OT - P-51 Crash at Reno
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
OT - P-51 Crash at Reno
A modified P-51 air racer crashed at the Reno Air Races this afternoon. It went down near the VIP seating area. Some early reports say over a dozen people are dead. The P-51 was the Galloping Ghost #177. It was recently restored back to flying condition after a crash several years ago.
From the video, it looks like the pilot was trying to climb to altitude, but stalled and went straight in.
I think this is the worst crash ever at the air races.
http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2011/09/16/report-plane-crashes-into-seats-at-reno-air-races/
Bill
From the video, it looks like the pilot was trying to climb to altitude, but stalled and went straight in.
I think this is the worst crash ever at the air races.
http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2011/09/16/report-plane-crashes-into-seats-at-reno-air-races/
Bill
WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer
RE: OT - P-51 Crash at Reno
ORIGINAL: wdolson
A modified P-51 air racer crashed at the Reno Air Races this afternoon. It went down near the VIP seating area. Some early reports say over a dozen people are dead. The P-51 was the Galloping Ghost #177. It was recently restored back to flying condition after a crash several years ago.
From the video, it looks like the pilot was trying to climb to altitude, but stalled and went straight in.
I think this is the worst crash ever at the air races.
http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2011/09/16/report-plane-crashes-into-seats-at-reno-air-races/
Bill
This is a major tragedy for air racing fans. So many people killed and injured not to mention the loss of a fine warbird.
The videos that have been shown aren't very good but there are some very clear still photos of the aircraft taken just before the crash.
The control surfaces are all in the neutral position and the propeller is at a full power blade angle so I'm going to guess something happened to the pilot. It really doesn't appear as though the controls are being manipulated in any way. A pilot with aircraft problems is also quite likely to reduce power unless he couldn't due to a gearbox failure. That doesn't appear to be the case due to the total absence of smoke or fire in the engine area. That's just my opinion. It is still quite possible that something critical broke in the aircraft.
There is one photo that shows the cockpit from the side and the pilot can't be seen. Given that this is a modified P-51, it's possible that the pilot's seat is further back in the fuselage but I wouldn't think that it would be so far back that you couldn't see the pilot if he was in a sitting position. That would make it quite difficult for him to see to the side of the aircraft.
Chez
Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
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VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
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ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
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RE: OT - P-51 Crash at Reno
The pilot was 80 and pulling high gs going around those pylons. I think it's possible that he has an aneurism from the gs and was conscious just long enough to pull up, but passed out just after.
Bill
Bill
WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer
RE: OT - P-51 Crash at Reno
The pilot was 74 and had passed all his physicals, but I suppose he could have been struck by something anyway.
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RE: OT - P-51 Crash at Reno
Hi all,
Tragedy... [:(]
Leo "Apollo11"
Tragedy... [:(]
Leo "Apollo11"
Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!
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RE: OT - P-51 Crash at Reno
German media report, the pilot put out a SOS before crashing.
3 people are killed, about 20 heavily injured.
All the best to all the victims of this accident.
3 people are killed, about 20 heavily injured.
All the best to all the victims of this accident.
If you like what I said love me,if you dislike what I say ignore me!
"Extra Bavaria non est vita! Et sic est vita non est ita!"
"Extra Bavaria non est vita! Et sic est vita non est ita!"
RE: OT - P-51 Crash at Reno
My SO just read a story to me she saw online from someone who was 50 feet from the crash and both he and his brother survived unscathed, but he said he saw a lot of people killed all around him. He had his video up on YouTube, but apparently it was taken down for being too graphic. He estimated 50 people we killed. Don't know how accurate that report is.
Initial reports I saw said 12-15 killed immediately and at least 75 hospitalized. Many of those hospitalized were probably treated for cuts and released, though some are in critical condition.
The pilot did pass his physicals, but there have been cases of pilots dying in the air just after passing a physical. Not all medical conditions can be detected easily. As people age, blood vessels get thinner and more brittle. Subject an older body to several extra gs and the stress could cause blood vessels to rupture. It the vessel is a major one like the aorta, he would be unconscious within seconds.
Though I have heard stories from two sources that he had a trim tab go on him at the wrong moment. One of the racers following him saw something up with his tail before the plane went out of control. At 400 mph having a trim tab go to the max setting without warning would make the plane pretty hard to control.
Bill
Initial reports I saw said 12-15 killed immediately and at least 75 hospitalized. Many of those hospitalized were probably treated for cuts and released, though some are in critical condition.
The pilot did pass his physicals, but there have been cases of pilots dying in the air just after passing a physical. Not all medical conditions can be detected easily. As people age, blood vessels get thinner and more brittle. Subject an older body to several extra gs and the stress could cause blood vessels to rupture. It the vessel is a major one like the aorta, he would be unconscious within seconds.
Though I have heard stories from two sources that he had a trim tab go on him at the wrong moment. One of the racers following him saw something up with his tail before the plane went out of control. At 400 mph having a trim tab go to the max setting without warning would make the plane pretty hard to control.
Bill
WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer
RE: OT - P-51 Crash at Reno
As of 0345 local time, reporting 3 deaths. 56 total transported to local Trauma Center. Several reported critical. Several are still in surgery. Untrained eyes frequently over estimate injuries. Plane impacted well in front of the stands, injuries are apparently all "shrapnel type" injuries. 50' more and it would have been a much different outcome ... expect the preliminary NTSB on this one to be issued within 72 hrs.ORIGINAL: wdolson
My SO just read a story to me she saw online from someone who was 50 feet from the crash and both he and his brother survived unscathed, but he said he saw a lot of people killed all around him. He had his video up on YouTube, but apparently it was taken down for being too graphic. He estimated 50 people we killed. Don't know how accurate that report is.
You'll find it here then:
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/index.aspx
Here's a composite assessment from some high time pilots. This is from 0130 - 0330 discussion local time:
"Yes, it ultimately was an accelerated stall but it resulted AFTER he was thrown off the course by the wake turbulence. (also known by racers as "Bad air") At over 400 mph, wake turbulence is dramatic. There are some pictures coming out now that show the elevator trim tab missing. Also in the same photo, there is no pilot visible. Possible GLoc situation from the high G pullout trying to recover from the wake turbulence. May not have been an accelerated stall if the pilot was passed out. Either way, sad situation."
"Pictures clearly show pilots head/helmet in plain view during race taxi-out. Pictures taken seconds before impact have no visible pilot head/helmet in canopy."
This isn't the NTSB report, but I can just tell you from experience these guys are usually pretty close when they have enough photos to look at, and this incident has a lot of photos.
Pax
RE: OT - P-51 Crash at Reno
The may have just been trying to get attention too. He seemed to indicate that the plane hit the crowd, but it is clearly in front of the crowd.
What happened to the crowd was similar to a car bomb. The plane disintegrated on impact throwing pieces of the airplane in all directions. Fortunately there was no fire. I suspect the racing regulations require nitrogen or CO2 pumped into the fuel tanks to reduce fire risk. The fuel they use is also super high octane that burns much slower than regular avgas.
Bill
What happened to the crowd was similar to a car bomb. The plane disintegrated on impact throwing pieces of the airplane in all directions. Fortunately there was no fire. I suspect the racing regulations require nitrogen or CO2 pumped into the fuel tanks to reduce fire risk. The fuel they use is also super high octane that burns much slower than regular avgas.
Bill
WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer
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RE: OT - P-51 Crash at Reno
ORIGINAL: Terminus
The pilot was 74 and had passed all his physicals, but I suppose he could have been struck by something anyway.
I once had a supervisor at work who was a diabetic, overweight and partially blind in his left eye, as well as being a pilot. He passed his physicals too. None of my co-workers would ever fly with him!
RE: OT - P-51 Crash at Reno
I think you are correct, but I'm not an air racing fan so do not know details.ORIGINAL: wdolson
I suspect the racing regulations require nitrogen or CO2 pumped into the fuel tanks to reduce fire risk. Bill
Pax
RE: OT - P-51 Crash at Reno
It is still quite possible that something critical broke in the aircraft.
Looks like it wasn't a problem with the pilot. One of the photos shows a trim tab on the left elevator missing just before hitting the ground so it would appear that some type of flight on control malfunction may have caused it.
Chez
Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98
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RE: OT - P-51 Crash at Reno
I wouldnt let that pilot fly anyway, hes pretty old and no telling what might happen. Infact it would be better if he had younger experienced pilot to fly and he can get in the back seat. Unfort dont think two people can fit in a P-51 Mustang. They are lucky it wouldnt worst than what happen that day.
RE: OT - P-51 Crash at Reno
The air racers are single seaters, but most P-51Ds currently flying have the rear fuel tank and old radio removed and there is a second seat back there. I rode in that seat once in a P-51 named Man O'War.
Some older pilots really are quite fit and are very safe flying in situations that aren't as critical and stressful as pylon racing. There was a big fight when Bob Hoover had his license pulled when he turned 70. He sued the FAA and won. He may have retired from flying since, he's around 90 now, but there was no reason to arbitrarily lift his license.
Some people age quite well. My father is 91, but you'd think he was around 70. I know people in their 60s who look older. He kept his business going until he was around 85 and only quit because my mother was getting too ditzy to keep the books and he didn't want to confront her about it.
If the P-51 at the air races lost a trim tab, and that was the cause of the crash, it wouldn't matter how old or young the pilot was.
Bill
Some older pilots really are quite fit and are very safe flying in situations that aren't as critical and stressful as pylon racing. There was a big fight when Bob Hoover had his license pulled when he turned 70. He sued the FAA and won. He may have retired from flying since, he's around 90 now, but there was no reason to arbitrarily lift his license.
Some people age quite well. My father is 91, but you'd think he was around 70. I know people in their 60s who look older. He kept his business going until he was around 85 and only quit because my mother was getting too ditzy to keep the books and he didn't want to confront her about it.
If the P-51 at the air races lost a trim tab, and that was the cause of the crash, it wouldn't matter how old or young the pilot was.
Bill
WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer
RE: OT - P-51 Crash at Reno
Hi all,
Nine confirmed dead and nine still in critical condition... [:(]
Leo "Apollo11"
Nine confirmed dead and nine still in critical condition... [:(]
Leo "Apollo11"
Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!
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RE: OT - P-51 Crash at Reno
Well what the odd for a pilot flying over the crowd like that in Air Shows, it would be very slim and wondering if that pilot had some social problems and/or family, government threats. Since our country is not doing well and putting alot of other peoples at risk on jobs, etcs. I hoping im mistaken, but never know what going on in that pilot's head. He maybe great person in the past, but i have seen alot of good people have fallen from grace or even bad person become a good one. After looking at the video, that plane went sky diving completely into the crowd like a Kamikaze. Hope im wrong about this idea.
RE: OT - P-51 Crash at Reno
I'm not sure what you're talking about. The P-51 never flew over the crowd. It was an air race, not an air show. He rounded the last pylon to the left of the crowd and his plane suddenly pitched up, rolled, and dove into the ground 50 feet in front of the nearest seats. The preliminary NTSB report indicates that he most likely lost a trim tab on one of the elevators and the plane went out of control.
About a decade ago another P-51 lost a trim tab during the race and since the plane was on a straight stretch when it happened, the plane just violently pitched straight up pulling 10gs and rendering the pilot unconscious for a few seconds. When he came to he was at 9000 feet and climbing. In this case the plane was banked in a turn when it happened, so the plane went into the ground.
The FAA is very strict about letting planes fly anywhere near the crowd. Back in the 1980s I used to work an air show near Bakersfield, CA. One year we had an F-86 that had just been certified air worthy the day before the air show and a Lockheed test pilot was flying it during the show. (The plane had illegally been flown up from the LA area to Bakersfield in the wee hours of the morning a few weeks before. I ran into the plane stuck in the back of a hanger and I was told officially it had been "trucked in".)
The pilot was supposed to do some fly bys, then land. He radioed the tower he had some extra fuel and wanted to do some extra fly bys. He got permission and proceeded to do several high speed passes right over the heads of the crowd. The FAA was ready to shut down the entire air show and wanted to pull the pilot's license, but the DoD stepped in. That pilot was involved in testing a top secret aircraft and couldn't lose his license. It turned out later he was flight testing the Stealth Fighter.
What he did was dangerous as hell, but it was the 2nd best air show performance I've ever seen. The best one was by Bob Hoover.
That F-86 met a bad end a couple of years later and took its pilot with it. At the same air show, the last year they did it, and the only one I missed, the pilot had a flame out on take off and did the stupid thing, he tried to turn with no power and stalled. The plane cartwheeled down the runway and disintegrated.
There was a freshly plowed field just past the end of the runway, he had enough speed and altitude he could have bellied in there and probably not done severe damage to the plane.
Bill
About a decade ago another P-51 lost a trim tab during the race and since the plane was on a straight stretch when it happened, the plane just violently pitched straight up pulling 10gs and rendering the pilot unconscious for a few seconds. When he came to he was at 9000 feet and climbing. In this case the plane was banked in a turn when it happened, so the plane went into the ground.
The FAA is very strict about letting planes fly anywhere near the crowd. Back in the 1980s I used to work an air show near Bakersfield, CA. One year we had an F-86 that had just been certified air worthy the day before the air show and a Lockheed test pilot was flying it during the show. (The plane had illegally been flown up from the LA area to Bakersfield in the wee hours of the morning a few weeks before. I ran into the plane stuck in the back of a hanger and I was told officially it had been "trucked in".)
The pilot was supposed to do some fly bys, then land. He radioed the tower he had some extra fuel and wanted to do some extra fly bys. He got permission and proceeded to do several high speed passes right over the heads of the crowd. The FAA was ready to shut down the entire air show and wanted to pull the pilot's license, but the DoD stepped in. That pilot was involved in testing a top secret aircraft and couldn't lose his license. It turned out later he was flight testing the Stealth Fighter.
What he did was dangerous as hell, but it was the 2nd best air show performance I've ever seen. The best one was by Bob Hoover.
That F-86 met a bad end a couple of years later and took its pilot with it. At the same air show, the last year they did it, and the only one I missed, the pilot had a flame out on take off and did the stupid thing, he tried to turn with no power and stalled. The plane cartwheeled down the runway and disintegrated.
There was a freshly plowed field just past the end of the runway, he had enough speed and altitude he could have bellied in there and probably not done severe damage to the plane.
Bill
WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer
RE: OT - P-51 Crash at Reno
Seems reckless to try and attibute blame and speculate on what happened while an investigation is going on.
Saddened to hear of the deaths and serious injuries at the air show. Been a horrid summer with the Red Arrow pilot lost as well and reports of yet another plane crashing over there in the States killing the pilot.
Saddened to hear of the deaths and serious injuries at the air show. Been a horrid summer with the Red Arrow pilot lost as well and reports of yet another plane crashing over there in the States killing the pilot.
RE: OT - P-51 Crash at Reno
ORIGINAL: Zebedee
Seems reckless to try and attibute blame and speculate on what happened while an investigation is going on.
Saddened to hear of the deaths and serious injuries at the air show. Been a horrid summer with the Red Arrow pilot lost as well and reports of yet another plane crashing over there in the States killing the pilot.
+1
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