This is just wack...
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- guytipton41
- Posts: 351
- Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:01 am
- Location: Houston, TX
This is just wack...
Hi Folks,
What the heck is the Japanese player doing wrong???
A couple of noobs playing their 1st PBEM, vanilla Dec7 scenario.
Big carrier battle near Efate on 16 Jan 1942. The KB should be at the peak of their game. Four CV on both sides. Should be splatter city for the USN - right? The IJN lose the Kaga, Akagi, Shokaku, Zuikaku, Chiyoda, Chitose and some popcorn. USN loses the Enterprise. So we back up a couple of days and run it again, and again with changing assigned altitudes, and again with USN in 3 TF instead of 4 TF. Every time the IJN is wack - 3 bomb hits from 55 Vals and 1 torpedo hit from 90 Kates. This just feels very wrong for early 1942 with IJN super pilots. And what's up with the perfect coordination among 4 USN CV in 3 TF and 2 hexes? That shouldn't be occurring this early in the war according to the manual.
The Japanese pilots aren't particularly fatigued. The KB is in one largish TF and the USN is in 3 TF with the Enterprise TF leading by 1 hex. USN TFs have 2507, 3601 and 2824 AAA rating, I don't have the corresponding value for the KB.
Below are the alpha strikes on both sides from the 4th run. (Note that a previous version of this battle is in the "Help interpret Combat Results" thread.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Efate at 120,155
Weather in hex: Partial cloud
Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 60 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 45
B5N2 Kate x 90
D3A1 Val x 55
Allied aircraft
F2A-3 Buffalo x 18
F4F-3A Wildcat x 14
F4F-3 Wildcat x 30
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed
B5N2 Kate: 20 destroyed, 11 damaged
D3A1 Val: 2 destroyed, 6 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
F2A-3 Buffalo: 1 destroyed
F4F-3A Wildcat: 1 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat: 3 destroyed
Allied Ships
CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 3, on fire
CA Northampton
CV Yorktown, Torpedo hits 1
CV Saratoga
DD Fanning
CA Chester
CA Salt Lake City
CA Minneapolis
DD Benham
DD Dunlap
Aircraft Attacking:
14 x D3A1 Val bombing from 20000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
16 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 20000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
12 x D3A1 Val bombing from 20000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
6 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
13 x D3A1 Val bombing from 20000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
16 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
13 x D3A1 Val bombing from 20000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
22 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
CAP engaged:
VF-2 with F2A-3 Buffalo (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 15000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 55 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-3 with F4F-3 Wildcat (4 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 49 minutes
3 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-42 with F4F-3 Wildcat (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 24000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 45 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-6 with F4F-3A Wildcat (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 21000 and 24000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 49 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
VMF-221 with F2A-3 Buffalo (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 20000 and 22000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 49 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Enterprise
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Lakatoro at 118,152
Weather in hex: Light rain
Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 25
F1M2 Pete x 26
Allied aircraft
F2A-3 Buffalo x 12
F4F-3A Wildcat x 9
F4F-3 Wildcat x 24
SBD-2 Dauntless x 50
SBD-3 Dauntless x 86
TBD-1 Devastator x 43
Japanese aircraft losses
F1M2 Pete: 1 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3A Wildcat: 1 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat: 3 destroyed
SBD-2 Dauntless: 2 damaged
SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 damaged
TBD-1 Devastator: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged
Japanese Ships
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 10, heavy fires
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB Kirishima, Bomb hits 9, on fire
CA Kinugasa, Torpedo hits 1
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires
CS Chiyoda, Bomb hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Chikuma
DD Hamakaze, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Hatsuharu, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Aoba
DD Nenohi, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Suzukaze, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CS Chitose, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
DD Arare, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Kasumi
DD Shigure, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Urakaze
DD Akigumo, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
Aircraft Attacking:
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
11 x TBD-1 Devastator launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
11 x TBD-1 Devastator launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
2 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x TBD-1 Devastator launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
6 x SBD-2 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SBD-2 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
12 x TBD-1 Devastator launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
14 x SBD-2 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
10 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
10 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SBD-2 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
6 x SBD-2 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-2 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
6 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
6 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-2 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
CAP engaged:
Akagi-1 with A6M2 Zero (1 airborne, 3 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters to 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 8 minutes
Kaga-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 2 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters to 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
Shokaku-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters to 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
Zuikaku-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters to 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes
Chitose-2 with F1M2 Pete (4 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters to 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes
Chiyoda-2 with F1M2 Pete (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters to 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
Chikuma-1 with F1M2 Pete (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Kaga
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Akagi
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Shokaku
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring BB Kirishima
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Zuikaku
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring DD Hatsuharu
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CS Chiyoda
What the heck is the Japanese player doing wrong???
A couple of noobs playing their 1st PBEM, vanilla Dec7 scenario.
Big carrier battle near Efate on 16 Jan 1942. The KB should be at the peak of their game. Four CV on both sides. Should be splatter city for the USN - right? The IJN lose the Kaga, Akagi, Shokaku, Zuikaku, Chiyoda, Chitose and some popcorn. USN loses the Enterprise. So we back up a couple of days and run it again, and again with changing assigned altitudes, and again with USN in 3 TF instead of 4 TF. Every time the IJN is wack - 3 bomb hits from 55 Vals and 1 torpedo hit from 90 Kates. This just feels very wrong for early 1942 with IJN super pilots. And what's up with the perfect coordination among 4 USN CV in 3 TF and 2 hexes? That shouldn't be occurring this early in the war according to the manual.
The Japanese pilots aren't particularly fatigued. The KB is in one largish TF and the USN is in 3 TF with the Enterprise TF leading by 1 hex. USN TFs have 2507, 3601 and 2824 AAA rating, I don't have the corresponding value for the KB.
Below are the alpha strikes on both sides from the 4th run. (Note that a previous version of this battle is in the "Help interpret Combat Results" thread.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Efate at 120,155
Weather in hex: Partial cloud
Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 60 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 45
B5N2 Kate x 90
D3A1 Val x 55
Allied aircraft
F2A-3 Buffalo x 18
F4F-3A Wildcat x 14
F4F-3 Wildcat x 30
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed
B5N2 Kate: 20 destroyed, 11 damaged
D3A1 Val: 2 destroyed, 6 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
F2A-3 Buffalo: 1 destroyed
F4F-3A Wildcat: 1 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat: 3 destroyed
Allied Ships
CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 3, on fire
CA Northampton
CV Yorktown, Torpedo hits 1
CV Saratoga
DD Fanning
CA Chester
CA Salt Lake City
CA Minneapolis
DD Benham
DD Dunlap
Aircraft Attacking:
14 x D3A1 Val bombing from 20000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
16 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 20000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
12 x D3A1 Val bombing from 20000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
6 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
13 x D3A1 Val bombing from 20000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
16 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
13 x D3A1 Val bombing from 20000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
22 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
CAP engaged:
VF-2 with F2A-3 Buffalo (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 15000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 55 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-3 with F4F-3 Wildcat (4 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 49 minutes
3 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-42 with F4F-3 Wildcat (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 24000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 45 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-6 with F4F-3A Wildcat (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 21000 and 24000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 49 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
VMF-221 with F2A-3 Buffalo (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 20000 and 22000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 49 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Enterprise
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Lakatoro at 118,152
Weather in hex: Light rain
Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 25
F1M2 Pete x 26
Allied aircraft
F2A-3 Buffalo x 12
F4F-3A Wildcat x 9
F4F-3 Wildcat x 24
SBD-2 Dauntless x 50
SBD-3 Dauntless x 86
TBD-1 Devastator x 43
Japanese aircraft losses
F1M2 Pete: 1 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3A Wildcat: 1 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat: 3 destroyed
SBD-2 Dauntless: 2 damaged
SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 damaged
TBD-1 Devastator: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged
Japanese Ships
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 10, heavy fires
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB Kirishima, Bomb hits 9, on fire
CA Kinugasa, Torpedo hits 1
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires
CS Chiyoda, Bomb hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Chikuma
DD Hamakaze, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Hatsuharu, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Aoba
DD Nenohi, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Suzukaze, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CS Chitose, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
DD Arare, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Kasumi
DD Shigure, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Urakaze
DD Akigumo, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
Aircraft Attacking:
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
11 x TBD-1 Devastator launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
11 x TBD-1 Devastator launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
2 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x TBD-1 Devastator launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
6 x SBD-2 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SBD-2 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
12 x TBD-1 Devastator launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
14 x SBD-2 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
10 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
10 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SBD-2 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
6 x SBD-2 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-2 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
6 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
6 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-2 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
CAP engaged:
Akagi-1 with A6M2 Zero (1 airborne, 3 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters to 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 8 minutes
Kaga-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 2 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters to 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
Shokaku-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters to 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
Zuikaku-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters to 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes
Chitose-2 with F1M2 Pete (4 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters to 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes
Chiyoda-2 with F1M2 Pete (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters to 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
Chikuma-1 with F1M2 Pete (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Kaga
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Akagi
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Shokaku
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring BB Kirishima
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Zuikaku
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring DD Hatsuharu
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CS Chiyoda
RE: This is just wack...
Two things really stad out on first pass. First the Val's are level bombing from twenty thousand feet which means they will hit diddly squat. They need to be between 10-14k otherwise they will not dive bomb. Its also worth noting that some of the Kates appear to be carrying bombs (CV's out of torpedoes?) which again will not hit very much from 20K.
Second there are only 25 zekess intercepting and approximately none were actually in the air when the raid was spotted (only 15 minutes out as well which gives basically no time to get enough of them in the air. Something is seriously screwed with the Japanese players plane orders but I can't tell what from just the report.
I'd bet that if you all set everything to fly at 14K and the IJN player had his zeroes set at 50% CAP 50% escort things would turn out very differently. It honestly looks like there were no zeroes flying combat patrol at all.
[edit] Probably a lack of sorties as well which seems supported by some of the Kates carrying bombs.
Second there are only 25 zekess intercepting and approximately none were actually in the air when the raid was spotted (only 15 minutes out as well which gives basically no time to get enough of them in the air. Something is seriously screwed with the Japanese players plane orders but I can't tell what from just the report.
I'd bet that if you all set everything to fly at 14K and the IJN player had his zeroes set at 50% CAP 50% escort things would turn out very differently. It honestly looks like there were no zeroes flying combat patrol at all.
[edit] Probably a lack of sorties as well which seems supported by some of the Kates carrying bombs.
RE: This is just wack...
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 10, heavy fires
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB Kirishima, Bomb hits 9, on fire
CA Kinugasa, Torpedo hits 1
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires
CS Chiyoda, Bomb hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Chikuma
DD Hamakaze, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Hatsuharu, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Aoba
DD Nenohi, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Suzukaze, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CS Chitose, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
DD Arare, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Kasumi
DD Shigure, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Urakaze
DD Akigumo, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
If the Devastators are close enough to launch torpedoes, the KB is about 3 hexes too close.
If the Devastators are close enough to drop anything, the KB is about 4 hexes too close.
If the Dauntlesses are close enough to use 1K bombs, the KB is about 5 hexes too close.
I'm guessing that several things happened:
1 - The KB was operating out of Japanese Naval Search territory and within Allied Naval Search territory. Therefore, the Allies spotted the KB but the KB didn't spot the Allies.
2 - The Japanese CAP quantity was too low.
3 - The Japanese CAP altitude was too high.
BTW - did all of the KB CVs have full compliments of torpedoes? You can't reload them everywhere.
The KB is a great weapon if you use it correctly. Read PzB's AAR to see how a True Master uses the KB to its full potential.
Better luck next time.
- Canoerebel
- Posts: 21099
- Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2002 11:21 pm
- Location: Northwestern Georgia, USA
- Contact:
RE: This is just wack...
1. It's never a good thing when Japanese carriers meet Allied carriers in a 1:1 battle. Both sides will usually take damage - quite often the damage will be roughly equivalent - and that math isn't good for Japan. Ever.
2. Here, the damage was lopsided against Japan. A big reason is is that the Allies had three carrier TFs, thus diluting Japanese strikes considerably, while the Japanese eggs were all in a single basket, and thus quite easy pickings.
2. Here, the damage was lopsided against Japan. A big reason is is that the Allies had three carrier TFs, thus diluting Japanese strikes considerably, while the Japanese eggs were all in a single basket, and thus quite easy pickings.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
RE: This is just wack...
ORIGINAL: guytipton41
What the heck is the Japanese player doing wrong???
Hi guytipton41.
Saros has hit the center of the issue. The Japanese player has set his DBs to 20k, this is out of the divebombing band (10-14).
Still, with the strategic position it may be possible he even takes losses when the setting is correct.
Just in case the second CR is the first Allied wave attacking:
Check the CAP settings. 25 Zeros assigned to CAP is much too low outside the IJN air umbrella. Imagine, of those 25 there
is only a small fraction airborne, and those are trying to stop a dedicated raid of about 200 attackers.
RE: This is just wack...
From the looks your bombing from 20K. That's to high. As Saros stated 10-14K (i use 15k myself). Your units will take more damage but will dive bomb rather than level bomb. Split your CV's into 2 groups. Even though you can get large strikes from 4 decks in one TF I don't like all my CV's being able to be hit in a single strike.
RE: This is just wack...
Attacking flights don't hit individual TF's they hit all the ships in a hex so having multiple CV TF's doesn't help dilute the strike.
There are also hardcoded coordination penalties which occur over certain numbers of planes flying from a single TF for the two sides however but I can't remember exactly what they were other than the Allies were at an optimum of 2CV per TF in 1942 and increasing from there and the IJN started at a high number and decreased every year.
Don't forget that the big allied fleet CV's carry far more planes than the IJN carriers and prior to the June '42 airgroup resizing the IJN carriers are usually at less than max capacity unless you load some more planes onto them.
There are also hardcoded coordination penalties which occur over certain numbers of planes flying from a single TF for the two sides however but I can't remember exactly what they were other than the Allies were at an optimum of 2CV per TF in 1942 and increasing from there and the IJN started at a high number and decreased every year.
Don't forget that the big allied fleet CV's carry far more planes than the IJN carriers and prior to the June '42 airgroup resizing the IJN carriers are usually at less than max capacity unless you load some more planes onto them.
RE: This is just wack...
Actually, it was plane number not CV number that mattered, with the US increasing and the IJN constant.
Offhand, I remember it being something like;
Allies 42 - 100-200
Allies 43 - 150-300
Allies 44/45 - 200-400
Japan - 200-400
EDIT: Verified from the manual, page 167.
As for what went wrong; where was the IJN CAP? And why were the DBs at 20k?
Offhand, I remember it being something like;
Allies 42 - 100-200
Allies 43 - 150-300
Allies 44/45 - 200-400
Japan - 200-400
EDIT: Verified from the manual, page 167.
As for what went wrong; where was the IJN CAP? And why were the DBs at 20k?
RE: This is just wack...
yup, agree. The key was the level bombing Vals...[:-]
RE: This is just wack...
Japanese failure was combination of wrong altitude of Vals, very high hit rate of allied DBs, ridiculous 160 NM detection range of allied radar (it's a bug I think) and lack of CAP fighters.
IMO early in the game KB is actually quite vulnerable, because it's seriously lacking fighters. 4 japanese carriers have just about 70 fighters, not enough for both escort and CAP.
IMO early in the game KB is actually quite vulnerable, because it's seriously lacking fighters. 4 japanese carriers have just about 70 fighters, not enough for both escort and CAP.
RE: This is just wack...
ORIGINAL: Puhis
Japanese failure was combination of wrong altitude of Vals, very high hit rate of allied DBs, ridiculous 160 NM detection range of allied radar (it's a bug I think) and lack of CAP fighters.
IMO early in the game KB is actually quite vulnerable, because it's seriously lacking fighters. 4 japanese carriers have just about 70 fighters, not enough for both escort and CAP.
Yep, and the CV airgroups cant be resized until mid-late July...
One way to help it is to use the CVLs and CVEs(with resized fighter groups) with your CVs. About 10 knots is lost in speed but its possible to more than double fighter numbers.
- Grfin Zeppelin
- Posts: 1514
- Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:22 pm
- Location: Germany
RE: This is just wack...
[:D][:D]ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin
The Petes couldnt stop the Wildcats ? Outrage.
RE: This is just wack...
Do you know what beta patch the attacking all ships occurred in. It used to be that an incoming strike picked a task force by value to attack and could only attack the ships in that task force, not attack everything in the hex. Also the deluded strike comment was on outbound strikes rather than inbound strikes
RE: This is just wack...
This is at least since 1106i, if not from the beginning of AE.(too long ago for me to remember)ORIGINAL: mullk
Do you know what beta patch the attacking all ships occurred in. It used to be that an incoming strike picked a task force by value to attack and could only attack the ships in that task force, not attack everything in the hex. Also the deluded strike comment was on outbound strikes rather than inbound strikes
Although from my testing, it seems the green machine finds it easier to target more TF's in one hex than the blood reds. Not starting a crayon war - just an anecdotal observation having played both...
RE: This is just wack...
ORIGINAL: guytipton41
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Morning Air attack on TF, near Efate at 120,155
Weather in hex: Partial cloud
Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 60 minutes
High altitude and the rather clear sky must have provided a benefit in the detection. With 60 minutes ETA, the large number of fighter on standby have enough time to launch and climb to the target altitude. This results in a comparably good ration of CAP versus incoming attackers.
ORIGINAL: guytipton41
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Morning Air attack on TF, near Lakatoro at 118,152
Weather in hex: Light rain
Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes
As seen in the report, a lot of the IJ fighters on standy on the decks require around 15 minutes or more to even get into the air and climb towards the attackers. That means the attack will not be broken up before the final run, dive or weapon drop at best. Plus, the ratio of IJ CAP to incoming planes is so low that a lot of the attackers will not be disturbed.
A bit one-sided, but not entirely unconceiveable I would say. A detection range of 160nm is quite large, but maybe one of the operators had a lucky day in reading the noise?
You could try lowering the altitude of the Japanese strike packages to 10-15k, as suggested by others. I personally use 10k for torpedo and dive bombers and split my fighters to two groups, one at 10k and another higher, say 15k. Doesn't seem to impair coordination much.
- castor troy
- Posts: 14331
- Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:17 am
- Location: Austria
RE: This is just wack...
ORIGINAL: guytipton41
Hi Folks,
What the heck is the Japanese player doing wrong???
Aircraft Attacking:
14 x D3A1 Val bombing from 20000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
16 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 20000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
12 x D3A1 Val bombing from 20000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
6 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
13 x D3A1 Val bombing from 20000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
16 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
13 x D3A1 Val bombing from 20000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
22 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
easily put, he did nearly everything wrong. There were only 44 Kates that were attacking as they should, the rest of the bombers were all bombing from 20000ft, means they will hit pretty much nothing. The IJN can be more than happy to score even 3 bomb hits. It's still very bad luck that those 44 Kates only score 1 torp hit which is very uncommon. Don't know about their skill, usually 44 Kates wipe out two carriers at least. But the rest, player's faulty settings are the reason.
edit: what people said above earlier anyway already.
- HansBolter
- Posts: 7191
- Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:30 pm
- Location: United States
RE: This is just wack...
so do you do over when the Allies get trashed as well or only when the Japanese get trashed?
Hans
- Dan Nichols
- Posts: 863
- Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:32 pm
RE: This is just wack...
One reason the Kates with torpedoes did poorly is that 27 USN fighters were vectored to the bombers. Bombers of any kind that have fighters attacking them are very ineffective.
I think that the two obligations you have are to be good at what you do and then to pass on your knowledge to a younger person