Big problem: Frost can't grab the bridge

[DasHoff]

There were many epic battles in market garden, but I think we'd all agree the most famous and epic was Frost's defence of Arnhem bridge. Historically, Frost was able to march down south along the Rhine and grab the northern end of the bridge before the Germans could react, although he wasn't able to get the south side.

In the GC you can't do this, because the Germans start with a good SS unit one move away from the bridge. In an MP game any opponent is just gonna move that unit straight to the bridge, blocking Frost and pretty much ending the chance for an epic recreation of the crux of the campaign right there. This is not even considering you have to take the time to attempt a grab of the other bridge west of Arnhem (Frost of course historically sent a group of guys to grab it whilst he continued his march to Arnhem, but the bridge was blown up in their faces).

Frost should be able to grab the bridge unmolested, so that SS unit should be a few more maps away, or something, and have to counterattack like they did historically. I'm not saying the GC should go exactly like it did historically, but this is a pretty damn important part of the campaign

[emperor peter]

Agreed. The SS KG should arrive later.

[xe5]

Yea, and while theyre at it they should make the Wacht am Rhein GC start 3 days later so the 101st AB is sure to be surrounded at Bastogne because that too was a pretty damn important part of the campaign.

[DasHoff]

i've just finished reading a bridge too far, so i'm keen to at least partially recreate frost's last stand at arnhem in my coming MP campaign. i think we will just make an agreement to let my guys get to the bridge first

I never played Wacht am Rhein; that sucks if you don't get to do bastogne

[Platoon_Michael]

ORIGINAL: xe5

Yea, and while theyre at it they should make the Wacht am Rhein GC start 3 days later so the 101st AB is sure to be surrounded at Bastogne because that too was a pretty damn important part of the campaign.

One could change how/when the 101st gets into Bastogne through the Scenario Editor.
To be perfectly honest with you your much better off changing any GC or Op when playing against the A.I.
Nothing worse than not seeing all or most of the BG's participating.
Best example is the Counter Offensive playing as the Allies.

[DasHoff]

wait, watch am rhein has strategic level now? back when i tried CC4 briefly there was no strat map movement at all

[Platoon_Michael]

Huh?

[Southernland]

opps Hoff's fallen off the wagon again

[Sapa]

Hehe [:D]

[xe5]

@P_M - I was being sarcastic about starting the WaR GC 3 days later. In the grand scheme of Market-Garden it was iconic, but not really important that Frost was surrounded at the north end of the bridge. He certainly didnt "grab the bridge" nor was 2nd Btn "unmolested". In fact, at dusk on the 17th A Coy. watched elements of the 10th SS Recon Btn (Graebner) cross the bridge at dusk on their way south to Nijmegen. Considering the insane risk of LZs that far from the objective, Frost getting as far as he did was mostly luck. The suggestion to start KG Spindler "a few more maps away, or something" ignores Spindler's central role in blocking the rest of 1 Para from even getting to Arnhem.

[DasHoff]

ORIGINAL: xe5

@P_M - I was being sarcastic about starting the WaR GC 3 days later. In the grand scheme of Market-Garden it was iconic, but not really important that Frost was surrounded at the north end of the bridge. He certainly didnt "grab the bridge" nor was 2nd Btn "unmolested". In fact, at dusk on the 17th A Coy. watched elements of the 10th SS Recon Btn (Graebner) cross the bridge at dusk on their way south to Nijmegen. Considering the insane risk of LZs that far from the objective, Frost getting as far as he did was mostly luck. The suggestion to start KG Spindler "a few more maps away, or something" ignores Spindler's central role in blocking the rest of 1 Para from even getting to Arnhem.

i figured you were being sarcastic. but you're wrong; Frost's 'last stand arnhem' was the most exciting part of the entire campaign. and you have absolutely no chance of doing it in a current MP campaign. it makes the campaign not even worth playing. KG Spindler should be able to block the rest of 1 para without impeding frost's taking of the bridge

and frost's 2nd battalion did grab the bridge pretty much unmolested, the north end at least. which is what i was talking about.

[xe5]

While its easy to conflate "exciting" with "important", operationally it made little difference whether 2nd Btn was annihilated and captured at the bridge in Arnhem or some neighborhood in S. Oosterbeek. You can argue that for 4 days Frost prevented the panzers from motoring south but its doubtful Model was going to risk 9th &/or 10th SS in the distinctly armor unfriendly "Island" area between Arnhem and Nijmegen.

A H2H GC is ~500 battles. If being able to recreate Frost's last stand is a deal-breaker, the "Last Stand Arnhem' operation would be a more suitable option.