking to others in the industry at different companies, the professional mariners in the Deck and Engine departments are considered to be second-class citizens to the Hotel department, and the vessel is really only considered to be a moving hotel, not a vessel. Is this right? Of course not. However, until the number of disasters like this one reach a level where the public will no longer pay to risk their lives on these ships, that is the mentality of the industry. Do the Coast Guards of various nations consider cruise ships to be ships or hotels? Ships, of course, and require the officers and crew to act accordingly, but they are only there once a year or so (unless the worst happens), while the company is at the end of the internet 24/7.

Having worked aboard nearly every type of merchant ship out there (break bulk, container, RO/RO, tanker, bulker, cruise, and offshore installations), I can say that the cruise industry is unique in its adherence to the "guest experience" over operation of a vessel. This is one reason I left the cruise industry.

An example of the way that safety regulations have lagged behind technology are the ship's lifeboats. The Oasis of the Seas, the largest cruise ship out there, carries 6000+ passengers, yet only has the industry standard 18 lifeboats, so each lifeboat is rated for 370 persons. The "captain" of this lifeboat, if ever needed, will be at best a 3rd Mate, or deck rating. In the US, you need a USCG license to operate a passenger vessel for more than 6 people. 370 people is not a boat, that is a small ship. Yet, the companies will not consider adding more, smaller, boats due to the increased capital cost, maintenance cost, and manning.

One aspect of the industry that I did find interesting, and I don't believe it was limited to NCL, was the "pysch screening" that all officers were required to take. This turned out to be concerned with each candidates capability to see the big picture while being bombarded with details, and not with any professional maritime knowledge. This ability to continue to see the big picture, or "mission", is what I think Sandman is referring to, and is what is required of all seagoing officers, but obviously is not wide-spread, as the companies feel they need to screen for something that should have been instilled in the officer at the Academies.

Bill
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RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are....

Post by bradfordkay »

The Italian Coast Guard is apparently after the Captain's head:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/b ... round.html

Schettino has insisted that he stayed aboard until the ship was evacuated. However, a recording of his conversation with Italian Coast Guard Capt. Gregorio De Falco that emerged Tuesday indicates he fled before all passengers were off - and then resisted De Falco's repeated orders to return.

"You go on board and then you will tell me how many people there are. Is that clear?" De Falco shouted in the audio tape.

Schettino resisted, saying the ship was tipping and it was dark. At the time, he and his second-in-command were in a lifeboat and the captain said he was coordinating the rescue from there. He also said he was not going back on board the ship "because the other lifeboat is stopped." Passengers have said many lifeboats on the exposed port side of the ship didn't winch down after the ship had capsized.

De Falco shouted back: "And so what? You want to go home, Schettino? It is dark and you want to go home? Get on that prow of the boat using the pilot ladder and tell me what can be done, how many people there are and what their needs are. Now!"

"You go aboard. It is an order. Don't make any more excuses. You have declared 'Abandon ship,' now I am in charge," De Falco shouted.

At one point, De Falco vowed "I'm going to make sure you get in trouble. ...I am going to make you pay for this. Go on board, (expletive)!"

Schettino was finally heard agreeing to reboard on the tape. But the coast guard has said he never went back, and had police arrest him on land.

fair winds,
Brad
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RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are....

Post by GreyJoy »

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

The Italian Coast Guard is apparently after the Captain's head:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/b ... round.html

Schettino has insisted that he stayed aboard until the ship was evacuated. However, a recording of his conversation with Italian Coast Guard Capt. Gregorio De Falco that emerged Tuesday indicates he fled before all passengers were off - and then resisted De Falco's repeated orders to return.

"You go on board and then you will tell me how many people there are. Is that clear?" De Falco shouted in the audio tape.

Schettino resisted, saying the ship was tipping and it was dark. At the time, he and his second-in-command were in a lifeboat and the captain said he was coordinating the rescue from there. He also said he was not going back on board the ship "because the other lifeboat is stopped." Passengers have said many lifeboats on the exposed port side of the ship didn't winch down after the ship had capsized.

De Falco shouted back: "And so what? You want to go home, Schettino? It is dark and you want to go home? Get on that prow of the boat using the pilot ladder and tell me what can be done, how many people there are and what their needs are. Now!"

"You go aboard. It is an order. Don't make any more excuses. You have declared 'Abandon ship,' now I am in charge," De Falco shouted.

At one point, De Falco vowed "I'm going to make sure you get in trouble. ...I am going to make you pay for this. Go on board, (expletive)!"

Schettino was finally heard agreeing to reboard on the tape. But the coast guard has said he never went back, and had police arrest him on land.


If you only could listen to his voice...his tone...damned coward...11 deaths confirmed by now and 20 more people still missing...
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RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are....

Post by chesmart »

Agreed Greyjoy heard the recording on the coriere site, Schettino should be imprisoned for a long time. He and his officers lied repeatedly to the Italian coastguard by refusing to declare an emergency when they hit the rocks and then by abandoning ship and leaving the coast guard S&R officer who landed by helicopter by himself to finish the rescue. The Coastguard captain is the real hero of the story. He started S&R before the captain declared an emergency and had his assets in place before an emergency was declared and they where ready to take over from the ships officers who panicked and left the crew and passengers aboard. Moments like these show the professionalism of the marina millitare.
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RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are....

Post by cohimbra »

Hi, I don't think that the Coastguard captain is an hero (don't misunderstand me), simple he is a military,
and he did what he had to do...the other captain...well, it's evident.
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chesmart
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RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are....

Post by chesmart »

Cohimbra he started S&R before a distress call was sent by the ship if he waited for the distress more people would have died. He took the decision after calling the ship and the officers on deck told the coast guard that every thing is ok and that it was a minor electrical problem. The first call the coast guard received was by a passenger who said the ship hit something and they lost electricity. Imagine if he waited for the distress call from the ship.
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RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are....

Post by crsutton »

ORIGINAL: 21pzr
All it will do is be used by Costa Cruises to deny responsibility and throw the Captain and the officers under the bus: "We have written policies about this, obviously the Captain did not follow them, so how could we know and be responsible for this awful tragedy". Just watch and see.

Bill

Bill,

I made this exact same comment to my wife yesterday. The only letter to the editor that I ever wrote (well, that got published) was to Time Magazine following their article on the Exxon Valdes accident. (Hazlewood was on the cover) In it I said that the captain was always responsible no matter but also something to the effect that reduction of the crews and outside pressure on the captain and crew to move cargo no matter what was the real reason for the disaster.

This captain will hang, but this is not all his fault and many won't hang who should.

Thanks for the info. A merchant ship bridge is a lot different from the last time I was on one (1985) The saddest part is that with voice recorders and video cameras, the (ahem) typical sailor conversations found on the bridge back then would have to be suppressed. Lot of philosopher kings to be found on the midnight to 4 watch... And many a discourse that would not suit the recorded record. [;)]
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crsutton
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RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are....

Post by crsutton »

ORIGINAL: sandman455

ORIGINAL: 21pzr

. . . His main failure was abandoning the vessel before the passengers. . .

Here is a different perspective.

As a former officer in a navy and as a company owner I see the captain's main failure is that he totally disregarded his mission. Getting off the dying vessel too early isn't even on the radar. He totals a $500 million asset, kills some of his passengers and wrecks an entire industry. You realize he has left thousands unemployed and thousands more will follow. Everyone one with that company, cruise ship industry and the industries that support them will feel the pain. Ships sink and people die but not for getting closer to the shore so better pictures can be taken or so folks can actually see who they are waving at. This is an obscenity to all who have ever been entrusted with such responsibility.

It would have been 10x better if he was drunk and passed out on the Lido deck. At least then his employer and all who are following the story could relate to something classified as an illness. Something that could have been hidden. Instead all he had was bad judgment and that is exactly the stuff everyone tries so hard to weed out before they delegate so much responsibility to the individual. It is a nightare the few could understand unless you actually entrusted someone with so much.

A person in command of a vessel whether in a military or a civilian has responsibilities. They do not include making folks happy - ever. To think otherwise is to clearly not see it from the perspective of those who own that ship and fund his paycheck. They care about the passengers being happy, but they don't pay this man to worry about it. He's there to protect their investment and to carry out a mission that is as simple and as complex as getting them from point A to point B safe and sound. That is it.

When you completely disregard this all encompassing mission, it doesn't really matter if you push passengers out of the way to jump off first. It's inconsequential.


Well I agree with the exception that I doubt this will have very little impact on the industry overall. There have been plenty of cruise ship foul ups over the past decade but the industry has weathered the storm and should do just fine. I don't see people walking away from cruise ships as a result of this. The public generally has a short memory about these things. This was a scary accident but I don't think many view it as a major disaster.
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RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are....

Post by Chickenboy »

Thought of you lot when I saw this... [:D]

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RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are....

Post by Oliver Heindorf »

Looking  at my Combat replay report as I read my tracker Alerts, I found out that his father probabply served in WWII as well. I lost AO Neches, sunk by unkown devices. Looking at the combat report the day before it says: "Fires are out of control at AO Neches. Ship cannot be saved." Thanks !!! [:@]


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RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are....

Post by cohimbra »

ORIGINAL: che200

Cohimbra he started S&R before a distress call was sent by the ship if he waited for the distress more people would have died. He took the decision after calling the ship and the officers on deck told the coast guard that every thing is ok and that it was a minor electrical problem. The first call the coast guard received was by a passenger who said the ship hit something and they lost electricity. Imagine if he waited for the distress call from the ship.


you tell the truth, but he has done what is expected of a commander of captaincy or any other person with similar responsibilities. In my opinion you should not praise 'the norm', but rather to highlight the incompetence.

PS forgive me if I write mistakes, I find difficult to understand and write in english...
have not been a good student
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chesmart
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RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are....

Post by chesmart »

Se vuoi possiamo usare l Italiano.[:)]

Well he is part of the Marina Millitare which has always had very high standards for her captains so to an extent you are right.
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