Compensating balance issues with modding?
Moderators: Joel Billings, elmo3, Sabre21
Compensating balance issues with modding?
If all the time balance issues were discussed went into making ... frex an Axis dream mod/scen, how far such an enterprise could have grown?
This is a serious question: I haven’t yet looked into the modding possibilities.
Given that forumites represent all the different nationalities with quite different reading lists, perceptions & views, arguably it won’t be easy to forge an overall consensus.
Perhaps modding could be a solution until GG War in Europe complete is available, giving the Axis player all those juicy choices?
Regards
This is a serious question: I haven’t yet looked into the modding possibilities.
Given that forumites represent all the different nationalities with quite different reading lists, perceptions & views, arguably it won’t be easy to forge an overall consensus.
Perhaps modding could be a solution until GG War in Europe complete is available, giving the Axis player all those juicy choices?
Regards
wosung
RE: Compensating balance issues with modding?
The editor is powerful enough to create a War in the East that meets anyone's interpretation of the war and/or desires to balance the game in one direction or another...if you have the time.ORIGINAL: wosung
Perhaps modding could be a solution until GG War in Europe complete is available, giving the Axis player all those juicy choices?
RE: Compensating balance issues with modding?
Thank you!
That's good news. It basically means those who often sound very discontent with balance issues, from tank numbers, Reinforcements to elite status could *fix* those issues.
Question to those guys: Why don't you do so?
Regards
That's good news. It basically means those who often sound very discontent with balance issues, from tank numbers, Reinforcements to elite status could *fix* those issues.
Question to those guys: Why don't you do so?
Regards
wosung
- Richard III
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RE: Compensating balance issues with modding?
ORIGINAL: wosung
That's good news. It basically means those who often sound very discontent with balance issues, from tank numbers, Reinforcements to elite status could *fix* those issues.
Question to those guys: Why don't you do so?
Regards
The problems are:
A. How user friendly is the editor (big question) , and can thoses values even be altered ? Grigsby likes to hardcode lots of things in his stuff.
B. If yes, a great amount of play test time is needed to "tune" the changed values, so not to unbalance the Game even more.
The big issue for those of us who modded the values in WITP is that every time a new patch came out, do to the way the game was coded, one had to go in and totaly re-do the mod [X(] on the patched Game. A early "realism" mod I did for the WITP `41 GC took over 48+ hours, plus other guys testing time.
If WITE has that same patch issue, no one in the know is likley to want to invest huge time in modding a game still being patched.
“History would be a wonderful thing – if it were only true.”
¯ Leo Tolstoy
¯ Leo Tolstoy
- BletchleyGeek
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RE: Compensating balance issues with modding?
While Richard III a. and b. concerns are valid and important, I would like to attract attention to the Lost Victories scenario, made by Red Lancer. That scenario is an alternate 1943-45 GC, where the hindsight and wisdom shown in German generals memoirs becomes fact and not fancy.
He kept a thread discussing the rationale for the changes, benefitting the Axis, he was making to production. This required some research and thought. He wanted to remove the inefficiencies of the crazy non-standardized German AFV production system, but wasn't into just adding +1000 Panther per turn to production, but rather explore what could have been feasible if the Germans could have committed to a few key designs.
That thread should be the blueprint for exploring what if scenarios.
He kept a thread discussing the rationale for the changes, benefitting the Axis, he was making to production. This required some research and thought. He wanted to remove the inefficiencies of the crazy non-standardized German AFV production system, but wasn't into just adding +1000 Panther per turn to production, but rather explore what could have been feasible if the Germans could have committed to a few key designs.
That thread should be the blueprint for exploring what if scenarios.
RE: Compensating balance issues with modding?
It depends on what you are trying to do. Shortly after the game was released someone asked me to look at several extracts from David Glantz' books. The basic question was, "Is the Soviet initial 800,000 manpower pool double counting the 800,000-man call-up of May(?) 1941...weren't these guys, or most of them--already with their units..?" Maybe yes, maybe no...ORIGINAL: Richard III
How user friendly is the editor (big question) , and can thoses values even be altered ? Grigsby likes to hardcode lots of things in his stuff.
If you believe this assertion to be true, then you could use the editor to change the initial manpower pool number for the Soviets to help sort out the truth:
-Go to the editor and open the 1941-45 Campaign scenario.
-Select the ground elements tab and scroll to line 1482.
-Click on Soviet Number in Pool. Enter '0'
-Select the Main tab/Scenario Name and change the name to 1941-45 Campaign Minus (or whatever)
-Set Lock Generic Data as YES
-Save the scenario; mod complete
-Load and Play
Yep.ORIGINAL: Richard III B.
If yes, a great amount of play test time is needed to "tune" the changed values, so not to unbalance the Game even more.
Take five minutes and you have the mod I described above. I would rate it as a substantive change to game play with low vulnerability to patches. Like you, I would avoid a massive bottom to top re-do of all the data files because I don't have the time for it. Short of changing the combat model equations (hardcoded), you can use the editor to change the bulk of the data that feeds them.ORIGINAL: Richard III B.
If WITE has that same patch issue, no one in the know is likley to want to invest huge time in modding a game still being patched.
- BletchleyGeek
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RE: Compensating balance issues with modding?
ORIGINAL: bcgames
-Go to the editor and open the 1941-45 Campaign scenario.
-Select the ground elements tab and scroll to line 1482.
-Click on Soviet Number in Pool. Enter '0'
-Select the Main tab/Scenario Name and change the name to 1941-45 Campaign Minus (or whatever)
-Set Lock Generic Data as YES
-Save the scenario; mod complete
-Load and Play
So now Generic Data changes only affect to one single scenario?
RE: Compensating balance issues with modding?
Generic Data changes that are made inside a scenario file and have the Lock Generic Data function set to YES will only affect that single scenario. If you do not set the Lock Generic Data function to YES then you will lose any changes you made to generic data in that single scenario.ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
ORIGINAL: bcgames
-Set Lock Generic Data as YES
So now Generic Data changes only affect to one single scenario?
- BletchleyGeek
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- Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:01 pm
- Location: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
RE: Compensating balance issues with modding?
ORIGINAL: bcgames
Generic Data changes that are made inside a scenario file and have the Lock Generic Data function set to YES will only affect that single scenario. If you do not set the Lock Generic Data function to YES then you will lose any changes you made to generic data in that single scenario.ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
ORIGINAL: bcgames
-Set Lock Generic Data as YES
So now Generic Data changes only affect to one single scenario?
Thank you bcgames [:)]. I was very confused about this.
- Richard III
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RE: Compensating balance issues with modding?
ORIGINAL: bcgames
-Set Lock Generic Data as YES
So now Generic Data changes only affect to one single scenario?
[/quote]
Generic Data changes that are made inside a scenario file and have the Lock Generic Data function set to YES will only affect that single scenario. If you do not set the Lock Generic Data function to YES then you will lose any changes you made to generic data in that single scenario.
[/quote]
That`s very good news for modding ( if you have too much time [:D] ) just the `41 GC and saving as a "modded" scenario, still keeping the stock one.
It would still be good to know if patchs would require re-working the job, but it looks like the 2X3 Devs have walked away from WITE. ..... Reading the Editor notes I see that GG`s "Steel Panthers" was the source for a lot of the data, as well as the combat routines and supply functions I suspect,. If that`s true then itis going to be tough to get WITP detail & balanc[:(]e into the Game......
R.
I
“History would be a wonderful thing – if it were only true.”
¯ Leo Tolstoy
¯ Leo Tolstoy
- Joel Billings
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RE: Compensating balance issues with modding?
I don't know how you can say the devs have walked away from WitE. We still keep releasing patches. We're working on an improved editor manual so more people can understand how to mod the game and/or create scenarios. Yes, we're working on War in the West and laying the groundwork for a future WitE 2.0 and War in Europe, and many of the more radical (risky) changes will be going into that first and may not appear in WitE until 2.0, but that doesn't mean we've walked away. The relatively recent change allowing for generic data to be locked was done to help the modder community.
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
-- Soren Kierkegaard
- Richard III
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RE: Compensating balance issues with modding?
J.
I`ve supported 2x3 since WITP Ver 1.0, I`m a real fan of your work, and I put my $$$ where my mouth is...... I spent countless hours modding both WITP and Uncommon Valor and making those available. That buys me nothing since I did it out of love of those Games.
I know your still interested in the Game, and it`s still to a degree a work in progress, but it`s more then just fixs ya know.
It`s just some questions that affect play can`t seem to be answered by the " community" testers. There are whole parts of the Game it seems no one understands, the Hvy vs Arn Indust.. rail out function for one. The unrealist ( IMO ) exploits of both sides for another, are they gunna be in or out with the offical patch ?
No one I know wants to start a GC until some idea is made public.
I look forward to WitW, and the WaW system and your using the old HPS business model of backward compatable fixs and enhancements to older games is a great idea since it will give sales legs to your older games and is buyer supportive.
Thing is, I`m very interested in doing a full GC `41 mod but I can`t seem to get a clear answer if future patches will require re-doing the mods like WITP.
Thanks & With Respect.
Rich.
I`ve supported 2x3 since WITP Ver 1.0, I`m a real fan of your work, and I put my $$$ where my mouth is...... I spent countless hours modding both WITP and Uncommon Valor and making those available. That buys me nothing since I did it out of love of those Games.
I know your still interested in the Game, and it`s still to a degree a work in progress, but it`s more then just fixs ya know.
It`s just some questions that affect play can`t seem to be answered by the " community" testers. There are whole parts of the Game it seems no one understands, the Hvy vs Arn Indust.. rail out function for one. The unrealist ( IMO ) exploits of both sides for another, are they gunna be in or out with the offical patch ?
No one I know wants to start a GC until some idea is made public.
I look forward to WitW, and the WaW system and your using the old HPS business model of backward compatable fixs and enhancements to older games is a great idea since it will give sales legs to your older games and is buyer supportive.
Thing is, I`m very interested in doing a full GC `41 mod but I can`t seem to get a clear answer if future patches will require re-doing the mods like WITP.
Thanks & With Respect.
Rich.
ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
I don't know how you can say the devs have walked away from WitE. We still keep releasing patches. We're working on an improved editor manual so more people can understand how to mod the game and/or create scenarios. Yes, we're working on War in the West and laying the groundwork for a future WitE 2.0 and War in Europe, and many of the more radical (risky) changes will be going into that first and may not appear in WitE until 2.0, but that doesn't mean we've walked away. The relatively recent change allowing for generic data to be locked was done to help the modder community.
“History would be a wonderful thing – if it were only true.”
¯ Leo Tolstoy
¯ Leo Tolstoy
- Joel Billings
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- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Santa Rosa, CA
- Contact:
RE: Compensating balance issues with modding?
I appreciate your support. We aren't currently working on anything to alter the Lvov pocket dynamics or the Hvy vs Armaments issue as you call it. Right now we're still waiting to see what the balance looks like in 42 based on all the 1.05 changes. So far things seem to be better in 1.05, but it takes time for games to get to 42. I'm all for players creating house rules if they feel that certain items are not working out as they would like to see them. I would not hold off playing a GC as even if we did make changes, it would be months before we saw the impact of these changes, and things could get worse before they got better. We will continue to make improvements when we feel there is a need for them and when we feel we have constructive changes that will make the game better and not overly risk making it worse.
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
-- Soren Kierkegaard
- BletchleyGeek
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RE: Compensating balance issues with modding?
ORIGINAL: Richard III
Thing is, I`m very interested in doing a full GC `41 mod but I can`t seem to get a clear answer if future patches will require re-doing the mods like WITP.
Fortunately, most of the data can be exported to CSV and kept away from destructive changes in the WitE DB schema. If you have the data, formatting it for a different schema might be difficult, but doable.
If you're really interested about a full GC '41 mod, let's talk. I've got ideas for both the Axis and the Soviets.
- Richard III
- Posts: 713
- Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:16 pm
RE: Compensating balance issues with modding?
PM sent.
ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
ORIGINAL: Richard III
Thing is, I`m very interested in doing a full GC `41 mod but I can`t seem to get a clear answer if future patches will require re-doing the mods like WITP.
Fortunately, most of the data can be exported to CSV and kept away from destructive changes in the WitE DB schema. If you have the data, formatting it for a different schema might be difficult, but doable.
If you're really interested about a full GC '41 mod, let's talk. I've got ideas for both the Axis and the Soviets.
“History would be a wonderful thing – if it were only true.”
¯ Leo Tolstoy
¯ Leo Tolstoy