Tokyo Rose was a Hussy! Chez (J) vs. Canoe (A)

[princep01]

T'was a hell of a victory by the LYBs way, way up north. CR, I have to chime in on the side of those that think the presence of the BB had a very big effect (negative) on the outcome. As you can see from the battle report, in the first battle, the Japanese did NOT achieve surpise, but DID get a tactical advantage by crossing the T. I THINK this is what led to 5 torp hits on Penn and it was LIKELY caused by the difference in TF speed capability. That is WHY the LYBs were able to cross the T. It could be as someelse suggested, superior leadersip gave them that advantage, but I suspect the speed thing that Nemo alerted us to earlier was the culprit.

[witpqs]

Wow - the South Pacific in this game has moved near to the Arctic! Another big factor early on IMO is crew experience. The IJN has it in spades compared to the USN, and they rock even louder at night.

[Canoerebel]

Okay, I have put the defeat in the rear window. I'm am smiling (except when I think about losing a BB, two DD, and ten xAK...) I can move on. I have configured a nice TF with CA Quincy, CL Phoenix, nine DDs, and a DMS to take its place.

But what's really got me puzzled is the lack of supplies going ashore. Para is a level two port. I have xAKs amphibious loaded with supply. Three of those are small (3.2k) ships docked; the rest are undocked and throwing crates overboard into the surf. But, dang, after two full days just 3.4k supply has come ashore. Honestly, I would have expected 20k by now.

[witpqs]

Unloading from the manual:

6.3.3.3 TASK FORCE UNLOADING

TF Unloading is governed by the TF type and is put into two categories: Normal Unloading and
Assault Unloading.

6.3.3.3.1 NORMAL UNLOADING

Normal Unloading is governed by exactly the same rates, as a function of Port Size, as Loading;
both for individual Ship Rates and for the Daily Port Rate. A TF will Unload using the same rate
calculations used for loading, modified by the presence of Naval Support and Port Damage,
as described above.

1. Port Load Adjustments: Naval Support and Damage both
affect a Port’s native ability to unload a Task Force.

2. Port Rate Limitations: The Daily Port Rate applies to Loading and
Unloading together. If a Loading TF uses 70% of the Daily Port
Rate, then only 30% remains available for Unloading.

3. Port Dock Limitations: The Largest Ship in Port and the Total Tonnage
Docked limitations apply to Loading and Unloading together.

4. TF Docked/unloaded. All TFs can unload when not docked,
amphibious TF types at a more advantageous rate.

6.3.3.3.2 AMPHIBIOUS UNLOADING

The Amphibious Unload Rate bonus applies only to ships in an Amphibious TF. Amphibious
Unload rates are determined by ship type (i.e., beaching craft, amphibious ship types,
or ordinary transport/cargo ship types). There are no Port-derived cargo handling limits.
Amphibious Unload only applies to Troops and Cargo (equipment and supply). Amphibious
Unload does not apply to Fuel, Oil or Resources. Note that there is also an “initial operations”
bonus for the Japanese during the first 4 months of the war.

Amphibious Unload may be used in two situations: an assault unloads over the beach, and
amphibious unload in a small friendly port. Amphibious Unload Rate bonuses differ for the two
situations.


6.3.3.3.2.1 OVER THE BEACH

This is for assault unloading over the beach.

» Beaching Craft. Beaching craft unload completely in one turn.

» Attack Amphibious Ships. (APA/AKA plus LSD, LSV and British equivalents)
in Amphibious TFs, unload at a Rate of 3000 points per ship, per turn.
128

» Regular Transport Ships. (Commissioned Naval AP/AK) in Amphibious
TFs, unload at a Rate of 600 points per ship per turn.

» Merchant Ships. (xAP/xAK) in Amphibious TFs, unload
at a Rate of 250 points per ship per turn.

» Special Japanese early war bonus of 1200 for all AP/AK and xAP/xAK types.

6.3.3.3.2.2 FRIENDLY PORT

For Amphibious docked at and unloading in a friendly port of Size 4 or less, the unload rate is
slightly different for Troops and Cargo.

» Beaching Craft. Troops unload at a Rate of 1000 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 750 points per ship per turn.

» Attack Amphibs. Troops unload at a Rate of 1000 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 750 points per ship per turn.

» Regular Amphibs. Troops unload at a Rate of 300 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 300 points per ship per turn.

» Merchant Ships. Troops unload at a Rate of 125 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 125 points per ship per turn.

Amphibious TFs not docked at a friendly port unload at a different rate, depending on port
size, amount of free dock space, and the types of ships in the TFs. Amphibious ship types, with
attached landing craft, will unload faster than non-amphibious ships.

CR, you said that you have xAKs in an amphibious TF, right? My guess based on how many are there versus the port size is that most will be unloading at the 'over the beach in a friendly port' rate. The manual uses "turn" here when it actually means "phase" (confirmed many times), of which there are 2 per turn. So your xAKs could be expected to each unload 250 supply per day, provided they don't get interrupted by combat or whatever.

[Canoerebel]

Thanks, witpqs. That answers the question. Most of my xAKs are indeed unloading at that low rate of 250 points per day, and today's naval battle unduobtedly soaked off alot of operation points. So the Allied supply craft have only had one uninterrupted day to unload. Makes sense and it's very realistic, even if I wish I could kick crates on deck into the water.

[wpurdom]

Okay, I have put the defeat in the rear window. I'm am smiling (except when I think about losing a BB, two DD, and ten xAK...) I can move on. I have configured a nice TF with CA Quincy, CL Phoenix, nine DDs, and a DMS to take its place.

If you're still trying to protect unloading merchant ships, wouldn't you do better with an 8-ship SAG and a 4-ship SAG that the attacking force would have to get through to reach the merchies?

[Canoerebel]

That's probably a good idea. If I can spare four DDs, I set up a 4-DD TF to compliment the CA TF.

On a separate note, it seems that the slow American (and RN R-Class?) BBs aren't good for the kind of service I put them to. They may be best served as "torpedo magnets" in carrier TFs, in amphibious TFs (to soak up shore guns), and in bombardment TFs that aren't likely to encounter enemy combat ship opposition. Using them to guard ports (as I've done at Oosthaven and at Paramushiro) is a good way to get them sunk.

[Cribtop]

Faster TF + night + enough moon but not too much + no radar yet = Long Lance nightmare.

In daytime the Lances launch from too far out and always miss, but in the circumstances of this battle they are deadly. I do think having the Pennsylvania hurt as outlined by princep.

Overall, painful, but hardly fatal. Still, the slow unloading times are a millstone around Paramushiro's neck. You might be better off running in a series of kamikaze xAKLs. Or, cover the force with fast CLs plus a few PT TFs to tangle with IJN DDs. The real question is whether re-supply difficulties make Para untenable as a base (or at least untenable for the amount of naval force you are willing to commit).

[Canoerebel]

Cribtop, good comments.

Because of the peculiar circumstances in this game, I do think it's worthwhile to expend consdierable effort to save Paramushiro. Here's my thinking:

1) Para's value to the Allies and threat to Japan is obvious to experienced players, so I'll take that as a given and won't discuss it. Just accept that it is an enormously important base.

2) Winter arrives in less than three months. If Japan doesn't invade before November 1, the Allies will have four months to reinforce and build without threat of enemy counterattack. By March 1, 1943, Para would be a big, strong base from which Allied 4EB can strike IJ Home Island industry on Sikhalin Island and Hokkaido.

3) Japanese capital ships have become rare commodities. Steve currently has most or all of his BBs and CAs employed in the Pacific and DEI (except, I think, for those in Japanese shipyards for repairs). Lack of capital ships means Steve can no longer effectively bombard Para. This will make it harder for him to suppress supplies and base building efforts.

4) If he does commit capital ships up here, it's as good a place as any to attrit them even further.

5) Para has a level three airfield. Allied LBA is a threat and a problem for Steve. I think he will continue to commit his airforce in offensive missions. The optimal use of the Allied airforce is in defensive missions, so I like this arrangement.

6) Any Japanese assets diverted to NoPac stretches Steve that much further. Stretching an already stretched and depleted enemy is a good thing.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

2) Winter arrives in less than three months. If Japan doesn't invade before November 1, the Allies will have four months to reinforce and build without threat of enemy counterattack.

I wonder how many readers of this thread would counter-attack when ready, regardless of winter? I would.

[Canoerebel]

An invasion against a prepared position in the Arctic during winter conditions is literally impossible. No matter how strong your troops, no matter how much supply you bring, no matter how good you pre-invasion bombardment, no matter the quality of your ships, your troops will suffer something like 90% to 95% disruption and be wiped out the next turn.

With 500 AV at Para, the Allies can withstand any possible counterinvasion that Japan could bring during winter.

[Cribtop]

I tend to agree with your analysis, CR. Points 1 and 2 are strong arguments in favor of sticking it out.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

An invasion against a prepared position in the Arctic during winter conditions is literally impossible. No matter how strong your troops, no matter how much supply you bring, no matter how good you pre-invasion bombardment, no matter the quality of your ships, your troops will suffer something like 90% to 95% disruption and be wiped out the next turn.

With 500 AV at Para, the Allies can withstand any possible counterinvasion that Japan could bring during winter.

I haven't tried or seen it yet, so I guess I would've gotten slaughtered that first time!

[Andav]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I haven't tried or seen it yet, so I guess I would've gotten slaughtered that first time!

If we had only gone after Nome! (This is a running joke in our 2x2 PBEM. Sorry but I just could not resist.)

Walter

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Andav

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I haven't tried or seen it yet, so I guess I would've gotten slaughtered that first time!

If we had only gone after Nome! (This is a running joke in our 2x2 PBEM. Sorry but I just could not resist.)

Walter

Too late now, it's January!

[Canoerebel]

The Allied player can occasionally make use of Nome. I have done so with both aircraft and ships. The occasions are rare and under conditions that may be present in only the occasional game, but making use of Nome gives you a warm feeling all over. [;)]

[obvert]

An invasion against a prepared position in the Arctic during winter conditions is literally impossible. No matter how strong your troops, no matter how much supply you bring, no matter how good you pre-invasion bombardment, no matter the quality of your ships, your troops will suffer something like 90% to 95% disruption and be wiped out the next turn.

I tried to take Paramushiro in winter with about 400 AV of Allied infantry against just the fort playing the AI. I sat for a month trying to reinforce enough to win that battle. No way he'll take out 500AV there in winter.

[JeffroK]

Nothing is impossible, plus he could clear out the island chain up to Para and "besiege" it.
 
Self sustaining PoW camp in the Arctic.
 
I like comment 6.
 
IMHO you can afford to have multiple fronts, its a lot harder for the empire to counter each  (Got any plans for Marcus Is?)
 
Given Paras slow unloading, is it worth splitting up your Tf and have 1-2 ship TF's rotate through, maybe the target of a TF in port was too good to pass up.

[desicat]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Cribtop, good comments.

Because of the peculiar circumstances in this game, I do think it's worthwhile to expend consdierable effort to save Paramushiro. Here's my thinking:

1) Para's value to the Allies and threat to Japan is obvious to experienced players, so I'll take that as a given and won't discuss it. Just accept that it is an enormously important base.

2) Winter arrives in less than three months. If Japan doesn't invade before November 1, the Allies will have four months to reinforce and build without threat of enemy counterattack. By March 1, 1943, Para would be a big, strong base from which Allied 4EB can strike IJ Home Island industry on Sikhalin Island and Hokkaido.

3) Japanese capital ships have become rare commodities. Steve currently has most or all of his BBs and CAs employed in the Pacific and DEI (except, I think, for those in Japanese shipyards for repairs). Lack of capital ships means Steve can no longer effectively bombard Para. This will make it harder for him to suppress supplies and base building efforts.

4) If he does commit capital ships up here, it's as good a place as any to attrit them even further.

5) Para has a level three airfield. Allied LBA is a threat and a problem for Steve. I think he will continue to commit his airforce in offensive missions. The optimal use of the Allied airforce is in defensive missions, so I like this arrangement.

6) Any Japanese assets diverted to NoPac stretches Steve that much further. Stretching an already stretched and depleted enemy is a good thing.

The items you are listing here are what I was trying to point out in my earlier post. You noted that you were concerned about the two islands' defenses - wouldn't a forward naval picket or presence be the best way to delay him and keep the islands from coming under attack?

Since you plan on reenforcing and fighting I guess we will see.

[DOCUP]

Ouch, sorry about the loss of the Pennsylvania and the others. I lost Force Z somewhat similar. It hurts your pride. Your a southerner now get up off your kiester and march back to the fight. Yes it's a little rough but CR will understand the Southern love.[:D]