Fuel

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JudgeDredd
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Fuel

Post by JudgeDredd »

I've just created 3 fleets (4 escorts, 2 frigates and 2 destroyers in 2 of them and a fleet of 6 escorts as my QRF) - I've just noticed a fleet limping back through the cosmos - and why? Some of the ships are out of fuel.

That's really the kind of mistake I expect I would make - but to be completely honest not one I would expect my automated fleets to make. This fleet is pretty useless now if anything were to happen.

Can I ask if there is any valid reason why my fleet cannot compute distance to nearest available refuelling resource and fuel present along with fuel usage? The question is actually a leading one because to be honest I can't think of a reason...these factors are all available to the computer - so the computer should be able to compute a "bingo" fuel level and, when reached, the fleet turns around and refuels. Even if there's an attack going on, the automated fleet should set refuelling as a priority - lest it be stuck in the middle of nowhere and being able to react to nothing.

IIRC this is an issue that was in the original Distant Worlds prior to 2 expansions - so I'm confused why it's still here.

If there's a valid reason why an automated fleet doesn't have the ability to work out at any one point that it needs to head to the nearest refuelling depot or run out of fuel, then I'm all ears.
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Litjan
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RE: Fuel

Post by Litjan »

Hi,

there is a slider that you can set in the options. It sets the percentage to determine how many ships in a fleet need to be out of fuel before they "assemble". In DW-Speak this means "assemble and get more gas", I guess.

The whole fuel thing in the fleet has been subject to debate. Obviously it is easy to add a ship to a fleet that doesnt have the "legs" to go with the rest. Now should the whole fleet turn and refuel every time this one ship is out of fuel? Obviously not.

I agree with you, it would be great if the fleet AI was a bit smarter about this. Just detach out of fuel ships (with a warning, maybe) and send them off to refuel.

You can micromanage this a bit by making sure that your ships have pretty much the same range - unfortunately the design-editor has currently no indication of real ship "range" - a grave oversight in my eyes.

You can also manually dismiss ships from a fleet if they always run out first.

Another idea - just add a judicious amount of fuel cells to your designs. They are not THAT expensive in terms of space and really make long-range operations less tedious. Also make sure you research storage technonology and also make sure your fleets wait at systems "MOTIONLESS" in between assignments. If you tell them to "patrol" a planet or base or so they will circle that target waisting precious fuel - another design oversight in my opinion.

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Farrels
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RE: Fuel

Post by Farrels »

Its a bit of micromanagement but as stated above just add more fuel cells to your designs. Also make sure you have a couple of resupply ships dotted around your empire
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JudgeDredd
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RE: Fuel

Post by JudgeDredd »

I don't have any resupply ships as yet - I've still got to get to that (no designs available or something)

Thanks for the pointer on the fuel cells. I'm not long into my game and so I haven't really got alot of infrastructure (resupply ships etc) or technology going.

As for the "if one ship is out, the whole fleet returns" - yeah - I'd kind of like that because it's in reality not going to be "1 ship" - it would be a percentage of your fleet (in this instance it's my escorts that were running out - and I had 4 in each fleet - so half the fleet was out of fuel).

Maybe I shouldn't mix escorts with frigates and destroyers - but that kind of seems counter intuitive.

The sooner I get a resupply ship design and get some made the better.

With resupply ships - can you attach them to your fleet or would you not?
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Bingeling
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RE: Fuel

Post by Bingeling »

I don't attach resupply ships to fleets, but I do put them in their own fleets so that it is easier to keep track of them. I place them where needed.

If one ship in a fleet is out of fuel, this could be because an as simple reason as their last refuel point was out of fuel before this one got there. One thing to keep in mind is that a fleet order is an order to every ship in the fleet, and that a fleet member with no order runs to its leader. So if I spot a fleet where one ship has low fuel, I typically make sure the fleet gets its order first, and order the low fuel one to refuel individually. You just have to remember his side trip if I need to give the fleet a new order. But once a fleet is selected, you immediately see the fuel bars in the selection window down left. Once you give the order, you can send refuel order to the ones that lack fuel to follow the fleet.

As for fleets, I tend to only use frigates and escorts as automated ships. Destroyers and larger are the ones put in fleets. One thing to keep in mind is that at least through much of the game you need 2 reactors to get full hyper space speed. This makes it a bad idea to mix 1 reactor ships into fleets with ships that have 2 or more. If you select a ship you can quickly click the design and see what the hyper space speed is (out right in the movement section).
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Erik Rutins
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RE: Fuel

Post by Erik Rutins »

Hi Judge,

Escorts have a very limited range by default. The AI does not normally put them in fleets if you allow it to control fleet formation and I'd advise you to do the same. Leave them for system patrol and short range escorting. As far as why it might have mis-calculated, combat is usually the main reason. Combat uses up fuel and is unpredictable, so going from point to point and back is easy to calculate, but if there's combat in the middle an unpredictable amount of fuel will get used up. Fuel management is actually greatly improved over the first two releases.

I think the main issue though is keeping ships with very limited fuel (Escorts especially) out of fleets.

Regards,

- Erik
Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC


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JudgeDredd
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RE: Fuel

Post by JudgeDredd »

Fair enough - I'll remove escorts from my fleets...maybe make little groups and dot them near mining stations for immediate protection

I do not have any designs for Resupply ships so can't build any - so how do I get the design? I've looked in the research page and can't find anything to do with ship designs (weapons and other things are in there) and I can't find anything in the manual except what they are used for and where to make them...
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Erik Rutins
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RE: Fuel

Post by Erik Rutins »

Resupply ships become available through research. In the construction tree, the same research that opens up the Bakuras High Speed Shipyard wonder gives you resupply ships. You will also need to research the size boost at the same level to be able to build large enough ships sizes for the smallest resupply ship.

Regards,

- Erik
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JudgeDredd
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RE: Fuel

Post by JudgeDredd »

ta much
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hondo1375
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RE: Fuel

Post by hondo1375 »

JudgeDredd, keep us updated on how your experience with fuel management goes. For me this has always been the weakest part of the game and has kept me from buying this expansion so far. I'm happy to hear Erik's comment that it has been greatly improved (some more details on that would be welcome), but I'm still in wait and see mode.
First wargame: Jedko's 1st edition "The Russian Campaign". First computer wargame: don't remember the name, but it was on punch cards.
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cookie monster
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RE: Fuel

Post by cookie monster »

mod your explorers/destroyers/transports for fuel range early game

Escorts and frigates dont belong in fleets, they are too short legged

Fuel management is a pita until resupply ships and large designs
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the1sean
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RE: Fuel

Post by the1sean »

Also, ships with tons of firepower consume fuel in vast quantities during combat. Therefore the ships that see the most action run out of fuel much faster than their counterparts that might not get many shots off.

Also, when moving any ships long distances, I issue the move as a "refuel" mission to a base near the destination, and then queue up the final destination move. "shift+rightclick" is useful for getting these options.
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Keston
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RE: Fuel

Post by Keston »

My big fuel problem and one which preserved the evil Gorgons from invasion is that I only now figured out that because I had a reclaimed ancient ship as the fleet leader* the entire fleet when given refuel orders would limp over to a hydrogen gas mining station, ignoring the Caslon one that I sent them to (playing in varied clusters is fun and has its own range challenges). Since I thought I only had Caslon ships, I did not consider the issue.

So, a

TIP: If you mix Hydrogen and Caslon ships in a Fleet, split them in two groups and then give each group the "Refuel all" at the appropriate places, since the Refuel All order sends them all where the Fleet leader goes.

* I decided as a house rule to take only two ships per ship graveyard for research, one to use, and destroy the rest or leave them for the AI. Isolated far from the nearest cluster, I had only 3 resurrected shjps.
Nalim27
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RE: Fuel

Post by Nalim27 »

Hmmm this can considered as bug - if in fleet exits more that one fuel type, then after command "Refuel all" the fleet must be automatically splited into groups for each fuel type then each group will go to nearest fuel source and at the end they will automatically rejoined in one point (maybe the same point where player give Refuel order).
I think that this is not too easy for developers to implement this correctly but it will be very useful.
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w1p
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RE: Fuel

Post by w1p »

you can work out how much hyperspace time the ships can do a little math in the ship design screen. You can also work out how much fuel they will use per second whilst using weapons + full thrust, I tend to make sure my early game warships, frigates and destroyers and carriers as soon as they come along, all have a rough minimum of travel time + fight time, even if that means at 8 guns instead of 10 and one less vector so I can have 2 extra fuel tanks on the destroyer.

This might seem silly, but when it comes to managing 100 ships and making fleets out of nearby ships short notice, it makes management an awful lot easier.

It's probably already been mentioned, and i'm sure the dev's are on it, but making an extra bit of info the ship design screen giving range (max travelling distance at full hyperspeed) and fight time (factoring in weapon use per sec and thrust usage) might be helpful to people who don't have a calculator :)
balto
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RE: Fuel

Post by balto »

ORIGINAL: the1sean

Also, ships with tons of firepower consume fuel in vast quantities during combat. Therefore the ships that see the most action run out of fuel much faster than their counterparts that might not get many shots off.

Also, when moving any ships long distances, I issue the move as a "refuel" mission to a base near the destination, and then queue up the final destination move. "shift+rightclick" is useful for getting these options.


I think you are correct because I felt like fuel levels seemed low after battles, but in a way, how does this work? Your weapons usage should be covered by your Reactors (as long as the Excess Energy is more than the Engine/Weapon formula). So with that said, how does combat use up more fuel?

This FUEL thing is somewhat confusing to me, I mean, I get it, but not this part and not how to get the range calculation, etc...
Manzikert
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RE: Fuel

Post by Manzikert »

balto-  I think the piece you are missing here is that the reactors don't always run at 100%.  They run on an "as needed" basis.  They are not just off/on.
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feelotraveller
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RE: Fuel

Post by feelotraveller »

While you can't do it in the design screen you can check your ships range on the main screen. Select you ship and zoom out, way out. You will see a dotted white circle indicating maximum current travel range without weapons fire. Remember if a fleet is selected the range is limited by the shortest ranged ship. Also this is a current range indicator - it works not from potential maximum range but from what is in the fuel tanks right now. To see the potential maximum check a ship with full fuel tanks. It also calculates range as a one way journey...
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tjhkkr
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RE: Fuel

Post by tjhkkr »

Ah... fuel... my favorite problem... [i mean that both sincerely and with consternation at the same time.]
As to escorts, first thing I do is update them with more fuel tanks... that helps some...
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