HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics

Share your gameplay tips, secret tactics and fabulous strategies with fellow gamers here.

Moderators: Joel Billings, Sabre21

traemyn
Posts: 135
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:00 pm

HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics

Post by traemyn »

I've read a few times on the forum that you can HQ-Buildup and then later attach tanks and they will get the benefits of the extra supplies therefore have high movement points. Is that the extent of this tactic or is there something else to pull it off?

In relation to that, would it be a similar result (as Axis) to rail back an empty HQ to a railhead and let it accumulate supplies (no HQ-Buildup) and then rail it back to the front and reassign tanks?

User avatar
KenchiSulla
Posts: 2956
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:19 pm
Location: the Netherlands

RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics

Post by KenchiSulla »

ORIGINAL: traemyn

In relation to that, would it be a similar result (as Axis) to rail back an empty HQ to a railhead and let it accumulate supplies (no HQ-Buildup) and then rail it back to the front and reassign tanks?


If you rail it back it was already on a railhead wasn't it? Moving an armoured HQ out of command range for a 2 turns in 1941 summer campaign is in my op. a really bad idea.
AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor
traemyn
Posts: 135
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:00 pm

RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics

Post by traemyn »

If you rail it back it was already on a railhead wasn't it?

True. I guess the next question is if you let an HQ 'fill up' on a railhead, then move (non-rail) it back to the front does it use up enough supplies moving itself that this process would have no benefit?

User avatar
KenchiSulla
Posts: 2956
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:19 pm
Location: the Netherlands

RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics

Post by KenchiSulla »

ORIGINAL: traemyn
If you rail it back it was already on a railhead wasn't it?

True. I guess the next question is if you let an HQ 'fill up' on a railhead, then move (non-rail) it back to the front does it use up enough supplies moving itself that this process would have no benefit?


It might benefit you if you use a "spare" empty HQ unit to accumulate supplies and then reassign units to that (build up) HQ. I am not sure how much it will pull though. Also, moving a really full HQ up will cost you extra strain on the motorpool.

Going out of range with units attached will only hurt you I believe as units will get depleted for not receiving many supplies. Anything you add after that is just making up for lost time.
AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor
User avatar
Peltonx
Posts: 5814
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:24 am
Contact:

RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics

Post by Peltonx »

Hi,

Yes this can be done, but down side his when you do HQ build up with no units attached the unit do not get extra supplys.

The up side is you can use these supplys when you panzers start to out run the rail heads.

Now both these things require advanced planning or yes to cannonfodder they are a total waste of time if your not planning ahead.

Its is best that you HQ build up withen 19 MP's of a railhead.

Many poeple think I HQ build up many times a turn, but the fact is most games I simply HQ build-up once a turn starting on turn 2.

Planning ahead an knowing the mechanics of the supply is key. Many poeple just really have no idea how it works.

There is a limit to how far you can go even planning ahead. Kharkov and Stilino is about the limits of railhead/HQ. The real trick to the hole thing is how fast can you get to the limit.

Remember once your mech units units reach there goals if they are defending/ not fighting they have supplys on hand to fight.

Here is one example of good planning and average resistance in south.

Check out where railhead is located each turn.

Pelton

Image
Attachments
Picture1.jpg
Picture1.jpg (229.86 KiB) Viewed 230 times
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
User avatar
Peltonx
Posts: 5814
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:24 am
Contact:

RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics

Post by Peltonx »

5

Image
Attachments
Picture2.jpg
Picture2.jpg (230.67 KiB) Viewed 226 times
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
User avatar
Peltonx
Posts: 5814
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:24 am
Contact:

RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics

Post by Peltonx »

6

Image
Attachments
Picture3.jpg
Picture3.jpg (222.66 KiB) Viewed 225 times
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
User avatar
Peltonx
Posts: 5814
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:24 am
Contact:

RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics

Post by Peltonx »

Start of turn 7

Image
Attachments
Picture4.jpg
Picture4.jpg (219.56 KiB) Viewed 225 times
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
User avatar
Peltonx
Posts: 5814
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:24 am
Contact:

RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics

Post by Peltonx »

End of turn 7

Image
Attachments
Picture5.jpg
Picture5.jpg (216.67 KiB) Viewed 225 times
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
User avatar
Peltonx
Posts: 5814
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:24 am
Contact:

RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics

Post by Peltonx »

Turn 8

At this point I am at supply limits and have spend all my saved up supplys.

I was forsed to retreat from Stalino area and lost a panzer division, but with 1.05 that would probably be the war because I bagged all the armerment points around the Donets.

I was not able to retake Stalino until turn 13.

I was able to do all that damage with 5 HQ build-ups.

Its not how many you do, but how and when they are chained together.

I use allot of pts attaching units from one HQ to another every turn. If you balance out your mech units on turn one you will have several extra HQ's you can use. You can use any HQ as a fuel dump, even infantry. You can mule supplys to front.

The best way to learn how all this works is playing vs computer. save every turn so you can go back and find best opening and supply systems.

Then play vs yourself so you know as German just what can be done IF anything to stop your advance. If it can be stopped then what opening that gives you on other fronts.

Pelton

Image
Attachments
Picture6.jpg
Picture6.jpg (218 KiB) Viewed 225 times
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
mllange
Posts: 526
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:35 am

RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics

Post by mllange »

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Turn 8
...

I was forsed to retreat from Stalino area and lost a panzer division, but with 1.05 that would probably be the war because I bagged all the armerment points around the Donets.
...

Interesting! So what is the story with armament points in v1.05? Why have they suddenly become the make all end all for victory?
There's a simple answer to every complex question - and it's wrong.
-Umberto Eco
User avatar
Flaviusx
Posts: 7732
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:55 pm
Location: Southern California

RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics

Post by Flaviusx »

Pelton, not gonna lie: this seems pretty over the top to me and a logistical fantasy. It's pretty much laying out a case for scrapping HQ buildups in their present form. Stuff like this simply shouldn't be possible, period. You are bypassing the game's logistical system entirely.



WitE Alpha Tester
User avatar
Michael T
Posts: 4445
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:35 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia.

RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics

Post by Michael T »

There has to be a way for a player to perform a logistical build up. That is prioritise supply to units at the spearheads. If you nuke HQ/BU then you better have something else that allows a supply buildup. Every (good) operational game on this subject has a method to give the Panzers the extra supply they need. I am not saying HQ BU is perfect but its better than nothing. I hear your calls for HQ BU to be scrapped Flaviousx but what are you going to replace it with?

I have stated this elsewhere. It is perfectly reasonable to allow a player to stockpile supply in a few select HQ's/Dumps. That is how real campaigns were run. Some responsibility for Peltons advances must rest with his opponent. The Soviets need to conduct a competent defence. Don't blame the logistics model for inept play. If the Soviets leave the door open don't blame HQ BU if the Germans walk thru it.
marcpennington
Posts: 327
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:07 pm

RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics

Post by marcpennington »

It does seem like rather an exploit to me. A way for a designers to close the loophole might be to alter HQ Buildup so that it only builds up supply in the attached divisions, not in the HQ itself.

But it does raise the issue that I think armored units seem to get a bit too little supply (though that is only a subjective opinion on my part). Perhaps altering the supply system so Panzer corps/armies and Tank Army HQs get a bit more supply than infantry HQs and are a bit more effective when far from a rail-head might do the trick, and also might be a way to model more effectively deep operations doctrines and their change throughout the war (i.e. Soviet Tank armies could get a relatively larger supply bonus as the war goes on.)
User avatar
Michael T
Posts: 4445
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:35 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia.

RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics

Post by Michael T »

I am on the same wavelength. Why not give the units say 200% gas and leave the HQ out of it. Or nuke the BU rule and just add a toggle switch to units like "Priority Supply". With some range limits. And some negative effects on other units that aren't being prioritized.

For example IIRC in Schwerpuncts AGW there is a system of allocating a supply level to each unit. Something like subsistence, defend, normal, attack. You could do that kind of thing with HQ's in WITE and their attached units get the supply levels allocated by the HQ. Limits would be the number of trucks available and the range from railheads.

Whatever, a better system could be worked out. But you can't blame players for trying to maximise their logistics system under the current rules. I do the same thing. Plus I use the Luftwaffe as flying fuel tankers.
User avatar
Flaviusx
Posts: 7732
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:55 pm
Location: Southern California

RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics

Post by Flaviusx »

We could perhaps put a 1 turn debuff on units who have switched HQs to prevent this logistical musical chairs business. They would need a turn to sort out their supply chain rather than instantly being able to jump over and take advantage of a handy HQ.
WitE Alpha Tester
User avatar
Michael T
Posts: 4445
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:35 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia.

RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics

Post by Michael T »

We could perhaps put a 1 turn debuff on units who have switched HQs to prevent this logistical musical chairs business. They would need a turn to sort out their supply chain rather than instantly being able to jump over and take advantage of a handy HQ.

Sorry but if there is fuel available at a dump (read HQ) a player (commander) should be able to give that fuel to whatever unit(s) he desires.
User avatar
Flaviusx
Posts: 7732
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:55 pm
Location: Southern California

RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics

Post by Flaviusx »

Micheal T: do you seriously think it's ok to be able to spam this turn after turn and keep moving the panzers at 50 MPs 5 turns in a row like this?

I mean, c'mon man.

WitE Alpha Tester
User avatar
Michael T
Posts: 4445
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:35 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia.

RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics

Post by Michael T »

It's not normally the same units going forward. More a leep frog thing, for me anyhow. Honestly some responsibility rests with the defender. He needs to deploy his units to slow the enemy down. You have to think how far could these guys go with no resistance in front of them and no pressure on the supply line from the enemy either. I think its perfectly feasible under those conditions given the German is throwing all his gas in to one focused drive.

Its up to the Russian to offer some credible resistance. If they do you won't see this kind of penetration.

I am all for a better method of a supply buildup. But if there is nothing but open space in front of the Panzers and they have fuel…..well watch em go. No matter what supply system you employ.

User avatar
Peltonx
Posts: 5814
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:24 am
Contact:

RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics

Post by Peltonx »

Flaviusx had questions about HQ build up so I am being 100% up front about it just the very same as I was about 1v1=2v1.

I am not like some poeple full of bullst and smoke and mirrors.

Michael T - Katza (HQ build up chains) and others do this all time. Its never the same units that are going 44 to 48 MP's per turn.

You rotate the units, the units infront fight first, then the ones that are HQed up plow ahead. The back-up HQ moves up. The really sad part is in my example I could had done it better.

There are many ways to do this. So some simple fix is never going to do it. If you do the one turn debuff on we just do it 2 turns ahead of time ect ect.

If you remove HQ build up, then the game will need a 100% over haul, because it will be 100% impossible to get more then 12 armerment pts, if the Russian player has any idea hwat he is doing.

I thk the problem is you don't have anyone on the dev team that can think out side the box.

They are surpised when someone simply plays by the rules. I haven't even played the Russian side yet and I am 100% sure their are more then a few rules that can be used to there advantage.

Thats why its called beta.

I been playing games for yrs and every one that goes gold needs allot of tweaks the first yr. Why because closed betas are done in a vaccum, once the general public gets their hands on it all the weakness that the dev team never saw see the light of day quickly.

The shit hits the fan and dev team finds out if the game engine is any good. Can they code the fixes into the base programming or not.

The dev team has done a great job to date. I beleive the game engine is more then good enough and the devs will get it right at some point.

You wanted me to be not hold any punchs and I am not an never do.

I am playing the very same way in our game as I have in all my past games, because we are all beta testing so in the long run WiTe ends up being the best eastern front WW2 game ever and that War in the West is not a disaster when released.

Pelton
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
Post Reply

Return to “The War Room”