Tactical assistance please

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wodin
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RE: Tactical assistance please

Post by wodin »

Well if you give an attack order at brigade\regiment level leave it up to them to decided how to attack. A few times I've seen them use their coys to surround the objective.
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simovitch
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RE: Tactical assistance please

Post by simovitch »

This was a user-made scenario for HTTR and while it was an noble effort (by el savior) the map has got some elevation and contour anomalies and IIRC it was not very well balanced.

Getting cut off is a real problem in the longer BFTB scenarios as your supply trucks and wagons get shot up and you run out of ammo for your heavy weapons rather quickly. HTTR resupply was very basic indeed.

As wodin suggests, try the free BFTB demo and watch the tutorial videos before deciding to buy... and good luck![:)]
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decaro
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RE: Tactical assistance please

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: flibby

I have been playing a lot of the Bastogne scenario with a view of getting this game when the woman allows!

I want to really master the system before buying but ...

... it won't matter because your forces will run of of "otto" anyway.
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Lieste
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RE: Tactical assistance please

Post by Lieste »

Frankly, if you think that your planning can be totally ignored, because the AI 'runs' everything, then I suggest you aren't doing it right.

Taking the tutorial as an example - just letting the AI do it's thing as the US will get you bogged down at around Beitfeld Crossroads, and give a straight-up fight against Peiper. You will 'win' but it might be marginal.

With good planning and task allocations you can bypass & get into St Vith within 24 hours, and have destroyed Peiper (completely = early scenario end) by the night of D4/D5. Friendly casualties lower than in "AI only" also.

To me, that seems like a wide enough margin of command performance to totally refute the 'AI runs it all' nonsense. I play with painfully realistic or realistic delays only.
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johndoesecond
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RE: Tactical assistance please

Post by johndoesecond »

flibby, I'd warmly suggest you to try to play BftB demo instead of HTTR.

Maybe the differences are not so visible at the level of UI (although some are not at all irrelevant), but under the hood the simulation model is significantly richer and more evolved.

Also, yes, the tutorial videos are really the best starting point for understanding the game mechanics and some basic tactics.

Lieste
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RE: Tactical assistance please

Post by Lieste »

Also, for comparison, a similar area of the BftB Bastogne map, showing the difference in relief etc.

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wodin
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RE: Tactical assistance please

Post by wodin »

I'm not saying that Leiste...all I'm saying is if you don't have to micro manage especially when it involves Corps. I've been playing since RDOA. Though I'm not brilliant I'm reasonably competent and take umbridge that I'm not playing the game "properly".

I usually give orders at battalion level, in larger scenarios sometimes at brigade and when needed at coy.

It's a very good way to learn how the AI operates giving orders is on the tutorails scenario give an attack order at regiment level and wathc what it does, don't give an FUP though let the AI decide...thats when I've seen the AI attack from different sides.

Oh an another point you only need 100 points so alot of the time you don't need all the Obj's.
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flibby
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RE: Tactical assistance please

Post by flibby »

okay i've got the demo and will be playing with it tonight.

Perhaps someone could answer this however;

Contrasting the AARs i've seen from BftB and the Armchair General tactical 101s - there seems to be very little flanking or manouvering - the game seems more focused on making sure you don't set up in the open, then have frontal assaults covered by artillery at objectives - is that a fair assessment? Just seems to be very little wide swings with formations to get to the flank/rear of an enemy formation.
Lieste
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RE: Tactical assistance please

Post by Lieste »

Steady on Wodin, it was a reply to Joe D, that "... it won't matter because your forces will run off of "otto" anyway."

As for the question about frontal engagements and the AAR...

Well often the battles depicted are break-in battles - assaulting across a river-line, driving to take a town which is obviously the main 'target' of any offensive in sector etc...

Now, this leaves relatively little scope for an 'initially' surprising attack. I can assure you though that within each 'frontal' attack to open up the path for follow-on troops, there is plenty of scope and reward for isolating the battlespace, and strong rewards for isolating units that are being forced to retreat. Manoeuvre alone will only do so much (and in the worst case will just destroy your forces piecemeal), but using manoeuvre to dislocate, to isolate and destroy the enemy once he is locally defeated and to prevent his digging in again ahead of the spearheads - all achievable and giving appropriate rewards... but your skill in assessing the situation, applying timings to various moves, retaining unit efficiency and effectiveness over days of intensive movement and combat will be important in whether it 'works' or just dissolves into a mess of exhausted shells.

Try the tutorial, using both 'slugging it out' and 'manoeuvre' focussed orientations, and see what does and doesn't work. Do use the higher two command delays, and make a "decent plan" and let it play out to conclusion, rather than endlessly fiddling with the penalties associated with regrouping under fire. This in turn forces the 'current plan' to be fairly simple/ or 'short' in terms of distance covered (especially where contact is expected), two units acting together might seize the approach to a village, then the village itself, rather than both attempting to clear the village in one bound.
Ultimately it is possible to completely destroy the enemy forces when played as US using standard supply & reinforcement and painfully realistic delays, as I've accomplished this on about half a dozen play-throughs. This is never a "given" though, even with lots of experience, as sometimes the AI manages to place spanners in the works - usually small forces interfering with (but not stopping) supply. Occasionally, a late start by US troops due to fire, stubborn defences or just a traffic jam at the bridge allows the AI to seriously interfere with things... enough to let Peiper into position before all US objectives are met... and then you have to dislodge dug-in Panthers or Tiger IIs, rather than have them come to you [:-]
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flibby
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RE: Tactical assistance please

Post by flibby »

Okay well I have the demo now and I've been having a play, however I still have a few questions (apologies for the tediousness!)

I have watched the tutorial and understand the system more now I have to say. One thing that still confuses me though is how to conduct a breakthrough ( on a flank or anywhere else). My view is that if I conduct an assault against an enemy position with infantry, making sure that I have direct fire support from an advantageous terrain spot if possible, and artillery support, along with a fup close to the enemy an under cover, then I can proceed to use an armoured bbde to (with a move Order??) to a point through the breach....would this be correct?

Finally: what is the position vis a vis movement to contact? Is it best to scout with a single company, or to attack as planned based on supposition of where the enemy is?


Thanks again!
Lieste
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RE: Tactical assistance please

Post by Lieste »

For the breakthrough: There are advantages to having definitively scouted the enemy positions - enhanced artillery effectiveness, possibly reduced vulnerability to enemy fires (if he has been sloppy). OTOH, it takes a lot of time to go beyond templating based on likely enemy forces and terrain, and the delay may not be tolerable. Plus the arrival and snooping around of a company will 'give the game away' to some extent - unlikely he'll capitalise on it, but a risk - attacking out of the brown gives the possibility of temporary surprise.

I assume that a typical 'local strongpoint' is a Bn or thereabouts, and he will have at least some indirect fire:
This leads me to the following conclusions:

I must move/attack with at least a Bn, even if I only intend a holding action - less than that and I risk casualties in the open with little chance of success - I might break this rule with really high quality troops, or to expand a defensive perimeter, but I really don't like moving units without immediate support.
To successfully assault I prefer 2-3 Bn of troops - but not all these must be continuously moving - sometimes 1 or 2 Bn in the assault group with the balance in SBF positions give more firepower (and because the defensive quality of the SBF troops is higher) reduced casualties overall - the combination is a more successful attack with fewer casualties.
My artillery fires to cause disruption during the earliest phases of an attack, even if I'm short of ammunition and not generally firing - it also fires on reserves or defenders who are retreat/routing because this gives higher casualties per round. The continuing support of a local attack is best shot in with the organic mortars though, as they can fire into tighter spots, and are more than adequate to maximise suppression.
Neutralising enemy artillery goes a long way to easy victories - you can do this by getting inside their min-range bombardment boundary, by firing at them with direct/indirect/air assets. His artillery is a primary reason that my assault forces are only part of the attack group - assaulting with an entire regiment into a narrow killing zone is generally a bad idea.

The break-in battle is I'm afraid a slug-fest - and here it might be best to use your heavy hitters, en-mass to secure a rapid breakthrough - even if that means they must regroup and the immediate exploitation is by light infantry, you may gain 12-24 hours or more, and only lose 2-3... The risk is that you fail, and can't use your good troops for a day or so while they recover...
Once you are through his screen though, you have much more potential for mayhem and manoeuvre and far more choices...

St Vith before dawn of D2 is quite possible
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flibby
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RE: Tactical assistance please

Post by flibby »

Well as promised i have been playing the Demo

You can see the flank attack idea that i had for St Vith and it seems to have worked, some night fighting going on but coming round to attack from the east whilst holding at the front seems to have worked - is this how to flank properly in the game?

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Lieste
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RE: Tactical assistance please

Post by Lieste »

Seems to be working, but you had a fairly low tempo of operations.

The same thing 2 days earlier is good progress - [:D]
I suspect a slow crossing of the River, and still being tied up at Lommersweiler when 12VGD (HQ & Base) and II/48 arrive as reinforcements.

But what you have is much better than trying to plough along the MSR with Peiper on your flank and elements of 12 VGD on your other flank and in the city ahead... Now can you beat II/48 into St Vith [:D]


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