41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front)

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BletchleyGeek
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41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front)

Post by BletchleyGeek »

Hi everyone,

having my house haunted by thousands of ghosts of virtual Red Army soldiers, I've found time today to put forward a modified setup (and some TOE tweaks here and there) for the Kiev Military District forces.

Current version is 0.3:

The scenario file is available here
The scenario notes (detailing the changes) here.

Would be cool that some experienced Axis player tried the Lvov Opening on this one (Klydon?). To test this it's only needed to play out the first Axis turn (not even the entirety of the front).

I hope people finds it interesting!

EDIT: Updated to 0.3
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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front)

Post by BletchleyGeek »

Scenario file updated: I left the scenario with the Soviet Union going first [:D]
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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front)

Post by Richard III »

Thank You, I hope more then me download this and give it a spin.
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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front)

Post by Klydon »

Just responding from the other thread at B-G's request.

I will see about looking at it a bit further in depth, but I have a lot on my plate right now with RL and other things going on. My WITE game time has dwindled down a lot. If I get some unexpected time, I will see what I can do and there are some others who can give it a shot as well for different opinions. While the concept of the Lvov pocket is a general thing, how it occurs has a lot of varients that go along with it in terms of the amount of force brought in from AGC.
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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front)

Post by BletchleyGeek »

ORIGINAL: Klydon
I will see about looking at it a bit further in depth, but I have a lot on my plate right now with RL and other things going on. My WITE game time has dwindled down a lot. If I get some unexpected time, I will see what I can do and there are some others who can give it a shot as well for different opinions. While the concept of the Lvov pocket is a general thing, how it occurs has a lot of varients that go along with it in terms of the amount of force brought in from AGC.

Cool. One source I want to check is the new book by David Stahel "Kiev 1941", which is due to be released next month (or so says Amazon). There I expect to find a coherent narrative of the whole AGS campaign during summer and autumn 1941.

Regarding the Lvov - Stanislav sector. There's a huge gap in Kamenir's account of the early stages of Barbarossa. He really focuses on the battles around the Brody - Lutsk area, but says very little about what was happening to the southwest. I've come to realize that this might be because Kamenir is using as his source STAVKA operational reports. The problem with this is that 8th Mechanized Corps, a really powerful formation deployed to the north and west of Lvov was commanded by A. Vlasov, the Soviet Great Patriotic War Benedict Arnold. So the deeds of this important Soviet unit seem to have been completely obliterated from Soviet records.
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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front)

Post by Rasputitsa »

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

ORIGINAL: Klydon
I will see about looking at it a bit further in depth, but I have a lot on my plate right now with RL and other things going on. My WITE game time has dwindled down a lot. If I get some unexpected time, I will see what I can do and there are some others who can give it a shot as well for different opinions. While the concept of the Lvov pocket is a general thing, how it occurs has a lot of varients that go along with it in terms of the amount of force brought in from AGC.

Cool. One source I want to check is the new book by David Stahel "Kiev 1941", which is due to be released next month (or so says Amazon). There I expect to find a coherent narrative of the whole AGS campaign during summer and autumn 1941.

Regarding the Lvov - Stanislav sector. There's a huge gap in Kamenir's account of the early stages of Barbarossa. He really focuses on the battles around the Brody - Lutsk area, but says very little about what was happening to the southwest. I've come to realize that this might be because Kamenir is using as his source STAVKA operational reports. The problem with this is that 8th Mechanized Corps, a really powerful formation deployed to the north and west of Lvov was commanded by A. Vlasov, the Soviet Great Patriotic War Benedict Arnold. So the deeds of this important Soviet unit seem to have been completely obliterated from Soviet records.

I found 'The Bloody Triangle: The Defeat of Soviet Armor in the Ukraine, June 1941 by Victor Kamenir' very informative, although it only covers the first week, or so, it does so in great detail, including the fortunes of the 8th Mech.[:)]
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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front)

Post by BletchleyGeek »

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
I found 'The Bloody Triangle: The Defeat of Soviet Armor in the Ukraine, June 1941 by Victor Kamenir' very informative, although it only covers the first week, or so, it does so in great detail, including the fortunes of the 8th Mech.[:)]

I must admit I focused on the first half of the book. Can you remember - from the top of your head - where was Kamenir getting the account of 8th Mech Corps? On the situation maps 8th Mech Corps for the first four days - Turn 1 in WitE - I couldn't find it.
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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front)

Post by Rasputitsa »

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
I found 'The Bloody Triangle: The Defeat of Soviet Armor in the Ukraine, June 1941 by Victor Kamenir' very informative, although it only covers the first week, or so, it does so in great detail, including the fortunes of the 8th Mech.[:)]

I must admit I focused on the first half of the book. Can you remember - from the top of your head - where was Kamenir getting the account of 8th Mech Corps? On the situation maps 8th Mech Corps for the first four days - Turn 1 in WitE - I couldn't find it.

I am away from home, in New Zealand, how far can you go. I will be back in the UK on 5th Nov and will able to help then, if required.

We are all at the mercy of our sources, but this book seemed very convincing, with huge amount of detail on those first days of combat on the Southwest Front. A lot of the information seemed to be personal recounting of the events, with some extracts from reports written just after the early actions (a sort of Red Army inquest).

Unfortunately I cannot confirm any of that until next month, but I felt that the book was an incredible testament to the conditions the Red Army officers and men endured, whilst still being able to impose a check on the Germans, however short lived.

Highly recommended reading for an understanding of those first battles.


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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front)

Post by BletchleyGeek »

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
I am away from home, in New Zealand, how far can you go. I will be back in the UK on 5th Nov and will able to help then, if required.

That's about the fartest you can go from Spain without an spaceship [:D]

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front)

Post by RedBunny »

I'm about half way through the book myself. First mention of the 8 Mech Corp is in Chapter 4, page 41. There the author discusses the 8th's TOE and lists "Sbornik, vol. 33" as the source. Checking the bibliography I don't see anything authored by a 'Sbornik' but then I wouldn't be surprised if I'm missing it -- but then the editing in the book is horrible so I'd be even more surprised if it simply isn't missing. In the 'e-books' section (http://www.militera.lib.ru) there is the entry "Collection of Combat Documents of Great Patriotic War, Volume 33". There's no author but the 'Volume 33' implies this is the one.

Anyway, the next mention I saw of the 8th cites a Russian language source "Difficult Times" by Popel who I believe was the Corps' commisar.
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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front)

Post by BletchleyGeek »

ORIGINAL: RedBunny

I'm about half way through the book myself. First mention of the 8 Mech Corp is in Chapter 4, page 41. There the author discusses the 8th's TOE and lists "Sbornik, vol. 33" as the source. Checking the bibliography I don't see anything authored by a 'Sbornik' but then I wouldn't be surprised if I'm missing it -- but then the editing in the book is horrible so I'd be even more surprised if it simply isn't missing. In the 'e-books' section (http://www.militera.lib.ru) there is the entry "Collection of Combat Documents of Great Patriotic War, Volume 33". There's no author but the 'Volume 33' implies this is the one.

Anyway, the next mention I saw of the 8th cites a Russian language source "Difficult Times" by Popel who I believe was the Corps' commisar.

I think "sbornik" could be translated as "journal", "magazine" or "gazetteer". So your find on militera.lib.ru seems to be right on spot.

I've very limited time at the moment, and if you could get a rough timeline of 8th Mech actions and positions described on the book would be GREATLY appreciated.
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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front)

Post by T-28A »

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
The problem with this is that 8th Mechanized Corps, a really powerful formation deployed to the north and west of Lvov was commanded by A. Vlasov, the Soviet Great Patriotic War Benedict Arnold. So the deeds of this important Soviet unit seem to have been completely obliterated from Soviet records.

Vlasov commanded 4th Mech Corps, not 8th, and there are plenty of details on both in many sources.
"Sbornik vol.33" is the collection of war-time documents assembled and issued in various thematic issues ("sbornik" means assembly of documents), #33 is devoted to the actions of tank troops in summer-autumn 1941 and could be read online from here
http://tashv.nm.ru/SbornikBoevyhDokumen ... sue33.html
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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front)

Post by BletchleyGeek »

ORIGINAL: T-28A
ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
The problem with this is that 8th Mechanized Corps, a really powerful formation deployed to the north and west of Lvov was commanded by A. Vlasov, the Soviet Great Patriotic War Benedict Arnold. So the deeds of this important Soviet unit seem to have been completely obliterated from Soviet records.

Vlasov commanded 4th Mech Corps, not 8th, and there are plenty of details on both in many sources.
"Sbornik vol.33" is the collection of war-time documents assembled and issued in various thematic issues ("sbornik" means assembly of documents), #33 is devoted to the actions of tank troops in summer-autumn 1941 and could be read online from here
http://tashv.nm.ru/SbornikBoevyhDokumen ... sue33.html

I stand corrected about the Vlasov hypothesis, then. Thank you for the correction, T-28 [:)]

Since I take you can read Russian, would you like to help us to get a clear picture of 8th Mech Corps operations in the timeframe of 22 - 26 June?
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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front)

Post by T-28A »

Yep, sure. The 8th Mech was moving all the time. The situation was changing rapidly, and so were the decisions by SWF and 6th Army (Soviet) commands. During 22-26 the 8th Mech was moving from one area to another, preparing to launch attacks here and there, but never launching any, in fact. First, on June 22nd it (according to pre-war plans) left its garrisons and moved west, concentrating in Sambor, as 26th Army's reserve. At night 22-23 it started moving to the region near Lvov, closer to the direction of the main German thrust, as SWF command grasped the initial impression of it by the end of day, and ordered the Corps to subordinate to 6th Army. By mid-day 23rd the corps partially concentrated there, and partially was yet on the move, when the 6th Army commander ordered it to move now west, into the Lvov bulge, and accompany 4th Mech in repelling German attacks within Army's boundaries. The Corps moved there, to the west and arrived by midnight 23/24. Early morning 24th the Corps received the order to move back, east of Lvov again, and concentrate in Brody area and accompany 15th Mech there. This time the road was much harder, with a lot of roadblocks caused by retreating civilians, columns of 32nd Tank Division (of 4th Mech) moving the same narrow roads, Ukrainian nationalists uprising in Lvov itself, and so on, so that the 8th Mech finished assembling in Brody area only by the end of next day, June 25th. By the time it was finally engaged in combat on June 26th the corps moved about 500 km and lost up to 50% of its vehicles.
In my South-West 41 scenarios (many years ago, in a galaxy far away), it was a challenge for designer to choose among the ahistorical course of actions, when 8th Mech is available to Soviet side early on and moves straight to the Brody-Dubno-Lutsk triangle from the start, or historical variant, when the corps artificially delayed to represent its long journey.
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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front)

Post by BletchleyGeek »

ORIGINAL: T-28A

Yep, sure. The 8th Mech was moving all the time. The situation was changing rapidly, and so were the decisions by SWF and 6th Army (Soviet) commands. During 22-26 the 8th Mech was moving from one area to another, preparing to launch attacks here and there, but never launching any, in fact. First, on June 22nd it (according to pre-war plans) left its garrisons and moved west, concentrating in Sambor, as 26th Army's reserve. At night 22-23 it started moving to the region near Lvov, closer to the direction of the main German thrust, as SWF command grasped the initial impression of it by the end of day, and ordered the Corps to subordinate to 6th Army. By mid-day 23rd the corps partially concentrated there, and partially was yet on the move, when the 6th Army commander ordered it to move now west, into the Lvov bulge, and accompany 4th Mech in repelling German attacks within Army's boundaries. The Corps moved there, to the west and arrived by midnight 23/24. Early morning 24th the Corps received the order to move back, east of Lvov again, and concentrate in Brody area and accompany 15th Mech there. This time the road was much harder, with a lot of roadblocks caused by retreating civilians, columns of 32nd Tank Division (of 4th Mech) moving the same narrow roads, Ukrainian nationalists uprising in Lvov itself, and so on, so that the 8th Mech finished assembling in Brody area only by the end of next day, June 25th. By the time it was finally engaged in combat on June 26th the corps moved about 500 km and lost up to 50% of its vehicles.

Wow!
ORIGINAL: T-28A
In my South-West 41 scenarios (many years ago, in a galaxy far away), it was a challenge for designer to choose among the ahistorical course of actions, when 8th Mech is available to Soviet side early on and moves straight to the Brody-Dubno-Lutsk triangle from the start, or historical variant, when the corps artificially delayed to represent its long journey.

Hmmm, have you checked the scenario? I'd certainly appreciate the opinion of a more experienced designer. Criticism is welcomed :)

It's funny but I actually placed 8th Mech Corps west and north of Lvov (Mech Corps in the scenario are deployed in the positions I've gathered they were within 24-36 hours of Barbarossa start). Seems I got it about right, though it would be good to revise the vehicle and tank strength levels.
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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front)

Post by BletchleyGeek »

By the way, South-West 41 was a TOAW scenario?
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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front)

Post by T-28A »

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
Hmmm, have you checked the scenario? I'd certainly appreciate the opinion of a more experienced designer. Criticism is welcomed :)
Sure, with pleasure [:)]
By the way, South-West 41 was a TOAW scenario?

Yep, speaking of SW, there was one regimental level single day 5 km representing whole Ukraine+Moldavia+Crimea campaign in June-September, and another was a battalion level 6 hours 2.5 km for first 10 days of AG Sued vs SWF (with Lvov and Lutsk-Brody-Dubno being the center of actions).
Both were huge and designed for a team play mostly, so I never actively submitted them.
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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front)

Post by T-28A »

Ah, here's one of earlier versions of first one
http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenar ... off&Id=660
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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front)

Post by BletchleyGeek »

ORIGINAL: T-28A
Ah, here's one of earlier versions of first one
http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenar ... off&Id=660

[X(] How long did take supply calculations with that one? [:D] Very nice scale and the map, from the looks of the thumbnail, is awesome.

Does it work in TOAW 3.4?
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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front)

Post by T-28A »

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
[X(] How long did take supply calculations with that one? [:D]
Not much at all. If memory serves well, it took merely 2-3 minutes back then, and today it should be just a couple of seconds with all those neat optimizations Ralph brought in.
And yes, it should load with new TOAW just well, so you could freely check some 22.06-specific unit placements or OoB details there, if needed.
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