Most of my air groups aren't participating in combat

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Crackaces
Posts: 3858
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:39 pm

RE: Most of my air groups aren't participating in combat

Post by Crackaces »

ORIGINAL: michaelm

The number of planes shown is the total number of planes available to CAP. This is not the number that will engage in combat. Due to the way the animations and the engine works, the number of planes is needed upfront before the actual combat takes place. Planes can be out of contact, out of position, landing to rearm/fuel, etc.

I can look to see if there is a way to limit the numbers to those actually available a particular air battle (or somehow reporting the actual number versus the number available), but this could just as easily start a 'None of my CAP is flying" threads...[:D]

This would not have any impact on the actual mechanics of the combat.



I think this is a great data point ... From my aspect I am thinking there is some inefficiency built in [purposefully?] for huge air battles. My understanding of the game the islands and base forces limit these air battles, but Grey Joy's thread brings out the possibility of thousands of fighters [scenrario #2 vs. a Home Islands landing .. go figure] engaging that is quite unique to the game. So maybe a little more feedback in the combat report would be helpful ..Question: Does this break combat reporter?
"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
hades1001
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:05 pm

RE: Most of my air groups aren't participating in combat

Post by hades1001 »

well I run a few tests of the new beta. I failed to get a Jap coordinated attack, the losses of Jap aircraft increased as I can observed, but the result for Allied is still horrible.

Pilots on both side is 75 exp 75 skill, here is an example:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 114,65

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 42 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 46
G4M2 Betty x 80
N1K1-J George x 169
P1Y1 Frances x 13



Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 239
F4U-1D Corsair x 54
F4U-4 Corsair x 23
F6F-5 Hellcat x 612


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 3 destroyed
G4M2 Betty: 25 destroyed, 17 damaged
G4M2 Betty: 13 destroyed by flak
N1K1-J George: 9 destroyed
P1Y1 Frances: 3 destroyed
P1Y1 Frances: 4 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 3 destroyed
F4U-1D Corsair: 4 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 4 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Randolph, Torpedo hits 2
CV Lexington, Torpedo hits 1
CV Antietam
CVL Independence
CVL San Jacinto, Kamikaze hits 1
CV Hornet, Torpedo hits 1
CV Hancock
CV Bennington
BB Massachusetts
BB Washington
CV Yorktown, Torpedo hits 1
CV Bunker Hill
CV Franklin, Torpedo hits 2, on fire
BB Indiana
CV Intrepid
CV Ticonderoga
CVL Cabot

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
26 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
20 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
10 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
8 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
11 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
22 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
11 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
14 x A6M5 Zero sweeping at 10000 feet
12 x A6M5 Zero sweeping at 10000 feet
10 x A6M5 Zero sweeping at 10000 feet
8 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
16 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
5 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 114,65

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 118 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 35 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 20
N1K1-J George x 94
P1Y1 Frances x 99



Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 224
F4U-1D Corsair x 49
F4U-4 Corsair x 23
F6F-5 Hellcat x 582


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 4 destroyed
N1K1-J George: 19 destroyed
P1Y1 Frances: 15 destroyed, 29 damaged
P1Y1 Frances: 12 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 6 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Lexington
BB Alabama, Torpedo hits 1
CVL Cowpens
CV Shangri-La
CV Enterprise, Torpedo hits 1
BB Iowa
CV Franklin, on fire
CV Saratoga
CVL Belleau Wood
CV Lake Champlain
CV Randolph
BB Washington, Torpedo hits 3, Kamikaze hits 2, and is sunk
CVL Cabot
CV Intrepid
CV Ticonderoga
CV Boxer, Kamikaze hits 1
CVL Monterey, Torpedo hits 2, heavy damage
CV Bon Homme Richard
CB Alaska

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
26 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
20 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
26 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
10 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
2 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
4 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
15 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
7 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
9 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
5 x A6M5 Zero sweeping at 10000 feet


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 114,65

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 36 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 27
N1K1-J George x 13
P1Y1 Frances x 36



Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 214
F4U-1D Corsair x 45
F4U-4 Corsair x 23
F6F-5 Hellcat x 548


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 6 destroyed
N1K1-J George: 6 destroyed
P1Y1 Frances: 8 destroyed, 8 damaged
P1Y1 Frances: 5 destroyed by flak

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
CV Wasp
CV Ticonderoga, Torpedo hits 1
CB Guam
CV Lexington
CV Yorktown
CVL Langley
CV Kearsarge, Torpedo hits 1, Kamikaze hits 1, on fire
BB Alabama



Aircraft Attacking:
32 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 114,65

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 42 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M2 Betty x 49
N1K1-J George x 47



Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 202
F4U-1D Corsair x 42
F4U-4 Corsair x 23
F6F-5 Hellcat x 525


Japanese aircraft losses
G4M2 Betty: 9 destroyed, 11 damaged
G4M2 Betty: 7 destroyed by flak
N1K1-J George: 11 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 10 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Essex
BB Massachusetts, Kamikaze hits 1
CB Alaska, Torpedo hits 1
CV Shangri-La, Torpedo hits 2
CVL Cabot
CV Bon Homme Richard, Torpedo hits 1
BB South Dakota, Torpedo hits 2
CV Saratoga
CV Lexington, Kamikaze hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CV Enterprise, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CV Kearsarge, on fire
CV Bennington



Aircraft Attacking:
10 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
14 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 114,65

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 119 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 35 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 70
N1K1-J George x 161
P1Y1 Frances x 34



Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 182
F4U-1D Corsair x 44
F4U-4 Corsair x 23
F6F-5 Hellcat x 467


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 8 destroyed
N1K1-J George: 42 destroyed
P1Y1 Frances: 15 destroyed, 1 damaged
P1Y1 Frances: 4 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 9 destroyed

Allied Ships
BB North Carolina
CVL Independence
BB Iowa
CV Bon Homme Richard, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CV Bunker Hill
CV Essex
CV Hancock, Torpedo hits 1
CVL Langley
CV Boxer



Aircraft Attacking:
2 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
1 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 114,65

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 42 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M2 Betty x 10
N1K1-J George x 43



Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 176
F4U-1D Corsair x 44
F4U-4 Corsair x 21
F6F-5 Hellcat x 426


Japanese aircraft losses
G4M2 Betty: 1 destroyed, 8 damaged
G4M2 Betty: 1 destroyed by flak
N1K1-J George: 7 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-5 Hellcat: 5 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Essex
CV Hornet, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CV Bennington
CV Shangri-La



Aircraft Attacking:
5 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
4 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 114,65

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 117 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 41 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M2 Betty x 8



Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 154
F4U-1D Corsair x 43
F4U-4 Corsair x 20
F6F-5 Hellcat x 379


Japanese aircraft losses
G4M2 Betty: 1 destroyed

No Allied losses

Image

As swift as wind;
As calm as wood;
Invasion like flames;
Defense like rocks.
hades1001
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:05 pm

RE: Most of my air groups aren't participating in combat

Post by hades1001 »

Michael, is the EXE you provided named 1108r6d?

I just want to make sure I'm using the modified EXE
Image

As swift as wind;
As calm as wood;
Invasion like flames;
Defense like rocks.
hades1001
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:05 pm

RE: Most of my air groups aren't participating in combat

Post by hades1001 »

another run

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 114,65

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 42 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 66
G4M2 Betty x 93
N1K1-J George x 179



Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 239
F4U-1D Corsair x 54
F4U-4 Corsair x 23
F6F-5 Hellcat x 612


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 3 destroyed
G4M2 Betty: 23 destroyed, 40 damaged
G4M2 Betty: 11 destroyed by flak
N1K1-J George: 9 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 13 destroyed

Allied Ships
CVL Monterey
CV Boxer
CVL Bataan
CV Bunker Hill
CVL Langley
CV Franklin, Torpedo hits 1
CV Essex, Kamikaze hits 1
CV Wasp, Kamikaze hits 1
CV Intrepid
CV Shangri-La
CB Alaska, Torpedo hits 1
CVL San Jacinto, Kamikaze hits 1
BB Wisconsin, Torpedo hits 1
BB North Carolina, Kamikaze hits 1
CVL Independence
CV Kearsarge
BB South Dakota, Torpedo hits 1
CV Hornet
BB Indiana, Kamikaze hits 1
CV Hancock
CV Saratoga
CV Lake Champlain



Aircraft Attacking:
30 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
24 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
23 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
7 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
13 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
9 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
15 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
13 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
19 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
13 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
13 x A6M5 Zero sweeping at 10000 feet
19 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
6 x A6M5 Zero sweeping at 10000 feet
12 x A6M5 Zero sweeping at 10000 feet
9 x A6M5 Zero sweeping at 10000 feet


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 114,65

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 36 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 27
G4M2 Betty x 36
N1K1-J George x 45
P1Y1 Frances x 13



Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 231
F4U-1D Corsair x 52
F4U-4 Corsair x 22
F6F-5 Hellcat x 583


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 5 destroyed
G4M2 Betty: 18 destroyed
G4M2 Betty: 8 destroyed by flak
N1K1-J George: 9 destroyed
P1Y1 Frances: 3 destroyed
P1Y1 Frances: 3 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 7 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Yorktown
CV Saratoga
CV Boxer
CVL Cabot
CV Hancock
BB South Dakota
CVL Monterey, Torpedo hits 1
CV Bon Homme Richard, Torpedo hits 2
CV Franklin
CV Wasp, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CVL Belleau Wood
BB Wisconsin, Torpedo hits 1



Aircraft Attacking:
1 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
8 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
6 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
5 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
4 x A6M5 Zero sweeping at 10000 feet
5 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 114,65

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 47
P1Y1 Frances x 50



Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 224
F4U-1D Corsair x 50
F4U-4 Corsair x 22
F6F-5 Hellcat x 549


Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 9 destroyed
P1Y1 Frances: 9 destroyed, 26 damaged
P1Y1 Frances: 8 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 2 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Essex, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CV Hancock
BB Massachusetts, Torpedo hits 1
BB Iowa
CV Wasp, on fire
CV Yorktown
CVL Independence
CB Guam
CV Ticonderoga
CV Saratoga, Torpedo hits 1
CVL Cowpens
BB Washington, Torpedo hits 1, Kamikaze hits 1, on fire



Aircraft Attacking:
12 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
26 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
5 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 114,65

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 49
P1Y1 Frances x 54



Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 197
F4U-1D Corsair x 41
F4U-4 Corsair x 20
F6F-5 Hellcat x 478


Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 10 destroyed
P1Y1 Frances: 28 destroyed, 8 damaged
P1Y1 Frances: 4 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 6 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Bennington
CV Intrepid
CV Wasp, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CVL Cowpens
BB Washington, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CV Hornet, Kamikaze hits 1
CVL Langley
CV Bunker Hill, Torpedo hits 1
CV Saratoga, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CV Lake Champlain
CV Essex, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB Indiana
CLAA Oakland
CB Guam
CV Antietam



Aircraft Attacking:
1 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
16 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 114,65

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 3
P1Y1 Frances x 31



Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 156
F4U-1D Corsair x 25
F4U-4 Corsair x 13
F6F-5 Hellcat x 384


Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed
P1Y1 Frances: 21 destroyed
P1Y1 Frances: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
BB North Carolina

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 114,65

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 119 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 35 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 64
N1K1-J George x 109
P1Y1 Frances x 13



Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 180
F4U-1D Corsair x 47
F4U-4 Corsair x 23
F6F-5 Hellcat x 502


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 3 destroyed
N1K1-J George: 6 destroyed
P1Y1 Frances: 6 destroyed
P1Y1 Frances: 2 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-5 Hellcat: 2 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Ticonderoga
CV Randolph
CV Yorktown
BB Wisconsin
CLAA Oakland



Aircraft Attacking:
1 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 114,65

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 42 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 23
G4M2 Betty x 21
N1K1-J George x 87



Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 180
F4U-1D Corsair x 47
F4U-4 Corsair x 23
F6F-5 Hellcat x 489


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 4 destroyed
G4M2 Betty: 12 destroyed
G4M2 Betty: 3 destroyed by flak
N1K1-J George: 15 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1D Corsair: 2 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 11 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Hornet, Kamikaze hits 1
DD Wadsworth
BB Iowa
CVL Cabot
CV Shangri-La, Kamikaze hits 2, on fire
CV Enterprise
CV Franklin



Aircraft Attacking:
6 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
4 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
3 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

Image

As swift as wind;
As calm as wood;
Invasion like flames;
Defense like rocks.
soticrandy
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:15 pm
Location: Denver, CO

RE: Most of my air groups aren't participating in combat

Post by soticrandy »

Can you switch it around and do a HB raid over Japan proper? It would be interesting to see if the CAP suffers the same sort of loss rates the CAP did in your example.

Edit: Seems a more reasonable result to me, there will always be leakers, seems like the escorts performed and got the bombers through to the target.
You take my life but I'll take yours too
You fire your musket but I run you through
So when you're waiting for the next attack
You'd better stand there's no turning back.
hades1001
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:05 pm

RE: Most of my air groups aren't participating in combat

Post by hades1001 »

So I reduce Jap planes to half and run it again, guess what?

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Sep 10, 45
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Chiba at 115,63

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 118 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 35 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 46
N1K1-J George x 153
P1Y1 Frances x 49



Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 239
F4U-1D Corsair x 54
F4U-4 Corsair x 23
F6F-5 Hellcat x 612


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 5 destroyed
N1K1-J George: 16 destroyed
P1Y1 Frances: 10 destroyed, 8 damaged
P1Y1 Frances: 9 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 7 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Kearsarge
BB South Dakota
CV Yorktown
BB Indiana, Kamikaze hits 1, on fire
CV Bon Homme Richard
CV Shangri-La
CV Essex
BB North Carolina, Kamikaze hits 3, on fire
CB Alaska
BB Washington, Torpedo hits 1
CVL Cowpens
CV Lexington



Aircraft Attacking:
8 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
9 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
14 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
22 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
20 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
23 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
12 x A6M5 Zero sweeping at 10000 feet
15 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
13 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
4 x A6M5 Zero sweeping at 10000 feet
8 x A6M5 Zero sweeping at 10000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Chiba at 115,63

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 18
P1Y1 Frances x 49



Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 237
F4U-1D Corsair x 53
F4U-4 Corsair x 23
F6F-5 Hellcat x 597


Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 5 destroyed
P1Y1 Frances: 23 destroyed, 6 damaged
P1Y1 Frances: 5 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-5 Hellcat: 2 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Lexington
CV Bon Homme Richard
CV Wasp
CV Antietam
CVL San Jacinto
CV Franklin
CV Enterprise, Torpedo hits 1



Aircraft Attacking:
6 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
2 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
5 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Chiba at 115,63

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 119 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 41 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M2 Betty x 72
N1K1-J George x 71



Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 220
F4U-1D Corsair x 51
F4U-4 Corsair x 22
F6F-5 Hellcat x 557


Japanese aircraft losses
G4M2 Betty: 8 destroyed, 21 damaged
G4M2 Betty: 17 destroyed by flak
N1K1-J George: 14 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1D Corsair: 2 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 11 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Hancock, Torpedo hits 1
BB Alabama
CV Enterprise, Kamikaze hits 1
CVL Independence
BB Missouri
CV Hornet, Kamikaze hits 1, on fire
CV Ticonderoga
CVL Langley, Torpedo hits 1, Kamikaze hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CV Saratoga
CV Shangri-La
CV Bennington
CV Boxer
CVL Belleau Wood, Kamikaze hits 1
CV Antietam, Torpedo hits 1
CA Baltimore
CV Bunker Hill
CV Randolph



Aircraft Attacking:
29 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
11 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
30 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
8 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 6000 feet
Image

As swift as wind;
As calm as wood;
Invasion like flames;
Defense like rocks.
User avatar
HansBolter
Posts: 7191
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:30 pm
Location: United States

RE: Most of my air groups aren't participating in combat

Post by HansBolter »

yea, quite reasonable [8|] the 30 escorts kept the the 600 hellcats busy!!!


What was modeled was the Marianas Turkey Shoot and the game delivers a JFB wet dream [X(]


Not good people......simply not good.....unless of course one is a JFB.
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RE: Most of my air groups aren't participating in combat

Post by Crackaces »

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

yea, quite reasonable [8|] the 30 escorts kept the the 600 hellcats busy!!!


What was modeled was the Marianas Turkey Shoot and the game delivers a JFB wet dream [X(]


Not good people......simply not good.....unless of course one is a JFB.

That has been my concern in looking at this situation ...

But in this case exp is the same .. what if IJ exp is closer to 50 and Allies closer to 80 ... what are those results .. if the same then we have indentfied the question in my opinion ....
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RE: Most of my air groups aren't participating in combat

Post by LoBaron »

To me this looks ok in case this is from a single fragmented attack.

The allied result looks bad, although I´d expect that with those numbers.
The raid was probably fragmented as the numerically superior CAP engaged, this does not look like bad coordination.

You caught 7 torpedoes out of 80 potentials in the first wave. Thats a high hit percentage but as you say, the pilots are top notch.
The first pack has a high percentage of escort fighters, so kept many escorts aways long enough to launch, still a high loss rate of the bettys,
looks like potentially 50% losses.

From there in every consecutive battle the CAP cohesion and total number of defending planes available decreased and so reduced its effectiveness.

Most larger attack packets took heavy losses but were always escorted by a reasonable number of fighters so there was a notable number of leakers
which could attack in a shape to still score hits.

What also got through once was a smaller pack, probably because it happened already late in the battle so many of the listed fighters were
already either engaged or unable to engage, and also because the smaller size of the pack increased stealth.

The TF was engaged by a F/TB mix of 1019 planes total, which contained a good mix of excorts vs. bombers on nearly all packs.

Against this the TF was optimally able to flield a total of 928 fighters (same skill) but it has to be considered that only a certain percentage
(depending on service level, CAP percentage, commander skill) wer airborne to intercept each specific pack at one time.
Also every pack occupied this fighter so it was not able to engage in other battles.

Against this the TF suffered 26 torp hits and the occasional follow up kami.


The CAP effectiveness could be improved depending on what measures you took already, but it is already performing ok.
The attacker´s pilots are not 19 year olds with 2 hours of flighttraining, this was an attack by 75/75 professionals.
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RE: Most of my air groups aren't participating in combat

Post by hades1001 »

Saipan to Tokyo TEST 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Tokyo , at 114,60

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 22,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 126
N1K1-J George x 359
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 33
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 118
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 14
Ki-61-Ib Tony x 2
Ki-61-Ic Tony x 44
Ki-84b Frank x 49
Ki-84r Frank x 49
Ki-201 Karyu x 42



Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 168


Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 2 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-IV Oscar: 1 destroyed
Ki-84r Frank: 1 destroyed on ground
A6M7 Zero: 3 destroyed on ground
G4M2 Betty: 3 destroyed on ground
Ki-67-Ib Peggy: 4 destroyed on ground
Ki-9 Spruce: 2 destroyed on ground
P1Y1 Frances: 6 destroyed on ground
S1A1 Denko: 2 destroyed on ground
Ki-45 KAIc Nick: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-51 Sonia: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-46-III Dinah: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-25 Superfort: 26 destroyed, 88 damaged
B-29-25 Superfort: 2 destroyed by flak



Airbase hits 14
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 34

Aircraft Attacking:
28 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
27 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
25 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
15 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
16 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
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RE: Most of my air groups aren't participating in combat

Post by HansBolter »

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

To me this looks ok in case this is from a single fragmented attack.

The allied result looks bad, although I´d expect that with those numbers.
The raid was probably fragmented as the numerically superior CAP engaged, this does not look like bad coordination.

You caught 7 torpedoes out of 80 potentials in the first wave. Thats a high hit percentage but as you say, the pilots are top notch.
The first pack has a high percentage of escort fighters, so kept many escorts aways long enough to launch, still a high loss rate of the bettys,
looks like potentially 50% losses.

From there in every consecutive battle the CAP cohesion and total number of defending planes available decreased and so reduced its effectiveness.

Most larger attack packets took heavy losses but were always escorted by a reasonable number of fighters so there was a notable number of leakers
which could attack in a shape to still score hits.

What also got through once was a smaller pack, probably because it happened already late in the battle so many of the listed fighters were
already either engaged or unable to engage, and also because the smaller size of the pack increased stealth.

The TF was engaged by a F/TB mix of 1019 planes total, which contained a good mix of excorts vs. bombers on nearly all packs.

Against this the TF was optimally able to flield a total of 928 fighters (same skill) but it has to be considered that only a certain percentage
(depending on service level, CAP percentage, commander skill) wer airborne to intercept each specific pack at one time.
Also every pack occupied this fighter so it was not able to engage in other battles.

Against this the TF suffered 26 torp hits and the occasional follow up kami.


The CAP effectiveness could be improved depending on what measures you took already, but it is already performing ok.
The attacker´s pilots are not 19 year olds with 2 hours of flighttraining, this was an attack by 75/75 professionals.


and one can't help but wonder how many of those "resonable numbers" of leakers SHOULD have been shot down by the game's almost non-existent Allied AA..........

is the problem an unreasonable percentage of CAP leakers or an overnerfed Allied AA?
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RE: Most of my air groups aren't participating in combat

Post by crsutton »

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
ORIGINAL: michaelm

The duration of the interception is a factor of the time of detection, the planes available to intercept and their time to intercept.
Not all planes will participate in combat or will it be a slogging match to 'the last man standing' as in WITP.

If the CAP can 'overcome' the escorts, some CAP can be directed against the bombers rather than engage the CAP ("5 planes vectored on to bombers").



Thanks Micheal,

the problem me and Rader are seeing in our game is that if a big raid gets in coordinated -meaning all the bombers at the same time with a decent escort- (which happens quite a lot of times, especially for the japs) the result is always - and i mean always - a complete defeat for the defender...CAP...even Huge CAP in a level 9 AF, is worthless.
If the same raid goes in unescorted then the CAP becomes effective again.... and it becomes a problem late in the war cause under these conditions the defence of Japan homeland industries becomes almost impossible. At the same time, as i experienced with my CVEs (see above), anything like the Okinawa invasion of RL becomes impossible cause thousands of torpedo bombers will always get through, no matter how much CAP you put above your carriers and your landing TFs....

I don't really see this as an issue. The real issue is that once the Allies get within effective bombing range of the homeland, then it is pretty much over for Japan-as it should be. The only effective way to defend Japanese industry is to keep the Allies away as long as possible. As far as I can see, now that you are in range of industry, Rader is in trouble. To think that Rader is going to be able to put up uber CAP turn after turn is unrealistic. And if it did happen, we would be hearing about it from some pretty unhappy AFBs. Sometimes he knocks you about but sometimes your raids go in untouched and hit him hard. This is the way it should be. I see nothing out of sorts with this. In fact considering the unreliablilty of Japanese radar, lack of radios and rather average vectoring skills, I would expect for the Japanese air defense to sometimes screw the pooch.

Ship to ship carrier battles might be another problem or as Nemo states massive kami raids. However, I think if they were to find a way to make Allied naval AA act up to snuff and this problem will be closer to resolution. Another solution is to just find a way to make kami raids always go in uncoordinated, this would be more realistic as well.
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RE: Most of my air groups aren't participating in combat

Post by HansBolter »

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Ship to ship carrier battles might be another problem or as Nemo states massive kami raids. However, I think if they were to find a way to make Allied naval AA act up to snuff and this problem will be closer to resolution. Another solution is to just find a way to make kami raids always go in uncoordinated, this would be more realistic as well.


Agreed.

And before I get lambasted for referring to Allied AA as almost non-existent, yes, there were AA losses in each attack, the question is were they resonable in number?

Historically, AA was responsible for a greater number of enemy plane losses than air to air combat, yet AA loses in each example barely equaled or was less than the air to air losses. This may well be Working As Designed, but is it working as it should?
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RE: Most of my air groups aren't participating in combat

Post by crsutton »

ORIGINAL: viberpol
ORIGINAL: LoBaron -- The Defender of the Air Model [;)]
viberpol, as witpqs mentioned, these things happen. In RL.
The only thing that could be criticized is how the game engine handles attacks with planes carrying 2 torps, but that they came through without a scratch until attack run is nothing astounding.
viberpol, no offense, but I need 10 seconds to analyse why your examples are not showing faults of the game engine, but are battle setups that were bound to end in exactly the realistic results you witnessed. Posting them as examples for an issue is just plain wrong.

LoBaron, no offence taken. [:)]
I forgot that the squadron of Catalinas are jus as swift, as fast and as tiny is size that they cannot be tracked on radar (even if they've got a 47 minutes early warning and descending from 29 k to 19k takes.. hmm... 10 minutes?) and behaved just as the Dauntlesses at Midway... [8|]Ah, and after the attack they are all able to disappear in clouds without even a single contact with 300 defending fighters... [;)] It's not a single squadron, a packet from a bigger battle just overlooked by the defending CAP busy with other raids from different directions...

I am not a native English user so I can have problems communicating clearly what’s boiling in my head… but I am sure I wasn’t asking for your interpretation of the CR. As a long time WITP/AE fan I have the right to speak about my experiences and I am here support Rader’s opinion…

Maybe my examples given above are not well chosen but I can easily present dozens similar to Rader’s. This is just a signal for Devs that maybe (just maybe) there’s something wrong with the code. Nothing more. Nothing less. It's The place. The Tech part of the Forum.

Maybe that’s the bad weather impact on CAP that does not impact the general effectiveness of a raid the same way not limiting the bombing accuracy… I don’t know. But what we know is that sometimes in AE both sides suffer from CAP ineffectiveness. All experienced PBEM players know that. Play a bit longer. Read the AARs. Stop "defending " the model because we're not attacking it. No matter what, we all love AE. [:)] Just commenting on it for the sake of higher playability. [;)]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
ORIGINAL: ADB123

It's the result of a design over-reaction to a perceived problem with CAP in the original WitP - CAP didn't "leak enough" to satisfy the folks who redesigned WitP into AE, so they overcompensated and now CAP leaks to the point of being a joke.
And don't listen to all of the apologists who make up imaginary scenarios to "explain away" the current really, REALLY bad design of CAP in AE.
Sounds quite right.... however the strange fact is that it seems to me that "sometimes" even the big raid gets butchered (see my previous disaster at Tokyo where i lost 460 planes!!!) but most of the times, when the raid goes in "coordinated" the CAP really seems to do a bad job...
Whenever the raid gets uncoordinated CAP does wonders....when it gets coordinated escort does wonders... there must be a good point in the middle of these two extremes imho...
If this is true...and it's WAD... i think Rader has no chance of having a a/c production at all by 1945... and i, on the opposite, have no chance of land anywhere in Japan...imagine what another coordinated japanese raid could do to my ships if i get close to the coast of japan....
ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
The air battles are becoming an issue...both our CAPs are harmless against big strikes...it's a problem....but untill remains a balanced problem (so affecting the both of us) i can live with it.
However i think the Devs should take a look at those saves....Rader sent to Michealm the latest save containing the last air battle...we both think there's something "borked" in the code about this kind of battles....

Ark, you are citing one example only. Early in our game you had about a dozen kates slip in under my 100 wildcats and damage two carriers off of Port Headland. The exact same circumstances applied in that not one wildcat attacked your kates. Well you and I have played long enough to know that 95% of the time this sort of attack would have gotten caught and shredded. Quite frankly, if it happened as expected 100% of the time, the game would just be boring... I have no problem with this sort of attack. Except of course when you pull it off...and not me.[;)]
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RE: Most of my air groups aren't participating in combat

Post by crsutton »

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

To me this looks ok in case this is from a single fragmented attack.

The allied result looks bad, although I´d expect that with those numbers.
The raid was probably fragmented as the numerically superior CAP engaged, this does not look like bad coordination.

You caught 7 torpedoes out of 80 potentials in the first wave. Thats a high hit percentage but as you say, the pilots are top notch.
The first pack has a high percentage of escort fighters, so kept many escorts aways long enough to launch, still a high loss rate of the bettys,
looks like potentially 50% losses.

From there in every consecutive battle the CAP cohesion and total number of defending planes available decreased and so reduced its effectiveness.

Most larger attack packets took heavy losses but were always escorted by a reasonable number of fighters so there was a notable number of leakers
which could attack in a shape to still score hits.

What also got through once was a smaller pack, probably because it happened already late in the battle so many of the listed fighters were
already either engaged or unable to engage, and also because the smaller size of the pack increased stealth.

The TF was engaged by a F/TB mix of 1019 planes total, which contained a good mix of excorts vs. bombers on nearly all packs.

Against this the TF was optimally able to flield a total of 928 fighters (same skill) but it has to be considered that only a certain percentage
(depending on service level, CAP percentage, commander skill) wer airborne to intercept each specific pack at one time.
Also every pack occupied this fighter so it was not able to engage in other battles.

Against this the TF suffered 26 torp hits and the occasional follow up kami.


The CAP effectiveness could be improved depending on what measures you took already, but it is already performing ok.
The attacker´s pilots are not 19 year olds with 2 hours of flighttraining, this was an attack by 75/75 professionals.


and one can't help but wonder how many of those "resonable numbers" of leakers SHOULD have been shot down by the game's almost non-existent Allied AA..........

is the problem an unreasonable percentage of CAP leakers or an overnerfed Allied AA?

Bingo!.......[&o]
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RE: Most of my air groups aren't participating in combat

Post by soticrandy »

So there has been a LBA vs Carrier TF and an unescorted B-29 raid from long range. Can someone create an example of the situation that Greyjoy and Rader are facing? While were at it why not a large fighter vs fighter sweep and Carrier Death Star vs Carrier Death Star....

[8|]Opening a can of worms I feel.
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RE: Most of my air groups aren't participating in combat

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

yea, quite reasonable [8|] the 30 escorts kept the the 600 hellcats busy!!!


What was modeled was the Marianas Turkey Shoot and the game delivers a JFB wet dream [X(]


Not good people......simply not good.....unless of course one is a JFB.

You are staring at a tiny part of the big picture and still believe you can draw conclusions on the whole situation.

That is if somebody looked at the fate of VT-8 in the battle of midway and ranting about why 4 IJN CVs were sunk.
C´mon...

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

To me this looks ok in case this is from a single fragmented attack.

The allied result looks bad, although I´d expect that with those numbers.
The raid was probably fragmented as the numerically superior CAP engaged, this does not look like bad coordination.

You caught 7 torpedoes out of 80 potentials in the first wave. Thats a high hit percentage but as you say, the pilots are top notch.
The first pack has a high percentage of escort fighters, so kept many escorts aways long enough to launch, still a high loss rate of the bettys,
looks like potentially 50% losses.

From there in every consecutive battle the CAP cohesion and total number of defending planes available decreased and so reduced its effectiveness.

Most larger attack packets took heavy losses but were always escorted by a reasonable number of fighters so there was a notable number of leakers
which could attack in a shape to still score hits.

What also got through once was a smaller pack, probably because it happened already late in the battle so many of the listed fighters were
already either engaged or unable to engage, and also because the smaller size of the pack increased stealth.

The TF was engaged by a F/TB mix of 1019 planes total, which contained a good mix of excorts vs. bombers on nearly all packs.

Against this the TF was optimally able to flield a total of 928 fighters (same skill) but it has to be considered that only a certain percentage
(depending on service level, CAP percentage, commander skill) wer airborne to intercept each specific pack at one time.
Also every pack occupied this fighter so it was not able to engage in other battles.

Against this the TF suffered 26 torp hits and the occasional follow up kami.


The CAP effectiveness could be improved depending on what measures you took already, but it is already performing ok.
The attacker´s pilots are not 19 year olds with 2 hours of flighttraining, this was an attack by 75/75 professionals.


and one can't help but wonder how many of those "resonable numbers" of leakers SHOULD have been shot down by the game's almost non-existent Allied AA..........

is the problem an unreasonable percentage of CAP leakers or an overnerfed Allied AA?

You mean accounting for raid of 1019 75/75 pilots attacking in well protected consecutive flights?
Anything between 70-200, depending on the percentage of fighters to bombers would be a good guess.

How anybody could think such an attack is stoppable with only light damage is completely beyond me.



Guys that ca´nt be true, this is simple battle analysis, thats not the holy grail of air warfare...
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RE: Most of my air groups aren't participating in combat

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: michaelm

The number of planes shown is the total number of planes available to CAP. This is not the number that will engage in combat. Due to the way the animations and the engine works, the number of planes is needed upfront before the actual combat takes place. Planes can be out of contact, out of position, landing to rearm/fuel, etc.

I can look to see if there is a way to limit the numbers to those actually available a particular air battle (or somehow reporting the actual number versus the number available), but this could just as easily start a 'None of my CAP is flying" threads...[:D]

This would not have any impact on the actual mechanics of the combat.


Thanks for the GREAT and ONGOING support. Would love to test this in DownFall scenario where large air combats are easy to obtain right from the get go.
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RE: Most of my air groups aren't participating in combat

Post by hades1001 »

It's just sad to see 150 JAP LBA can penetrate the 1000 CAP and heavily damaged 2 carriers.

And it happens a lot.
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RE: Most of my air groups aren't participating in combat

Post by LoBaron »

hades, you are running in 150 75/75 expert pilots. What on earth should keep them from scoring some, more so if
they are part of a raid of several hundred more planes with equal skill?

It should happen a lot.


Historically the US CV´s suffered much less, because the attacks were usually flown by even smaller numbers,
with units containing at best a skill/exp spread containing very few pilots of the 60-85 skill range (maybe 5 or less representing
the few surviving vets) and the rest probably spreading within 55-30´s range. In contrast the average US skill
of this historical setup should remain in the 60-75 range, so outclass and outnumber on average.
And historically even there were leakers, and even with this setup ther will be one or the other.


You cannot expect to run a test with ahistorical test conditions and assume you will get historical late war results.

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