Pilot experience vs Pilot skill

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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Commander Stormwolf
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Pilot experience vs Pilot skill

Post by Commander Stormwolf »

There are some ideas about the new system of pilot experience

first of all, this is a massive improvement on the previous witp system (remember straffing those empty bases to make 90+ exp aces?)
thank you for separating the pilot skills to prevent this ridiculous exploit

Now, it appears that

a) experience is general skill that is based on basic skills (landing, navigation)
b) skill is based on the specific function (dogfight, torpedo, ASW)

there is a limit to how much a pilot can be trained (70 max)

i am convinced this is the correct idea for pilot skill, but not general experience

general skills (experience) such as landing and navigation (related to ops losses)
is based on # of hours of flying, and can easily be trained

the intial batch of japanese pilots (1941/1942), many had 1000+ hours of flying time (over china, etc)
so they were very good at navigation and landing, but had little combat experience (chinese had few planes)

so the fighter crews need to have about

95 (general experience), 75 (say the average fighter pilot who was dogfighting only a handful of times)

historically (in the war), you could put elite transport pilots (flying Douglas Dakotas) and put them into B-25s,
and they would navigate and land just fine (but the accuracy of the ordnance would be poor)

I would also like the option in the editor to change each unit's general experience, and separate skill levels
(so genzan kokutai would have 95 general skill, and 70 torpedo skill)

as it stands, most people are training their pilots up to 50/70 that means they can dogfight pretty well
but can't find their way home or land properly, i would say the typical USAAF cadet was the opposite,
they had lots of flying time practicing landings in trainers, but their dogfight skills were pretty low until they
got into their units (70/50)

I would like the "general training" option, to be training general experience instead of training all the skills a little bit


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PaxMondo
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RE: Pilot experience vs Pilot skill

Post by PaxMondo »

Disagree completely.

Current system is closer to reality in my opinion. Experience is hours in the air. Skill is specific techniques. Skill can be taught, experinece only acquired.

However, you do not have to convince me. You have to convince the Elf who is just about boarding a transport for another tour. Good luck.
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crsutton
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RE: Pilot experience vs Pilot skill

Post by crsutton »

To take it a step further, experience is combat. You can train a pilot so far but that is it. The rest comes at the front. I have played enough to know that a 70 exp 60 air fighter pilot is way better than a 60 exp 70 air pilot. Once in combat it is exp that grows-air skill grows too but not so much.
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Commander Stormwolf
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RE: Pilot experience vs Pilot skill

Post by Commander Stormwolf »

Experience is hours in the air. Skill is specific techniques

It's not how the current system works

the current system:

1) "experience" just means flying time, pilots with 90 exp but 20 air combat skill are just transport pilots in fighter cockpits
pilots with high experience have fewer ops losses, that's it

2) "skill" is actually "experience" as in how much "experience" they have with any type of combat


it works well, except you can teach a pilot to be good in fighter combat, but you can't teach them to land or to navigate
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PaxMondo
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RE: Pilot experience vs Pilot skill

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Once in combat it is exp that grows-air skill grows too but not so much.
Correct, operations (combat) increase exp. AKA flight hours.

Skill is like "Top Gun". it is techniques.
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Commander Stormwolf
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RE: Pilot experience vs Pilot skill

Post by Commander Stormwolf »

yes, the easiest way it to have an "ops" skill,
that you can train and improve navigation and landing
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PaxMondo
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RE: Pilot experience vs Pilot skill

Post by PaxMondo »

Disagree. Exp is far more than just nav and landing. Go find a high hour pilot, say +10,000 hours. By him a few beers and talk with him. Then you'll know what exp really is.

PS: I need to add that I am NOT a high hour pilot. But I have one with +20,000 hours sitting just feet away from my office 24/7.
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Commander Stormwolf
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RE: Pilot experience vs Pilot skill

Post by Commander Stormwolf »

Correct, operations (combat) increase exp. AKA flight hours.

Skill is like "Top Gun". it is techniques.

no. they fixed it so you cannot do that. people used to argue
that it's okay to attack the empty dot hex and train up to 90+ exp, those days are gone

try putting 90 exp and 20 air skill transport pilots into fighter squadron..
it is working properly


my complaint is a simple one: the system is perfect except,

the basic flight skills of landing and keeping formation ( 27x A6M2 loses cohesion with
G4M1 formation and is returning to base[8|] ) cannot be trained
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RE: Pilot experience vs Pilot skill

Post by Commander Stormwolf »

I have one with +20,000 hours sitting just feet away from my office 24/7

Good. Please ask what is harder to learn,

landing and navigation or ACM


if he's got 20,000+ hours of flying Douglas Dakotas then he's pretty good at landing and navigating i bet

so he's got 95 ops skill


if he's never flown a fighter, he would have 20 air skills, if he's a fighter ace he's got 95 air skill

but there is nobody in the world who has 1,000 hours of flying time and has 90 air skill, but 20 ops skill
(except those kids who play flight simulators, probably know all about tactics but couldn't land a real one)


the "ops skill" under the present system is mis-labeled "experience"
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USSAmerica
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RE: Pilot experience vs Pilot skill

Post by USSAmerica »

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
Experience is hours in the air. Skill is specific techniques

It's not how the current system works

the current system:

1) "experience" just means flying time, pilots with 90 exp but 20 air combat skill are just transport pilots in fighter cockpits
pilots with high experience have fewer ops losses, that's it

2) "skill" is actually "experience" as in how much "experience" they have with any type of combat


it works well, except you can teach a pilot to be good in fighter combat, but you can't teach them to land or to navigate

Oh, OK. I didn't realize you were the person who wrote the Aviation system code for the game. [8|]
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USSAmerica
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RE: Pilot experience vs Pilot skill

Post by USSAmerica »

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
I have one with +20,000 hours sitting just feet away from my office 24/7

Good. Please ask what is harder to learn,

landing and navigation or ACM


if he's got 20,000+ hours of flying Douglas Dakotas then he's pretty good at landing and navigating i bet

so he's got 95 ops skill


if he's never flown a fighter, he would have 20 air skills, if he's a fighter ace he's got 95 air skill

but there is nobody in the world who has 1,000 hours of flying time and has 90 air skill, but 20 ops skill
(except those kids who play flight simulators, probably know all about tactics but couldn't land a real one)


the "ops skill" under the present system is mis-labeled "experience"

You really do not have any idea how far you are shoving your foot into your mouth. [:-]

The developer who was in charge of the air system in the game knows a thing or two about flying, specifically about flying combat aircraft, even more specifically about flying naval combat aircraft from the flight deck of an aircraft carrier. Read a little bit and ask around a little bit before you start declaring yourself as the expert on the matter. [;)]
Mike

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kfsgo
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RE: Pilot experience vs Pilot skill

Post by kfsgo »

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf


the basic flight skills of landing and keeping formation ( 27x A6M2 loses cohesion with
G4M1 formation and is returning to base[8|] ) cannot be trained

Sure they can - put them in a fighter unit and have them on CAP, or put them in a bomber unit and have them on naval search. If they're pure training units you can kick the range down to 0, so they won't stray too far from base and accumulate excessive fatigue. Not perfect, but if you really need the experience it can be done.
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RE: Pilot experience vs Pilot skill

Post by Commander Stormwolf »

aside from personal expertise, I am British nobility and my great uncle was knighted by king george V
so my word is considered law [:)]


the current system is very good, thank you for taking away the "empty base training"

it needs to be understood

japanese pilots in 1941 = many basic flight hours under their belts

excellent at navigation and landings, didn't crash land as often as the allies did (since they had 1000 hours
of droning around china under their belts)

in fact that was the main reason the japanese training program was so long,
to ensure that damage is not caused to navy property (airplanes)

same reason why Royal Flying corps pilots were not given parachutes in world war 1,
seems strange but it is acceptable in a culture where material was more important than lives

it can be agreed by everyone, a lot easier to learn to land (step 1 of flying)
than to learn secondary techniques

it is painful to watch those betties lost while transferring from truk to rabaul,
when really that is what japanese pilots were good at (the pre-war ones)


you can not have the skill to become a fighter ace without seeing the elephant in the sky
you can spend 100 hours practicing your landing in trainers, and then you will be pretty good at it
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PaxMondo
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RE: Pilot experience vs Pilot skill

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: USS America
The developer who was in charge of the air system in the game knows a thing or two about flying, specifically about flying combat aircraft, even more specifically about flying naval combat aircraft from the flight deck of an aircraft carrier.
+1

Thanks for stating this much better than my feable attempt. I guess I was trying to be too subtle, too tactfull. Have to remember this ...
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LoBaron
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RE: Pilot experience vs Pilot skill

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
it is painful to watch those betties lost while transferring from truk to rabaul,
when really that is what japanese pilots were good at (the pre-war ones)


you can not have the skill to become a fighter ace without seeing the elephant in the sky
you can spend 100 hours practicing your landing in trainers, and then you will be pretty good at it

Besides what has been already pointed out by PaxMondo and USSAmerica, your conclusion on exp gain is wrong as well.

Exp can be trained by flying training missions only. It just takes a bit longer than individual skill, and it caps sooner. Usually a pilot trained up to 60-70 in two individual skills
reaches an exp level of 50 at the end of his training. (e.g. air skil/def skil; nav search/navB; grdB/recon;...)
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bk19@mweb.co.za
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RE: Pilot experience vs Pilot skill

Post by bk19@mweb.co.za »

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
you can not have the skill to become a fighter ace without seeing the elephant in the sky
you can spend 100 hours practicing your landing in trainers, and then you will be pretty good at it

Aahh don't rekin you needs a hunnerd hours to larn to land... any landin you can walks away from is a good'n...
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PaxMondo
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RE: Pilot experience vs Pilot skill

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: bk19@mweb.co.za
ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
you can not have the skill to become a fighter ace without seeing the elephant in the sky
you can spend 100 hours practicing your landing in trainers, and then you will be pretty good at it

Aahh don't rekin you needs a hunnerd hours to larn to land... any landin you can walks away from is a good'n...
+1

pretty much ALL flights end up back on land ... one way or another ... [:D]
Pax
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