AFV upgrade paths

[Schmart]

I think the AFV upgrade paths could use some tweaking. I'm into 1943 in an Axis vs AI game and seeing many of my Mot Divs getting PzIVs and Panthers, while some Panzer Divs still have Pz38s and early model PzIIIs on strength! Panthers and PzIVs should be going into Panzer Divs, while the Mot Divs get the left over Pz38s and PzIIIs until the Panzer Divs are fleshed out.

One more reason to get some kind of manual AFV upgrade system in place

[Wild]

I agree, and would also like to see a manual upgrade system.

[Empire101]

Would that be possible, like with the aircraft manual/auto button

If it where possible it would be a great asset to the games management.

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: Schmart

I think the AFV upgrade paths could use some tweaking. I'm into 1943 in an Axis vs AI game and seeing many of my Mot Divs getting PzIVs and Panthers, while some Panzer Divs still have Pz38s and early model PzIIIs on strength! Panthers and PzIVs should be going into Panzer Divs, while the Mot Divs get the left over Pz38s and PzIIIs until the Panzer Divs are fleshed out.

One more reason to get some kind of manual AFV upgrade system in place

This situation isn't an upgrade path issue or a TOE issue. The motorized divisions you are referring to are probably elite SS divisions and Grossdeutschland. They receive the best tanks first. The 1943 regular Army motorized division doesn't even have tanks in its TOE. As for the Panther in particular, this vehicle is not standard to a regular Army panzer division until late 1943 when the 1944 TOE comes into effect. It is "normal" not to see Panthers in panzer divisions until then.

[ComradeP]

Jim, I think he's referring to 42 Motorized divisions, which still have medium tanks in their TOE. They only start changing TOE's in June 1943, so it could be a few more months before the remaining motorized divisions have become PzG divisions, without tanks (returning them to the pool when they switch TOE).

[jaw]

Yes, you are correct there are still tanks in the 1942 Motorized division so if Schmart is referring to pre-June, 1943 then two things could be affecting this issue which I forgot to mention:

1) The way the game system works the smaller the amount of a type of obsolete equipment you have, the more likely it is to be swapped out for newer equipment. Therefore the smaller tank complement of a 1942 Motorizied division is more likely to upgrade (all other things being equal) than the larger tank component of a panzer division;

2) I discovered an error (corrected in the latest data files) I had made in the build limit of the Panther D which had too many of these tanks being produced; this likely created a surplus of Panthers in Schmart's game which then found their way into the 1942 Motorized divisions.

I would recommend anyone playing games started on data files older than June 25 to re-start their games with the most recent files. I apologize for this inconvenience.

[molchomor]

Well I would say - Don't.

Yes don't upgrade as what you will see in '44 is that you will have hundreds of king tigers, tigers, jagdpanthers and hetzers (none of these are classified as medium tanks by the game) just collecting dust in your pool while you panzer divisions will seriously lack medium tanks (Panthers, PzIV). In fact by '44 you only get around ~75 medium tanks per week as Germany, also a couple of hundred of those types that mostly collects dust (~40 jagdpanthers, ~100 hetzers, ~50 jgdpzIV(70),..).

So, to minimize (cannot totally be avoided) the totally unrealistic scenario of your panzer divisions using one or maybe three captured medium tanks as T-34s each in their medium tanks slots, while hundreds of top-notch hero tanks are rusting away in the pool, I would suggest to keep the old data file so you get more German tanks for  these slots.

Never knew that only 4 units used tigers (all but one are smallish SU battalions I believe) and 3 units king tigers (all of those are SU battalions) in dec. '44 in the east, but now I do.

Heck I have more Axis units using captured Valentines, SU-1XX, T34s etc. than I have units using tigers and king tigers. Realism [:D]

edit:

And btw what's up with the slots for flammapnzers and SP-inf, light tankhunters, light tanks tanks etc. ? Those types are not in production after '43 but still the inflexible slots for your units want those types that are all gone by '44 and nothing else, meaning that you can never get most of your "elite" units up to full TOE unless you edit the game files manually. Sigh. Well hopefully my hundreds of jagdpanthers and tigers in the pool make an impression when displayed on parades in Berlin, all year round every tuesday (wednesdays the ~200 king tigers and tigers are on display, fridays it's the 400 hetzers being paraded). Mind you captured inferior models are not paraded, they are being used at the front.

[DTurtle]

Probably the best way to solve that problem would be to allow tank slots to be fulfilled not only by the exact type, but also by better tank types.

So a slot for light tanks would be filled with light tanks, if none were available with medium tanks, and if none of those were available with heavy tanks. Same for medium, etc.

[ComradeP]

molchomor: those are not just gameplay limitations, but historical limitations. The Germans used King Tigers in heavy Panzer battalions, not in regular Panzer divisions. The factory producing them was also thoroughly wrecked by Allied bombers, so we get less than half of the planned production.

Tigers were also not intended to be placed in regular Panzer divisions in historical TOE's.

The Hetzer pool should dry up as soon as the infantry divisions switch TOE's to the TOE that includes the Hetzers.

Jagdpanther (and Panther D) production was much too high due to a typo in the editor.

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: molchomor

Well I would say - Don't.

Yes don't upgrade as what you will see in '44 is that you will have hundreds of king tigers, tigers, jagdpanthers and hetzers (none of these are classified as medium tanks by the game) just collecting dust in your pool while you panzer divisions will seriously lack medium tanks (Panthers, PzIV). In fact by '44 you only get around ~75 medium tanks per week as Germany, also a couple of hundred of those types that mostly collects dust (~40 jagdpanthers, ~100 hetzers, ~50 jgdpzIV(70),..).

So, to minimize (cannot totally be avoided) the totally unrealistic scenario of your panzer divisions using one or maybe three captured medium tanks as T-34s each in their medium tanks slots, while hundreds of top-notch hero tanks are rusting away in the pool, I would suggest to keep the old data file so you get more German tanks for  these slots.

Never knew that only 4 units used tigers (all but one are smallish SU battalions I believe) and 3 units king tigers (all of those are SU battalions) in dec. '44 in the east, but now I do.

Heck I have more Axis units using captured Valentines, SU-1XX, T34s etc. than I have units using tigers and king tigers. Realism [:D]

edit:

And btw what's up with the slots for flammapnzers and SP-inf, light tankhunters, light tanks tanks etc. ? Those types are not in production after '43 but still the inflexible slots for your units want those types that are all gone by '44 and nothing else, meaning that you can never get most of your "elite" units up to full TOE unless you edit the game files manually. Sigh. Well hopefully my hundreds of jagdpanthers and tigers in the pool make an impression when displayed on parades in Berlin, all year round every tuesday (wednesdays the ~200 king tigers and tigers are on display, fridays it's the 400 hetzers being paraded). Mind you captured inferior models are not paraded, they are being used at the front.

In addition to the independent battalions, heavy tanks (Tigers and King Tigers) are used in the elite SS Panzer/Panzergrenadier divisions and GD in 1943 and 1944 (GD to as late as 11/44). Jagdpanthers were one of the vehicles being over produced due to an incorrect build limit. Latest data files will correct the problem of their over abundance. As ComradeP mentioned above Hetzers will eventually be absorbed by the infantry divisions. The Flamm Panzer III was also one of the vehicles being over produced and now corrected. It is organic only to GD and I probably should have taken it out of the TOE in the fall of 1943. I will consider that revision. As for the sIG33s (SP Inf-guns) and Marders, historically these vehicles seem to have suffered comparatively low casualties and soldiered on long after they went out of production. One can argue for or against their inclusion till the end of the War. The same is true of the Panzer IIL (Lynx), you can make a case for leaving it out due to rarity and keeping it in since a 100 almost worthless light tanks are still better than no light tanks. One thing I won't do is put in a TOE equipment a division never had just to reduce some potential surplus of it.

[pat.casey]

Personally, I'd like to see free upgrades for the tank battalions, just like air wings.

Its silly to have a pool full of unused tank chasis while divisions in the field wither away because there are no "medium" tanks to put in them.

Plus, from my game enjoyment standpoint, I'd prefer to have the option to put every tiger tank in the eastern front into two panzer divisions and see what happens as opposed to spreading them out in penny packet heavy tank battalion. No clue if it'd be more useful than the historical approach; I'd enjoy finding out.

[jomni]

ORIGINAL: pat.casey

Plus, from my game enjoyment standpoint, I'd prefer to have the option to put every tiger tank in the eastern front into two panzer divisions and see what happens as opposed to spreading them out in penny packet heavy tank battalion. No clue if it'd be more useful than the historical approach; I'd enjoy finding out.

Historical grognards would consider this as an exploit! This is exactly the case why the game didn't give the option to the players.
But if it were allowed, be prepared loose all your Tigers when your two divisions get surrounded.

[PyleDriver]

I kind of like them in battilions. They can be moved around unseen among units, and hit when needed...Deadly... Who said advance, just smack those Soviet advances in the open field...