The most important thing to fix WitE's playability

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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heliodorus04
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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability

Post by heliodorus04 »

Fair enough Oleg, but does everything have to be absolute in scale?
For example, at certain arbitrary time points, HQ units gain the ability to command more units.
Certain actions cost the Soviet more AP at early times than at later times.

Why couldn't fort-building scale over time, and why couldn't it scale differently for the Soviet than for the German.  For example, someone on staff (I think it was Joel) said that Germans already build forts more quickly than Soviets.

So I'm not sure why you couldn't design something around such an issue. If not forts, I would consider something else.  I still see hex-side facing forts is a rational way to go in terms of realism.
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Taipan61
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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability

Post by Taipan61 »

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: Taipan

Why do the fort size capabilities have to be the same for both sides? Russian level 1 forts defend only one side; German level 1 forts defend on two sides; This scales up as the fort levels increase.

Now this is getting too ridicolous to comment seriously....

Geez, tough crowd.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, and the rational way in which you dismissed the idea.

Why does everything to scale the same on both sides? There has to be a way of breaking down the WWI front line mentality that seems to appear in later games. Nurfing forts is not the answer. That much we agree on. Changing the mechanics of fort development/defence is needed to get rid of this three hex deep front line WWI crap which seems to infest every damn game. Saying there is no a problem with the current fort mechanics is just putting your head in the sand.



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mmarquo
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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability

Post by mmarquo »

"I will still be met by a Kursk-style defense from north to south that I have to batter my way through. And even if I do that and survive to level 4 there is no way to kill the enemy boss..."
 
Why batter through? In terms of VPs you are winning; so let the Soviets batter thorough instead and try to win. My view of the game: damage the Soviets as much as possible in 1941/1942 and penetrate as deep as possible - then stop and defend for the rest of the game. The Axis should win at the gates of Berlin on the last turn of the game.
 
Marquo 
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karonagames
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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability

Post by karonagames »

When I was part of the testing process, I feared that what we are seeing now would come to pass, in that we would have to get over the "Blizzard is broken" hurdle, to then be faced with the "axis can't break through 4 deep level 4 entrenchments in 1942" hurdle (although some axis players clearly can get through the 1942 defensive belts), before we even got anywhere close to the "how do the Axis players stay motivated to play through 1943-1945 without feeling they are totally overwhelmed and nothing they do makes a difference" hurdle. Any Axis player that has got beyond October 1944 in PBEM has my whole-hearted admiration.

Well, it only took 6 months to get over the "Blizzard is broken" hurdle. I am sure that from now on the ability to get over the other hurdles will be exponential, and I therefore look forward to playing a hurdle-free game next week, maybe?

With regard to the OP's original point, IMHO there is no single common denominator that is the root cause of the game's current issues i.e. entrenchments/facings, but rather a combination of factors will have to be adjusted to enable the game to remain fun for both sides for the 220 odd turns of the 1941 campaign, some of the recent test ideas such as "rule 3" look like strong moves in the right direction to achieve better balance.
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Manstein63
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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability

Post by Manstein63 »

What about this for an idea limit the size of fortifications that can be built for example brigade & regiments can only build to a maximum of L2 fortifications if they go into static mode that can increase to L3 if they come out of static mode it drops back to L2. the same could apply for divisions & corps except they could have a fort level of L3 increasing to L4 if they go static & dropping back to L3 if the unit becomes mobile again. if you want to have a level 5 fort you must have a fortification unit in place & the hex must also be occupied by a division / corp in static mode otherwise it remains as a L3 fort untill the fort unit is removed. also it might be an idea to slightly increase the AP cost for fortifications that are not within lets say 2 hexes of a city.
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Tarhunnas
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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability

Post by Tarhunnas »

ORIGINAL: Marquo

"I will still be met by a Kursk-style defense from north to south that I have to batter my way through. And even if I do that and survive to level 4 there is no way to kill the enemy boss..."

Why batter through? In terms of VPs you are winning; so let the Soviets batter thorough instead and try to win. My view of the game: damage the Soviets as much as possible in 1941/1942 and penetrate as deep as possible - then stop and defend for the rest of the game. The Axis should win at the gates of Berlin on the last turn of the game.

Marquo 

I was jokingly putting the game in arcade terms. That does not mean I want to see the Germans regularly battering their way to absolute victory in 1942. What I really wanted to say was the second part of my post:
ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
I do think it is a problem that, given reasonably matched players, even if I do extremely well in 1941 as the German compared to the historical Germans, I am still faced with a situation in 1942 where there is no way I can replicate the advance to Stalingrad.

Since I wrote that I have somewhat embarrassingly broken through the Soviet lines in my 1942 campaign and is now merrily crossing the Don with the panzers in open country, but that is another matter...

Edit: Clarification: The campaign was started in 1941, but it is now in summer 1942.
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Oleg Mastruko
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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability

Post by Oleg Mastruko »

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
Since I wrote that I have somewhat embarrassingly broken through the Soviet lines in my 1942 campaign and is now merrily crossing the Don with the panzers in open country, but that is another matter...

[:D]
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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability

Post by karonagames »

(although some axis players clearly can get through the 1942 defensive belts

QED!
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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability

Post by Tarhunnas »

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
(although some axis players clearly can get through the 1942 defensive belts

QED!

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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability

Post by saintsup »

To put a personal experiment on the table.

I played and I'm playing an experienced wargamer but total WITE PBEM noob (he is a fast learner though ...) in 1.04, upgrading as patches came out.

I made a good 41 campain (more than 4 M SU losses, took Leningrad, Karkhov, ...).

I still was faced with a multi layer, 3+ fort level front at the beginning of fair weather in 42. I could'nt break the front in the point I decided to attack including massing pionners, artillery, best generals, full refited infantery armies and all my 4 refitted panzer armies.

Things I could have done better:
- there was not really a surprise about where I attacked. After careful examination, the rest of the front was almost as strong though (no weak points)
- I didn't attack in the snow turns

For me 41 (including blizzard) feels almost right with equal experienced player but I have the conviction that defensive capabilities of SU is too much in summer 42.

I understand that as I didn't burned out my troops attacking hopelessly, I will probably 'win' the game in 150 turns but I still feel 'cheated' in my fun factor of one more offensive campaign.

I'm not sure about the solutions though ...
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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability

Post by herwin »

Drive on Stalingrad had similar problems, which made it unplayable.

The issue seems to be that the line gets fortified too quickly and easily. Then the Soviets have been given a crowbar to overcome the fortifications on the German side. It doesn't smell like what we know from playing OCS and reading the post-Cold-War histories. (Or in my case from reading the Soviet military literature.) Model the logistics, and you probably will do better.

The German anti-infantry defence relied on a combination of firstly a light infantry screen anchored by MGs to acquire targets for the artillery and block the advance of the Red Army infantry and, secondly, artillery to suppress and kill the Red Army forces once they took cover. The anti-tank defence relied on direct fire AT weapons, and was more important than the infantry or artillery in defining the front covered by a division.

The Red Army attack relied on quantity, which had a quality all of its own.
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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability

Post by Ketza »

Actually the more that I think about after reading some very passionate musings by the players the most important thing is that Matrix continues to improve this amazing game.

I can see myself playing this for a very long time and can hardly wait for the ramblings of players lamenting about how overpowered the allied airforce is in 1944 [8D]
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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability

Post by karonagames »

Good to see you back BigA!

Back lurking, but not playing.....yet.
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molchomor
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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability

Post by molchomor »

I think axis players give up as the replayability is simply too low due to the inflexible nature of the axis side. You see early on how things will turn out and there is not much to do about it, to change the trend once the Soviets get the initiative. Examples: No possibility to adjust production to the current most critical needs. No bonus whatsoever by capturing oil/fuel/resources, so scratch that option too. No possibility to adapt your air strategy to the current situation and actually use your air superiority (e.g. switching from bombing airfields to breaking those armored Soviet spearheads with concentrated tankbuster plane divisions that currently kill nothing wearing a tin foil hat or better). No possibility to help minor allies holding collapsing frontlines by giving them increased exports (e.g. most of my Romanian airgroups have 0 planes and have so for a long time (years), my Finns lack armaments that I have mountains of etc.). Boosting "firebrigade" units in some spots are difficult as they will refuse to use proper and available German equipment (instead craving the one or two captured SU-122s in the pool, while ~300 tigers and king tigers are collecting dust in showrooms in Berlin).

Conclusion: This is a very good historical simulation, and that is what it is.


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Wild
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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability

Post by Wild »

Agreed, and in my opinion that is what it should be. For others mileage may differ.
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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability

Post by kirkgregerson »

ORIGINAL: molchomor

I think axis players give up as the replayability is simply too low due to the inflexible nature of the axis side. You see early on how things will turn out and there is not much to do about it, to change the trend once the Soviets get the initiative. Examples: No possibility to adjust production to the current most critical needs. No bonus whatsoever by capturing oil/fuel/resources, so scratch that option too. No possibility to adapt your air strategy to the current situation and actually use your air superiority (e.g. switching from bombing airfields to breaking those armored Soviet spearheads with concentrated tankbuster plane divisions that currently kill nothing wearing a tin foil hat or better). No possibility to help minor allies holding collapsing frontlines by giving them increased exports (e.g. most of my Romanian airgroups have 0 planes and have so for a long time (years), my Finns lack armaments that I have mountains of etc.). Boosting "firebrigade" units in some spots are difficult as they will refuse to use proper and available German equipment (instead craving the one or two captured SU-122s in the pool, while ~300 tigers and king tigers are collecting dust in showrooms in Berlin).

Conclusion: This is a very good historical simulation, and that is what it is.



Amem!
+1

The part about having Rom air groups with 0 planes(Italians even worse situation) is really annoying the crap out of me. Especially since I have some German air frames in the hundreds for the pool. Is this WAD? If not it's ridiculous and how about patching thse types issues before coming up with some lipstick on the UI. I could give a damm about the new new UI feature for showing HQ lines links on the map (shift Z or something). How about working on some of the issues/bugs that people keep complaining about? I'm just not sure what or why some things with WitE are not getting priority. Very frustrating. I know the devs are reading this, have seen no action recently on the major issues people are demonstrating. I'll just have to hope play testing with testers is why some fixes are taking longer. Which I can understand with a game this complex.
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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability

Post by saygame »


[quote]ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

Wouldn't you need a historical 1941 for a historical 1942 to develop? I don't think the Germans would have been able to launch a second campaign season as successfully as they did if the Soviets didn't lose so many troops in 41 in the first place.

I think Gradenko hit it right smack dab on the head way back in this thread with this two sentence post. [&o]

To expect that one may elimnate the (many and massive) Soviet errors committed alongside accurate rearview mirror historical vision and still expect a historical '42 German offersive carrying to the Caucauus is, to me, ludicrous.

If one desires a '42 German offensive affording close to what actually happened one has to either play the '42 scenario (which has those '41 results factored in inherently) or the game system must "straight jacket" players into committing Soviet errors alongside Soviet limited command and control. Same goes for German strategic blunders and their historical effects as the campaign progressed as well.

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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability

Post by herwin »

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

ORIGINAL: molchomor

I think axis players give up as the replayability is simply too low due to the inflexible nature of the axis side. You see early on how things will turn out and there is not much to do about it, to change the trend once the Soviets get the initiative. Examples: No possibility to adjust production to the current most critical needs. No bonus whatsoever by capturing oil/fuel/resources, so scratch that option too. No possibility to adapt your air strategy to the current situation and actually use your air superiority (e.g. switching from bombing airfields to breaking those armored Soviet spearheads with concentrated tankbuster plane divisions that currently kill nothing wearing a tin foil hat or better). No possibility to help minor allies holding collapsing frontlines by giving them increased exports (e.g. most of my Romanian airgroups have 0 planes and have so for a long time (years), my Finns lack armaments that I have mountains of etc.). Boosting "firebrigade" units in some spots are difficult as they will refuse to use proper and available German equipment (instead craving the one or two captured SU-122s in the pool, while ~300 tigers and king tigers are collecting dust in showrooms in Berlin).

Conclusion: This is a very good historical simulation, and that is what it is.



Amem!
+1

The part about having Rom air groups with 0 planes(Italians even worse situation) is really annoying the crap out of me. Especially since I have some German air frames in the hundreds for the pool. Is this WAD? If not it's ridiculous and how about patching thse types issues before coming up with some lipstick on the UI. I could give a damm about the new new UI feature for showing HQ lines links on the map (shift Z or something). How about working on some of the issues/bugs that people keep complaining about? I'm just not sure what or why some things with WitE are not getting priority. Very frustrating. I know the devs are reading this, have seen no action recently on the major issues people are demonstrating. I'll just have to hope play testing with testers is why some fixes are taking longer. Which I can understand with a game this complex.

AIR, all the Axis allies used German planes.
Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com
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Tarhunnas
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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability

Post by Tarhunnas »

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

ORIGINAL: molchomor

I think axis players give up as the replayability is simply too low due to the inflexible nature of the axis side. You see early on how things will turn out and there is not much to do about it, to change the trend once the Soviets get the initiative. Examples: No possibility to adjust production to the current most critical needs. No bonus whatsoever by capturing oil/fuel/resources, so scratch that option too. No possibility to adapt your air strategy to the current situation and actually use your air superiority (e.g. switching from bombing airfields to breaking those armored Soviet spearheads with concentrated tankbuster plane divisions that currently kill nothing wearing a tin foil hat or better). No possibility to help minor allies holding collapsing frontlines by giving them increased exports (e.g. most of my Romanian airgroups have 0 planes and have so for a long time (years), my Finns lack armaments that I have mountains of etc.). Boosting "firebrigade" units in some spots are difficult as they will refuse to use proper and available German equipment (instead craving the one or two captured SU-122s in the pool, while ~300 tigers and king tigers are collecting dust in showrooms in Berlin).

Conclusion: This is a very good historical simulation, and that is what it is.



Amem!
+1

The part about having Rom air groups with 0 planes(Italians even worse situation) is really annoying the crap out of me. Especially since I have some German air frames in the hundreds for the pool. Is this WAD? If not it's ridiculous and how about patching thse types issues before coming up with some lipstick on the UI. I could give a damm about the new new UI feature for showing HQ lines links on the map (shift Z or something). How about working on some of the issues/bugs that people keep complaining about? I'm just not sure what or why some things with WitE are not getting priority. Very frustrating. I know the devs are reading this, have seen no action recently on the major issues people are demonstrating. I'll just have to hope play testing with testers is why some fixes are taking longer. Which I can understand with a game this complex.

As a onetime developer, even game developer, I understand that some things are easy to do (HQ lines for example i guess), while other things require more work or more testing to make sure they do not have unintended consequences. I am sure our input is read and appreciated, but there are probably no easy fixes for a lot of things that annoy us players. Add to that that some things annoy some people more while others are annoyed about other things, it is hard to satisfy everybody. That said, I think some more feedback from the developers like "We have seen this problem and we will see if there is some way to fix it, no promises, no timeframe" would alleviate a lot of the frustration.
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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability

Post by speedy.gh »

As the German opponent of Heliodorus04 in the -10 handicap game, I want to state that I didn't asking for stopping the game. It was you the one asking for finishing the game, despite I was willing to go on. By the way, I have already isolated Leningrad in turn 15 and was adjacent to Moscow that turn. Despite of this facts, I agree with many of the things you say, but it is not fair saying you get me to quit.

EDIT: I can not analyse and discuss our game (in a meeting now ;-), but will be very please to do so later on in this thread.

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